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2.4 Warrior suggestion.Follow

#52 Jan 28 2008 at 5:34 AM Rating: Default
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3,011 posts
Quote:
When you did you weren't exactly the best or most experienced player.


You're no "god" yourself bro, just because you've got that warglaive doesn't make you a know-it-all bad ***.

That being said, yes you are more experienced than I was and yes you do more things. But you're also a warrior and hence it's hard for you to see how strong your class is. I know you've also made a rogue, but you can't honestly say you play your rogue just as frequently.

"Ad Hominem attacks" usually mean you're grasping straws my friend.
#53 Jan 28 2008 at 5:48 AM Rating: Good
Shaolinz wrote:
Quote:
When you did you weren't exactly the best or most experienced player.


You're no "god" yourself bro, just because you've got that warglaive doesn't make you a know-it-all bad ***.

That being said, yes you are more experienced than I was and yes you do more things. But you're also a warrior and hence it's hard for you to see how strong your class is. I know you've also made a rogue, but you can't honestly say you play your rogue just as frequently.

"Ad Hominem attacks" usually mean you're grasping straws my friend.


Please. I sprinkle Ad Hominem attacks into every post. The "ad hominem means ur losing llo" line has been used many a time. Consider them like little raisins of superiority, sprinkled through the crunchy cereal of debate.

It's all part of a complete and healthy breakfast.

You're shrill, you're wrong, and you're pointless. You don't have much in-depth game knowledge and what you do remember is being transformed more and more into stereotypes. You've got an extremely strong victim's complex and, by necessity, offer nothing to support your 'arguments' other than a stream of tears that would put Jackie Kennedy to shame.

Look, when even;

Quote:
I most definitely think that Blizzard needs to up the crit chance on Execute.

It only crits like 90% of the time. Not good enough. Do you think a 2.5k Mortal Strike crit, followed by a 1.9k white crit, followed by a 2.2k Whirlwind crit and finishing off with a 6.5k Execute crit is enough to put me out of business?!

HAH! I laugh in the face of danger and metal-heads. Ptjuw. May my spit bring rust upon your plate armor.


is more well reasoned than your posts are, there's a big, big problem.
#55 Jan 28 2008 at 6:08 AM Rating: Decent
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362 posts
I play a warrior as well. So probably I cannot see how strong my class is (LOL).
I saw main tank in our guild loosing to 65 frost mage though. I needed 5 tries to return the favour of ganking me to well geared shadow priest even though he had some adds on him every time.
I was kitted by our hunter last time and loved being kited like a child.
I love well geared warlocks loosing 50 % health before I die, or killing me just after I kill them with dots. I love feral druids smart enough not to triger second wind. I love hitting them for 350 with only 2 pieces of PvP best gear missing.

Warrior when he does kill he makes it very brutal. Charge sound - 3 hits and enemy is down. This makes all the "omg warriors are overpowered" threads.
What happens when after those 3 hits enemy is still alive? Roll a warrior - you will find out.
Saying that warriors own 1v1 is just silly.
BTW I dont whine that warriors are weak. I have 42 k HKs 210 days /played on warrior. I started it when BWL was novelty. I PvPed in older then old AV and was rank 10 (family > WoW). I have been in a few teams with rating about 1900 where I was by far the best geared member.


As for Arena - warriors are great in 5v5 mainly - unless they get killed in first 10 seconds (Contary to believes warrior in zerg stance and maybe even Death Wish is very easy to kill). But in 2v2? 3v3? much less powerfull.
#57 Jan 28 2008 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
You loose your point....STOP winning about others class talents..The problem of the pvp is this:resilience and stamina....2 things that are so important for the pvp..BUT these are defence talents..so a pure offence characters,as the rogues or hunters, dont gain as much from these as warriors,pallas,sham who can def...
Blizz change the pvp gear...make not only res and stamina but give also enormous amount to AP and crit...if a rogue has 2500 ap and 40%crit we will see if we still having problems with warriors with huge amount of stamina and res..
.
I found it stupid to tell to a pure dps class to stop trying to get more dps and try to have more armor,res and life..Warriors they will allways benefit more from these stas than a rogue...thats is the problem!!!!!!!!!!
#58 Jan 28 2008 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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1,006 posts
Guys, the answer is simple. Don't nerf warriors - just complicate the user-end actions required to play.

Because, "LOL 3 Buttons I win!"

• Mortal Strike now requires warriors to enter a randomized seven digit code that changes every 30 seconds, before casting.

Edited, Jan 28th 2008 11:02am by EonSprinter
#59 Jan 28 2008 at 8:57 AM Rating: Decent
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3,011 posts

Quote:
• Mortal Strike now requires warriors to enter a randomized seven digit code that changes every 30 seconds, before casting.


Best idea by far >_>
#60 Jan 28 2008 at 9:49 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
STAY STEALTHED AND DONT CS thinking you can win


Haha riiiiight. You don't play a rogue do you? Anyway...Warriors are a bit overpowered. Sorry to say this to all of you warriors out there, but rogues are meant to be the highest single target dpsers out there, NOT a warrior. And right now, they are. So basically rogues are pretty damn gimpy. Warriors have the highest HP, highest armor, and have the highest crit. What does a rogue have against that? If we use evasion we're still screwed. In bg's, to kill a warrior by myself he has to be down to about 40%, and thats still not even a guarantee that he/she's gonna die. When one is at 100% health it takes about 4 or 5 people to kill the *******. One of my friends who's a very seasoned warrior even says he'll out dps me in instances and raids, which is very true if I'm not fully buffed and REALLY on top of my game. So all of you warriors out there saying that they shouldn't get nerfed (RP) STFU, because you should.
#61 Jan 28 2008 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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384 posts
BiOhAcKeR wrote:
Quote:
STAY STEALTHED AND DONT CS thinking you can win


Haha riiiiight. You don't play a rogue do you? Anyway...Warriors are a bit overpowered. Sorry to say this to all of you warriors out there, but rogues are meant to be the highest single target dpsers out there, NOT a warrior. And right now, they are. So basically rogues are pretty damn gimpy. Warriors have the highest HP, highest armor, and have the highest crit. What does a rogue have against that? If we use evasion we're still screwed. In bg's, to kill a warrior by myself he has to be down to about 40%, and thats still not even a guarantee that he/she's gonna die. When one is at 100% health it takes about 4 or 5 people to kill the *******. One of my friends who's a very seasoned warrior even says he'll out dps me in instances and raids, which is very true if I'm not fully buffed and REALLY on top of my game. So all of you warriors out there saying that they shouldn't get nerfed (RP) STFU, because you should.


Bad rogue.

Spec maces. Cheap shot, kidney shot, random mace stuns (your mace stuns proc a lot more than ours), riposte (no more immunity to disarm), evasion. Contrary to popular belief 1 overpower every 5 seconds isn't going to kill you. I've been beaten by more than a few mace rogues. Most of the rogues i play with have 10k hp, thats only 2k less than what i have.

Highest crit? Most mace warriors have around 33% crit. Rogues usually have the same or more. Highest armor? No not really. We take 10% more damage in berserker stance, putting us around where mail is for physical damage, and we take more magic damage than any other class. Shaman with shield have about the same armor as warriors.

We have 3 raiding fury warriors and 6 rogues in our guild. The rogues are ALWAYS ahead of the warriors and they are equally geared. We're working on Vashj and Kael and have cleared ZA (in case you think we're kara scrubs or something).
#62 Jan 28 2008 at 10:31 AM Rating: Default
27 posts
Quote:
Haha riiiiight. You don't play a rogue do you? Anyway...Warriors are a bit overpowered. Sorry to say this to all of you warriors out there, but rogues are meant to be the highest single target dpsers out there, NOT a warrior. And right now, they are. So basically rogues are pretty damn gimpy. Warriors have the highest HP, highest armor, and have the highest crit. What does a rogue have against that? If we use evasion we're still screwed. In bg's, to kill a warrior by myself he has to be down to about 40%, and thats still not even a guarantee that he/she's gonna die. When one is at 100% health it takes about 4 or 5 people to kill the *******. One of my friends who's a very seasoned warrior even says he'll out dps me in instances and raids, which is very true if I'm not fully buffed and REALLY on top of my game. So all of you warriors out there saying that they shouldn't get nerfed (RP) STFU, because you should.


Well, it's no wonder that you get destroyed by any warrior, look at your gear. You have almost 0 pvp gear, and if your 2 arena teams are any indication of your pvp skill, then you're sorely lacking. Just because you get destroyed by random fully pvp epic'd warrior, does NOT mean that the warrior class needs to be nerfed. I can't even count the number of times I've gone against ele shaman's, ice mages, any kind of lock, or even a hunter/rogue that actually _knew_ how to play their class and got destroyed. Do you hear me going and complaining that XXXX class beat me, so they should be nerfed to all oblivion? No, because it's part of the game. There is a rock to my scissor's, and there's a paper to my rock. If you don't like that, play another game.
#63 Jan 28 2008 at 10:52 AM Rating: Default
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3,011 posts
Quote:
Haha riiiiight. You don't play a rogue do you? Anyway...Warriors are a bit overpowered. Sorry to say this to all of you warriors out there, but rogues are meant to be the highest single target dpsers out there, NOT a warrior. And right now, they are. So basically rogues are pretty damn gimpy. Warriors have the highest HP, highest armor, and have the highest crit. What does a rogue have against that? If we use evasion we're still screwed. In bg's, to kill a warrior by myself he has to be down to about 40%, and thats still not even a guarantee that he/she's gonna die. When one is at 100% health it takes about 4 or 5 people to kill the *******. One of my friends who's a very seasoned warrior even says he'll out dps me in instances and raids, which is very true if I'm not fully buffed and REALLY on top of my game. So all of you warriors out there saying that they shouldn't get nerfed (RP) STFU, because you should.


Even I gotta agree you're going a bit over the top on that one. Warriors are overpowered but they're not THAT overpowered.
#64 Jan 28 2008 at 10:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,006 posts
The reason why rogues yell about nerfing warriors is because serious teams have no reason to choose a rogue instead of a warrior. We don't want to be the anti-warrior. Warriors beat us. I can live with that. What's most bothersome is that the class balance has consistently made a warrior a better choice than a rogue in most scenarios.

We want to be able to do something that warriors can't do better.

We're fine in PvE.

We're second-class in pvp.

Other classes have it worse than us - but we still feel discouraged.
#65 Jan 28 2008 at 11:01 AM Rating: Default
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3,011 posts
What he said.
#66 Jan 28 2008 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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842 posts
*ahem*

intercept has a base 30 second cooldown, reducible to 20 second cooldown with talents, and perhaps less with better gear. i would never know, as i'm not an extensive pvper.

shao - no, i wasn't geared well at all. i strung together various pieces of PvE gear to make the most of what i had, so i didn't have 10k health and armor unbuffed. i was using axe spec with plasma rat's hyper scythe on a build like this so i could dps in instances and do some pvp, and from there you can see i didn't have second wind talented.

i think RP made some good suggestions. if you guys didn't lose combo points when you switched targets, that would be a huge improvement, as would a longer range on some of your abilities. buffs to the weaker classes would also be good. i've been reading on the shaman forums about extensive QQ'ing that shamans need some form of cc, even a short term cc like a hex spell that would transform the target into a frog for ~6 seconds, or give flame shock a 50% chance to stun for 5 seconds or something. that would considerably improve shaman viability in smaller arenas, and somewhat shorten the gap we are talking about... leading to balance! since this isn't a thread about how warriors need to be knocked down a peg so that rogues can be better, right ;-)

#67 Jan 28 2008 at 11:35 AM Rating: Default
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3,011 posts
Quote:
*ahem*

intercept has a base 30 second cooldown, reducible to 20 second cooldown with talents, and perhaps less with better gear. i would never know, as i'm not an extensive pvper.

shao - no, i wasn't geared well at all. i strung together various pieces of PvE gear to make the most of what i had, so i didn't have 10k health and armor unbuffed. i was using axe spec with plasma rat's hyper scythe on a build like this so i could dps in instances and do some pvp, and from there you can see i didn't have second wind talented.

i think RP made some good suggestions. if you guys didn't lose combo points when you switched targets, that would be a huge improvement, as would a longer range on some of your abilities. buffs to the weaker classes would also be good. i've been reading on the shaman forums about extensive QQ'ing that shamans need some form of cc, even a short term cc like a hex spell that would transform the target into a frog for ~6 seconds, or give flame shock a 50% chance to stun for 5 seconds or something. that would considerably improve shaman viability in smaller arenas, and somewhat shorten the gap we are talking about... leading to balance! since this isn't a thread about how warriors need to be knocked down a peg so that rogues can be better, right ;-)


I like your nature, sorry I was quick to flame. Kind of what you have to do around here.

No, you wouldn't see what we're talking about from your current gear/spec. Arena gear enables the warrior to reduce their intercept cooldown to 15 seconds, and they really only start becoming beasts of unparalleled destruction when they start gearing up in season 2 gear. Yes, all of RP's suggestions would improve our performance in arena substantially, but warriors would still innately be better at us at our job since both of us have a similar role.

The nerf Tyrandor is suggesting would be largely comparable to the hemo nerf we so recently (and unjustly) received. Blizzard's logic in it was they wanted more people to spec subtlety. Instead of buffing the high end talents, they just moved all the good low ones up into the higher bracket (hemo still has the same damage it did before the HARP nerf, just now you have to spec 41 points into subtlety for it hence making it severely weaker). What Tyrandor is suggesting would do the same thing for PvP warriors: removing the healing debuff on mortal strike (or at least some of it) and putting it higher up in the tree so warriors cannot gain all of their good talents in one spec (namely Flurry). This would nerf warriors in pvp and wouldn't affect them at all in the other areas of the game, which is why I'd have to agree that it is the most sensible thing blizzard could do for the game.

So in short:
-Sorry I was quick to flame, as you can see it's rather "dog eat dog" out here.
-Your gear was not sufficient to see the terror warriors unleash.
-Warriors do need to be nerfed in arena pvp, at least to the point of where rogues can do their job comparatively (as the two classes do basically the same thing). This train of logic can be followed: Priests need to be nerfed to where Druids, Shamans and Paladins can equally perform in the role they do, Mages need to be nerfed to where Hunters can equally perform in that role, and Warlocks melt faces.
-Moving MS's healing debuff further down the tree would accomplish this without hurting the warrior in any other area.


Edited, Jan 28th 2008 1:36pm by Shaolinz
#68 Jan 28 2008 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
Shaolinz wrote:

-Warriors do need to be nerfed in arena pvp, at least to the point of where rogues can do their job comparatively (as the two classes do basically the same thing). This train of logic can be followed: Priests need to be nerfed to where Druids, Shamans and Paladins can equally perform in the role they do, Mages need to be nerfed to where Hunters can equally perform in that role, and Warlocks melt faces.


You really don't play anymore.
#69 Jan 28 2008 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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1,006 posts
Shao you're heading in the wrong direction, my brotha.
I don't want Warriors to be nerfed so that rogue and warr are comparable.

I want rogues to be given something unique that adds more depth and rogue viability to class composition. Rogues play like warriors right now because that's the option we'd been given. However, I don't think any of us chose rogue so that we could stand in one place and spam sinister strike.

These days, stunlocking just doesn't work, and we can't wtfpwnambushcrit20K clothies anymore.

Our class identity slipped. Honestly, blizzard has the right idea with buffing Subtlety - but they haven't exactly gotten it right yet.
#70 Jan 28 2008 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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57 posts
Warriors need difficulty. There needs to be a bigger difference between the crappy warriors and the good warriors.

They can play effectively into the tops of bg's by mindlessly mashing Intercept, Hamstring and MS. Maybe a SS and then Execute. The good ones actually change stances and use spell reflect. This results in a semi-skilled druid being able to carry a keyboard-turning warrior into the 2k's. It's ridiculous.

You compare this to what a rogue, mage, priest, or god forbid what a Shaman has to do, and it's easymode for Warriors.


Edited, Jan 28th 2008 3:17pm by Tromo
#71 Jan 28 2008 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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1,006 posts
Right but I already found the fix for that with:

EonSprinter wrote:
• Mortal Strike now requires warriors to enter a randomized seven digit code that changes every 30 seconds, before casting.


Edited, Jan 28th 2008 3:27pm by EonSprinter
#72 Jan 28 2008 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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1,395 posts
Mazra wrote:
Do you think a 2.5k Mortal Strike crit, followed by a 1.9k white crit, followed by a 2.2k Whirlwind crit and finishing off with a 6.5k Execute crit is enough to put me out of business?!

...Mortal Strike...
... Whirlwind...
... Execute...

Hm...

1 rage. 2 rage. 3 rage. 4 rage. 5 rage. 6 rage. 7 rage. 8 rage. 9 rage. 10 rage. 11 rage. 12 rage. 13 rage. 14 rage. 15 rage. 16 rage. 17 rage. 18 rage. 19 rage. 20 rage. 21 rage. 22 rage. 23 rage. 24 rage. 25 rage. 26 rage. 27 rage. 28 rage. 29 rage. 30 rage.
(MS payed for)
31 rage. 32 rage. 33 rage. 34 rage. 35 rage. 36 rage. 37 rage. 38 rage. 39 rage. 40 rage. 41 rage. 42 rage. 43 rage. 44 rage. 45 rage. 46 rage. 47 rage. 48 rage. 49 rage. 50 rage. 51 rage. 52 rage. 53 rage. 54 rage. 55 rage.
(WW payed for)
56 rage. 57 rage. 58 rage. 59 rage. 60 rage. 61 rage. 62 rage. 63 rage. 64 rage. 65 rage.
(1.9k Execrit payed for, Imp. Exe. anyone?)
66 rage. 67 rage.
(2k Execrit payed for)
68 rage. 69 rage. 70 rage. 71 rage. 72 rage. 73 rage. 74 rage. 75 rage. 76 rage. 77 rage. 78 rage. 79 rage. 80 rage. 81 rage. 82 rage. 83 rage. 84 rage. 85 rage. 86 rage. 87 rage. 88 rage. 89 rage. 90 rage.
(3k Execrit payed for)
91 rage. 92 rage. 93 rage. 94 rage. 95 rage. 96 rage. 97 rage. 98 rage. 99 rage. 100 rage. 101 rage. 102 rage. 103 rage. 104 rage. 105 rage. 106 rage. 107 rage. 108 rage. 109 rage. 110 rage. 111 rage. 112 rage. 113 rage.
4k Execrit payed for)

Oh wait... how much rage is a full rage bar again?

Ah ****, forgot you don't have 0 armour as a level 70 [insert clever class here]... oh well, back to the drawing board.
#73 Jan 28 2008 at 1:45 PM Rating: Decent
devzzz, Assassin Reject wrote:
More to the point, less flaming? Smiley: tongue

When I was reading it What I thought of was the nerf to rogues, and the justification bliz gave for it.

what blizzard kinda said wrote:
We want people to go deep into their talent trees and use waht we created


Clearly not the case with warriors.


Does that mean you are comparing Lolstep and Mutilate to Endless Rage?

If you're going to compare them at all at least make it to another totally useless 41 point talent.
#74 Jan 28 2008 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
The change can and should be subtle, too. Increase the range of certain finishers and Shiv (like 10 yards - nothing massive, but a decent bit larger than it is now. Possibly attached to Dirty Tricks). And make Combo Points non-target specific.

So what does that allow? Well... build combo points on the DPS target, and then Kidney Shot someone else. Lore-wise this might require a rename ("Kidney Blow") but it'd give them a more distinct flavor. Good damage on one target plus non-dispellable CC on a second one.

It might be too much in 2v2 but it'd certainly make them more interesting in 5v5.


Yeah, that's been suggested before and Blizzard has even said they'd be considering it.

It's no secret to anyone that target switching is one of the rogue's weakness. Good rogues do switch target when called upon, but no other class in the game suffer such a harsh penalty for doing so.

Ability like shadowstep just add salt in the wound... it begs to be a 'target' switcher ability, and while it can be used that way (especially to land a kick on a healer) you're still leaving your combo point behind.


But let's go with it. Beyond the ability to KS someone else then your main target for CC, what really gets me excited about the idea is to use Deadly Throw on Target B (healer) while I'm dpsing Target A.

There's two way to go about this:

1 - Combo points are on the Rogue, not the target. This is good because it means you'll 'always' have combo points. Target switching become a painless task.

2 - Combo points are still on the target, but you can build them up on more then one. This is both more limiting and more powerful then option 1. It's more limiting because you need to hit the other target(s) at least once (drive by shiv?), but it's more powerful because you don't 'lose' your combo point by switching target.

The reason why I keep mentionning Deadly Throw (DT) is because it's going to be the game breaker in this case. The ability to change target turns DT into a monster. Which might be what rogues need... or it might be to much.

DT has no cooldown and only requires 1 CB. Granted, it has a travel time (and with quick reaction time, you can avoid the school lock effect, but it still slow down the spell).

This would add a rather impressive amount of control to a rogue. Combined with a cheap attack (Hemo) or even Adrenaline Rush, a rogue will be able to do Hemo - Switch target DT - Hemo - Switch target DT, etc.

Granted, eventually the Energy cost will catch up to him, but well played (or in combination with AR) this mean you can stop a healer from healing while still doing your white damage and stacking wound poison for a while.

In 2v2, This will be deadly in 2 DPS team. And it's an indirect buff to druid. They rely on instant cast spell, this DT dance will barely affect them while and make druid even more desired as healers.

In 3, it would give Rogues even more ability to lock down a healer. I know that this would make my specific 3v3 combo even more powerful. 3s is already our bracket tho, we'd just be even more powerful in it.

In 5? I don't know. Most of my 5v5 experience come from my mage. I can't see it hurting, but will it be enough?

Granted, this is only a problem with Option 1. Option 2 takes care of that.

Option 2 however, make us more powerful in a different way. Assuming you've build a CP on the healer (and you'd be stupid not to do it!), a DT or KS on the healer followed by a 5 points Evis (with cold blood if applicable) would be pretty bad ***. The equivalent of a mage using CS on your healer and then nailing you with POM+Pyro when you're at 30% health (okay, it does less damage, but you get the point).

Now I'd jump for joy if this were to happen. There's really no way without some playtesting to see if this buff would make us viable in 5s or not. But it would certainly be a really big buff.





Edited, Jan 28th 2008 5:10pm by Tyrandor
#75 Jan 28 2008 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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8,779 posts
i maintain that daggers need to have a native resilience ignore based on rogue attack power, something alone the lines of 10% of a rogues AP in resilience ignored.

its a pvp buff that doesnt affect pve in any way and it counters the stat that killed daggers while also letting daggers shine in their own way. a rogue with 1600 ap (not hard to obtain in pvp with the right gemming and enchants) would ignore 160 resilience when using daggers. if the value is too low to be effective it can be upped a bit, but i think the core idea is strong.

nothing needs to be done to warriors. rogues just need the niche that was murdered by resilience back.
#76 Jan 28 2008 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
Hmm.

Realistically speaking, they'd need to rebalance DT if they made this change. Make the PvP glove interrupt innate but give it a cooldown, then change the glove bonus to give it a shorter CD (nothing excessive - I'm thinking Earth Shock-range cooldown, but they are - correctly - wary of giving people the ability to spam interrupts).

Given that, you wouldn't even need to change the way KS works really. Maybe an "additional range on finishers talent" period as part of some talent somewhere, but you're right... DT already fits the bill for additional CC while you deal damage elsewhere if they made change 1. Which I think is the more logical format for the change, although both could work.

Quote:

In 2v2, This will be deadly in 2 DPS team. And it's an indirect buff to druid. They rely on instant cast spell, this DT dance will barely affect them while and make druid even more desired as healers.


I'd just say 'law of unintended consequences', but in what way is this a good thing?

I'd say it's not a pure Druid nerf, though. Assuming Druid/Warrior team, you'd get on the Warrior and then fling DTs at the Druid to stop him from throwing CCs while your partner (presumably Priest) nails him with Mana Burns. Same principle with a Druid/Warlock, although (as with most things) it'd be more difficult to organize and pull off.

Still, the whole principle has quite a lot of merit. And no, no applause is neccessary! But no tip is too small.

I'm curious as to what changes are coming in 2.4; supposedly the PTR will hit this week, or at least some Blue previews.
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