2.4 promises a lot of pvp balance change and with it, comes the possibility that the warrior issue will finally be addressed.
This post assume that you know what the Arena situation is like. That you're able to read chart. And that you know that warriors are the most highly represented and succesful class in Arena for S1, S2 and so far, S3 as well. Those are facts, not opinions.
The way I see it, there's 3 ways to solve this issue...
Buff Everybody: Tricky and time consuming. Also prone to failure. Druids have been buffed a lot since S1 in order to make them viable in 5v5. That didn't work... it only made them monstrous in 2v2.
It's a lot of work and a very long process. Unlikely.
Rework Synergy: The main reason why warriors are so beefy is because they synergise well and almost instantly with any other class you put them with. Most class don't synergise has good with each other. Reworking the game so they do would achieve perfect balance.
However, it's even more unlikely then the first solution. This would take years and the game resulting from those change would likely have very little similarity with what we know now.
Nerf the Strong Class: By far the easiest fix. Lowering the power level of the classes that on top would allow other class to shine and catch up. Usually there's some debating about a class being too powerful or not... in the case of Warriors, you can't really make a logical stand that they aren't at the top of the food chain.
So yes, what I'm about to suggest is a nerf to Warriors.
I'm posting this in the rogue forum as a sounding board... and also because I know that tons of Warriors read this board anyway, so I'll be getting their feedback anyway.
So here's the suggestion:
Lower the Healing Debuff of Mortal Strike by 25%.
Makes the Improved Mortal Strike Talent restore 5% to the debuff per talent point.
This would effectively mean Warrior need to go 40 in Arms to be effective in pvp. 25% debuff MS would make them nowhere as effective as they used to be in pvp.
This doesn't nerf prot warriors and the ability to tank.
This doesn't nerf Fury warriors and their dps.
Hell, it doesn't even nerf the 5 warriors who use MS to dps, since the MS damage remain unchanged. Nor does it nerf Warrior leveling as MS.
The nerf isn't even that bad, since your MS does get more powerful from Imp MS, it isn't like Hemo/Sinister Calling, where even after taking the talent, Hemo is still nerfed.
Consequences:
This would be the end of the of the current MS/Flurry spec that is so popular with warriors.
While Warriors would gain a faster and slightly harder hitting MS, they would lose Flurry, Weapon Mastery (Now weaker to Disarm) and/or Sweeping Strike.
Losing Weapon Mastery in itself is a DPS nerf, since target will now dodge you more often... but the biggest thing is losing Flurry.
Beyond the dps increase (which helps of course), what Flurry does is increase rage generation. With a crit, you gain faster with attack which in turn increase your rage generation. Even 'rage starving' a warrior doesn't mean much, with a bit of luck (even more so if he's mace) he'll get plenty of Rage just by beating on you anyway.
While I don't know how much of a Rage nerf losing 3/5 Flurry (or even 5/5 as some Warrior did go 31/30) would be, it would certainly decrease the rage generation of Warriors... and all that for what? So you can go 40/21 and keep sweeping Strike?
I doubt many would go for that at all. In fact, I think many Warrior will go with Endless Rage, to counter the rage generation nerf. Some might even go crazy and try putting more then 41 point in Arms, dropping of some point from Enrage...
The end result would be a similar Rage generation gain, with nerfed damage, and Warriors using their 41 point talents.
And ultimately, isn't people using their 41 points talents what Blizzard wants?
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2.4 Warrior suggestion.Follow
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Quote:
Lower the Healing Debuff of Mortal Strike by 25%.
Makes the Improved Mortal Strike Talent restore 5% to the debuff per talent point.
This would effectively mean Warrior need to go 40 in Arms to be effective in pvp. 25% debuff MS would make them nowhere as effective as they used to be in pvp.
Makes the Improved Mortal Strike Talent restore 5% to the debuff per talent point.
This would effectively mean Warrior need to go 40 in Arms to be effective in pvp. 25% debuff MS would make them nowhere as effective as they used to be in pvp.
This actually makes a lot of sense, and makes warriors spec endless rage instead of hyrbids w/o gimping the whole class. Great suggestion Tyr.
But then again, blizz might just nerf the other classes and make things the same as they are now.
Edited, Jan 26th 2008 5:36pm by borzan
A post suggesting that Warriors get nerfed written by a Rogue? This is new and informative, and should be investigated at once.
I've never seen a post of this type before!
I've never seen a post of this type before!
You want me to write in the mage forum rp? I also got a 70 mage with which I arena. Will that make you feel better?
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
You want me to write in the mage forum rp? I also got a 70 mage with which I arena. Will that make you feel better?
Well, at this point this is "QQ, Warriors are unfair and everyone else is underpowered in comparison" thread #103 from you, thus eclipsing the combined records of "AV is totally unfair" and "why are you 0/0/61" threads. I applaud you on the accomplishment, but what is your point?
Rogues think Warriors are overpowered? I kind of got that the first ten times. A specific critique of why your post is wrong has been done many, many times before and it hasn't exactly made you stop crying about it. So what's the point?
It's like talking to a Shaolinz-shaped brick wall... er... more like talking to Shaolinz.
Quote:
A post suggesting that Warriors get nerfed written by a Rogue? This is new and informative, and should be investigated at once.
I've never seen a post of this type before!
I've never seen a post of this type before!
A warrior mocking a rogue about a nerf to warriors?
never seen a post of this type before!
More to the point, less flaming? 
When I was reading it What I thought of was the nerf to rogues, and the justification bliz gave for it.
Clearly not the case with warriors.
We decided to do some 3v3 the other night. It went terribly bad, and most teams had a warrior. There just isn't much I can to against a warrior. I go for a warrior? endless rage, I ignore a warrior? I die...
If I had a rogue on me it wouldn't have been that hard, but warriors are just insane.
I tihnk the mortal strike debuff reworking would be nice, and it isn't as harsh as what happened to rogues either.
When I was reading it What I thought of was the nerf to rogues, and the justification bliz gave for it.
what blizzard kinda said wrote:
We want people to go deep into their talent trees and use waht we created
Clearly not the case with warriors.
We decided to do some 3v3 the other night. It went terribly bad, and most teams had a warrior. There just isn't much I can to against a warrior. I go for a warrior? endless rage, I ignore a warrior? I die...
If I had a rogue on me it wouldn't have been that hard, but warriors are just insane.
I tihnk the mortal strike debuff reworking would be nice, and it isn't as harsh as what happened to rogues either.
in all honesty
what if they left warriors alone
and changed wound instead?
perhaps 10% per stack, 30% app rate like is it now
but vile poisons get changed
increase the effect/damage of all rogue poisons by 1/2/4% and increase resistance to dispel effect by 15/30/45%
changes crip: 26%
changes mind numb: 64%
changes damages on all by +4%
BUT changes woudn to 14% a stack
thats 70% heal debuff, but dispellable
that would give rogues the upper hand in that area, instantly doing 3 things
1: making rogue higher priority as far a 'kill first' or 'focus fire'
2: giving people a choice... you want better rounded character (warrior) or more of a anti-healer character (rogue)
3: it would make us WANTED in all arena brackets, even moreso then now
imagine sl/sl but it barely gains any life back... imagine a disc pri trying to survive a rogue without burning PS early... elemental shamans would be so focuses on clearing poisons in 3s that lack a druid
that 1 talent change would give us a great effect, and wouldnt be overbearing at all imo
just give us a reason (finally) to clear-cut take a rogue over a warrior
what if they left warriors alone
and changed wound instead?
perhaps 10% per stack, 30% app rate like is it now
but vile poisons get changed
increase the effect/damage of all rogue poisons by 1/2/4% and increase resistance to dispel effect by 15/30/45%
changes crip: 26%
changes mind numb: 64%
changes damages on all by +4%
BUT changes woudn to 14% a stack
thats 70% heal debuff, but dispellable
that would give rogues the upper hand in that area, instantly doing 3 things
1: making rogue higher priority as far a 'kill first' or 'focus fire'
2: giving people a choice... you want better rounded character (warrior) or more of a anti-healer character (rogue)
3: it would make us WANTED in all arena brackets, even moreso then now
imagine sl/sl but it barely gains any life back... imagine a disc pri trying to survive a rogue without burning PS early... elemental shamans would be so focuses on clearing poisons in 3s that lack a druid
that 1 talent change would give us a great effect, and wouldnt be overbearing at all imo
just give us a reason (finally) to clear-cut take a rogue over a warrior
Quote:
And ultimately, isn't people using their 41 points talents what Blizzard wants?
You win.
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Edited, Jan 26th 2008 9:38pm by FletusSanguine
FletusSanguine wrote:
Badly Formatted ASCII
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I had to scroll my screen way out just to make out what that was.
And I'm still not sure WTF No U-Turn means in this instance.
And I'm still not sure WTF No U-Turn means in this instance.
Thank you for that RP. As for what it means, it's pointless. Just like this dead horse of a topic.
It'd be better to completely remove the healing debuff from an untalented MS altogether. You don't need anti healing spells for anything except pvp so it wouldn't affect your "rawr DPS war" any at all.
Quote:
Well, at this point this is "QQ, Warriors are unfair and everyone else is underpowered in comparison" thread #103 from you, thus eclipsing the combined records of "AV is totally unfair" and "why are you 0/0/61" threads. I applaud you on the accomplishment, but what is your point?
The number of times I've complained about an issue shouldn't affect the validity of the complaint.
Quote:
Rogues think Warriors are overpowered? I kind of got that the first ten times. A specific critique of why your post is wrong has been done many, many times before and it hasn't exactly made you stop crying about it. So what's the point?
By who? You?
Or do you mean the usual argument that can basically summed up by 'Warrior players are somehow more skilled then the average player. That's why the class dominate.' thing that makes no real sense and is based on impossible to prove assumption?
Or wait, some of the following gems?
We are more gear dependent. (Never ming they are gearing faster, because they win more)
We need a healer. (Never mind every strong makeup has a healer)
What about under geared warriors they will be free HKs. (What is different about any other class? Try going in full green as a mage in Arena)
We suck 1v1. (Even if this is true complaining about being bad in an area of the game that doesn't even matter is no justification for being the best everywhere that counts)
If by specific critique you mean, someone saying 'No! U R wrong!'. Then yes, you're right. That's been done many time before. Something with more substance thought... not really, no.
You're usually extremely evasive and spend your time telling people they are wrong while saying close to nothing of your own opinion or very generic canned response, the equivalent of 'Yes, there's a problem. I hope they fix it. The way you want to fix it is wrong. But I'm not going to tell you why, or how I believe it can be fixed' when it comes to pvp balance argument.
The only way to not be aware that warriors are dominating arenas and have been for the last 2 season is either ignorance, or denial. The numbers are out there. Faced with that, how can it be logically argued that the class doesn't need to be toned down (or everybody else to be toned up)?
Is the nerf I'm suggesting over the top? Not enough? All debatable. But that something needs to change in order for balance to be attained isn't debatable. Unless you think the game is balanced right now?
What can I say, I like talking about balance and stuff like that. Actually discussing possible fix is more interesting to me then pretending there isn't a problem and not talking about it.
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 3:06am by Tyrandor
RPZip wrote:
...
and still people think Warriors arent overpowered at all but perfectly balanced
-.-
And hey, im not blaming you, if i had a class which was superior against any other class i also wouldn't want they nerfed it.
But what you are doing is the same as:
Someone stealing a cookie while everyone saw it and still regretting he didnt :S
I always get vaguely depressed when I see this type of thread.
See, Tyr, you've clearly played the game a lot. So surely you've figured out by now that Blizzard's general approach to fixing class balance through patches is a game of trial and error. They can't always predict how the players are going to respond to a change, and sometimes really subtle ones effect the way entire classes approach the game. So they basically take pot shots based on what they know and hope that it works out. It's the buff-nerf-buff cycle. It's not as totally stupid as it sounds.
The thing that really gets me is how people seem to think it matters a huge deal. So your rogue isn't doing well in 5v5 arena since patch 2.X? Wait till patch 2.Y when that problem will be fixed and some other class has to hold the wet sh*tty end of the stick for a few months. Hell, just wait until arena itself becomes outdated by some other new type of PvP. It'll happen. Until then, what gives with the complaining all the time? Just calm down and play the game. Arena not working out? Well what the hell did you do when you logged on before Arena was invented? Go do that instead. Not having fun with your rogue? Re-roll. There are what, eight other classes?
It's actually irrelevant whether or not your argument is valid or your research checks out. Because your arguing is really just a waste of time you could spend...playing this game which dominates our lives. I mean, I hear Shaolinz or someone say "I quit the game because Blizzard made my rogue crap" and I'm just like, grow up. It's a game. It's not worth the amount of time you guys spend b*tching about it.
Oh, check it. First star. When did that happen?
Edit: In case you take this the wrong way, I actually agree with most of Tyr's points. Warriors really are Roguebane. I just don't think it's as big a deal as you make out.
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 6:14am by zepoodle
See, Tyr, you've clearly played the game a lot. So surely you've figured out by now that Blizzard's general approach to fixing class balance through patches is a game of trial and error. They can't always predict how the players are going to respond to a change, and sometimes really subtle ones effect the way entire classes approach the game. So they basically take pot shots based on what they know and hope that it works out. It's the buff-nerf-buff cycle. It's not as totally stupid as it sounds.
The thing that really gets me is how people seem to think it matters a huge deal. So your rogue isn't doing well in 5v5 arena since patch 2.X? Wait till patch 2.Y when that problem will be fixed and some other class has to hold the wet sh*tty end of the stick for a few months. Hell, just wait until arena itself becomes outdated by some other new type of PvP. It'll happen. Until then, what gives with the complaining all the time? Just calm down and play the game. Arena not working out? Well what the hell did you do when you logged on before Arena was invented? Go do that instead. Not having fun with your rogue? Re-roll. There are what, eight other classes?
It's actually irrelevant whether or not your argument is valid or your research checks out. Because your arguing is really just a waste of time you could spend...playing this game which dominates our lives. I mean, I hear Shaolinz or someone say "I quit the game because Blizzard made my rogue crap" and I'm just like, grow up. It's a game. It's not worth the amount of time you guys spend b*tching about it.
Oh, check it. First star. When did that happen?
Edit: In case you take this the wrong way, I actually agree with most of Tyr's points. Warriors really are Roguebane. I just don't think it's as big a deal as you make out.
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 6:14am by zepoodle
zepoodle wrote:
The thing that really gets me is how people seem to think it matters a huge deal. So your rogue isn't doing well in 5v5 arena since patch 2.X? Wait till patch 2.Y when that problem will be fixed and some other class has to hold the wet sh*tty end of the stick for a few months. Hell, just wait until arena itself becomes outdated by some other new type of PvP. It'll happen. Until then, what gives with the complaining all the time?
Sooo...We shouldn't complain about something that just ruined a key feature of what we pay to enjoy? We should just sit there for months? We complain because it is a way to vent and to get our ideas heard.
Do you really think anyone important is listening?
Isnt this one of the ways Blizz gets there talents changes also? Correct me if I'm wrong but they read the threads players write to see what the latest patch does to each and every class. So really this is just fine and sure alot of the time it will come off like ******** but guess what, you cant get the ball rolling unless you push it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, its really funny the people that complain about people's complaining....? (I think I wrote that right! rofl!)
Just my 2 cents
I guess what I'm trying to say is, its really funny the people that complain about people's complaining....? (I think I wrote that right! rofl!)
Just my 2 cents
i hope to GOD blizzard doesnt listen to the majority of their players on the forums when it comes to class balance. this game would be such a collection of horribleness that it would be unplayable.
I am pretty sure Blizzard has promised a number of pvp "changes" in 2.4. Without getting too specific about how to do it, I just think it is time another class took over the top spot. If you believe wow-census, the number of people playing each class is approximately even, with warriors being the most played. Since this game is really about entertainment, isn't it time the other 8/9ths of the wow population had a shot at the top?
Granted, the class that would take over is probably druid.
Granted, the class that would take over is probably druid.
Quote:
The thing that really gets me is how people seem to think it matters a huge deal. So your rogue isn't doing well in 5v5 arena since patch 2.X? Wait till patch 2.Y when that problem will be fixed and some other class has to hold the wet sh*tty end of the stick for a few months. Hell, just wait until arena itself becomes outdated by some other new type of PvP. It'll happen. Until then, what gives with the complaining all the time?
Ultimately, I like to complain. I'd rather not have anything to complain about of course, but given something to complaint about, I enjoy discussing it, debating it, analysing it, etc.
If you don't... well, no one's putting a gun to your head and forcing to read my posts, right? :P They've got the big obvious purple name beside them, pretty easy to avoid I'd say. Forums are places to exchanges and discuss ideas - not only to ask for build advices - if you don't want to exchange and discuss an idea, well, don't.
Quote:
It's actually irrelevant whether or not your argument is valid or your research checks out. Because your arguing is really just a waste of time you could spend...playing this game which dominates our lives.
I wrote this while I was at work. >_>
Quote:
In case you take this the wrong way, I actually agree with most of Tyr's points. Warriors really are Roguebane. I just don't think it's as big a deal as you make out.
This truly has a nothing to do with Warrior being the bane of Rogues.
Honestly, I should have made a sock and posted this. Or made the post on the Mage Board - I do have a level 70 mage that I arena with plenty. My Frost Mage eats warriors for breakfeast. I don't quite see how that changes anything to the situation. I know most people only have 1 level 70 character, or at the very least only 1 they arena with... that doesn't mean everybody does. Nor does it mean everybody is plagued with the same class-centric view you suffer from.
The "QQ moar rogues!!11!!!" thing going on here is just plain retarded and honestly something I expected out of the Oboards, not Alla.
Warriors are the most dominating class across the board in Arena. Believe it or not, this affect every single class in the game, not just rogues.
Funny thing is, on other forums where I've posted this has been received rather positively, even from warriors. But then again, the Alla warrior crowd is pretty damn rabid about refusing to see what's directly in front of them.
One of the key argument thrown around when talking about a warrior pvp fix is 'How can you fix them in pvp without hurting them in pve?'. Well, here's a way. And I guess the implication that it can be done (and fairly easily too) is so mind boggling that you'd all go directly to flaming rather then debating. Duly noted.
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 12:46pm by Tyrandor
your suggestions to nerf warrior pvp indeed would not gimp warrior pve. however, the loss of pvp dps from not being able to spec flurry would have to be looked into before blindly forcing warriors to respec 41 poitns into arms by making imp MS a necessary talent in order to have the full healing debuff... it's balance you're calling for, right? and endless rage would have to be improved. the rage gain from endless rage is hardly 'endless'... hell, it's hardly noticeable.
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 12:57pm by fromanthebarbarian
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 12:57pm by fromanthebarbarian
Well, keep in mind that it is meant to be a nerf.
The point isn't to keep them at the same strenght by moving talent points around... it is to lower their overall power.
Technically the Mortal Strike ability would hit 5% harder. It would also be on a 5 second CD, so technically even more spammable.
But I'm fully aware that this doesn't come close to the dps lost of Weapon Mastery and Flurry. But that's the point :P
Again, I'm not sure if Endless Rage would make up for the lost of Flurry for Rage generation (somehow, I assumed it would). And if it doesn't, hitting Warriors with both a dps nerf and a rage generation nerf might be overkill. If that turns out to be the case, Endless Rage is a pretty easy to scale ability anyway - just increase the %.
The point isn't to keep them at the same strenght by moving talent points around... it is to lower their overall power.
Technically the Mortal Strike ability would hit 5% harder. It would also be on a 5 second CD, so technically even more spammable.
But I'm fully aware that this doesn't come close to the dps lost of Weapon Mastery and Flurry. But that's the point :P
Again, I'm not sure if Endless Rage would make up for the lost of Flurry for Rage generation (somehow, I assumed it would). And if it doesn't, hitting Warriors with both a dps nerf and a rage generation nerf might be overkill. If that turns out to be the case, Endless Rage is a pretty easy to scale ability anyway - just increase the %.
Quote:
By who? You?
Or do you mean the usual argument that can basically summed up by 'Warrior players are somehow more skilled then the average player. That's why the class dominate.' thing that makes no real sense and is based on impossible to prove assumption?
<snip>
The only way to not be aware that warriors are dominating arenas and have been for the last 2 season is either ignorance, or denial. The numbers are out there. Faced with that, how can it be logically argued that the class doesn't need to be toned down (or everybody else to be toned up)?
*sigh* Fine. You want to play?
The argument made is never really "Warriors are overpowered". The argument is always, always, always "Warriors are better than I am and therefore I am mad". Usually followed by some variant of "I wish I was a Warrior; please help me", mixed with "These are the ways in which they whoop me in a 1v1 and are horribly unfair, QQ".
Quote:
This truly has a nothing to do with Warrior being the bane of Rogues.
Honestly, I should have made a sock and posted this. Or made the post on the Mage Board - I do have a level 70 mage that I arena with plenty. My Frost Mage eats warriors for breakfeast. I don't quite see how that changes anything to the situation.
In the words of Penn and Teller, bullsh*t.
Skimming through SK-Gaming's stats (and admittedly, I'm using the default view since I don't know a good way to make it give me more detailed information).... Running off 2v2, the dominant class is Druids. Running off 3v3, the dominant class is actually Rogues (gasp) with Druids in a close second. Running off 5v5, the dominant class is actually Priests, with Warriors, Paladins, Mages and Shaman running in an approximate tie.
Quote:
Rework Synergy: The main reason why warriors are so beefy is because they synergise well and almost instantly with any other class you put them with. Most class don't synergise has good with each other. Reworking the game so they do would achieve perfect balance.
Well, god knows that it's important to synergize. "Warrior plus healer" (more accurately, Dispels) is easy to understand. "Rogue plus more damage" is also pretty easy to understand, though, so I'm not sure what the understanding synergy issue is.
Rogues have fairly strong burst CC and damage, as well as a (quite good) reconnect ability. The problem in 2v2 Arenas is that Druid is the FotM healer and it absolutely dominates Rogues (actually, any class) and does not synergize well with Rogues. Druids are the ultimate CC healer at this point.
Blind and Cyclone being on the same cooldown means that Rogues are a fairly weak 2v2 combo since they don't play nice with Druids. Warriors and Warlocks do. The healer that Rogues do synergize well with is Priests, and they're kind of on the weaker side of the 2v2 spectrum at the moment. Nerf Druids in 2v2 and Priests (with Rogues) come out to play, so where were we going with this again?
Rogues are already dominant in 3v3 and the issues they have in 5v5 have been discussed by pretty much anyone who could possibly ever read this forum many, many, many, many times before.
It's gone beyond
. It's gone beyond "Revenge of the Living Zombie Horses who want your BRAAAAAAAAAINS" levels. This is "Planet of the Dead Horses", where at the end of the QQ thread we see the Statue of Liberty buried in sand and realize that it's 'been Earth all along!'. Edited, Jan 27th 2008 2:00pm by RPZip
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