Alliance Warlock - Race?Follow

idd, but if looks are what matter most then you belong on a PVE / roleplaying server (a.k.a carebear servers). now yeah, it's your money, you can play how you like. but if you're planning to do any real pvp OR wish to aim for the best then there are really only a few races you can choose.

alliance: gnome
horde: (in order for pvp) undead, orc, blood elf (in order for pve) orc, undead, bloodelf (you can argue for Belf over undead, but personnaly i think wotf is to good to pass by and arcane torrent is effectively just a free lifetap, so important for other casters, but not so much for us)

has my name been mentioned?

of course i am the better lock, btw.

the thing on this board is just that you only get rated down and rarely if ever rated up.

I hate this stupid argument. What if you roll a druid, you like staring at big fat bear *** all day? Grow up.

For PVP, undead > gnome > orc > blood elf > human

I'd trade my epic'd out gnome lock on a PVE server for an undead 68+ lock on a PVP server in a second if it were legal. Even if they were naked with 1 copper in the bags, I'd make the switch in a heartbeat. I tried rerolling, but meh too boring going 1-70 again.

Honestly if you're rolling for PVP purposes, don't gimp yourself and go alliance, they're terrible at BG's, where you'll spend hundreds of hours gearing yourself up at 70.



How wouldn't you vanish? We don't have any bleed effects

The only way you'll let a rogue not vanish, is when it bugs out. But then you didn't beat him by skill, his vanish just failed because Blizz are lazy and haven't fixed this well known bug for 3 years.

CloS->vanish.

Edited, Jan 26th 2008 3:58pm by mikelolol

To Jenova:



I'm not going to resort to name-calling, because it's only used by immature people. More than that, you simply have your head in your *** - at least loki gives some semblance of reasoning. Also, please read before posting - I already stated why horde racials are better than alliance. Thank you Mr (?) Parrot.



Actually, my WSG and EotS scores are better (for kills:deaths), although I've recently been playing AV for the tokens (required for gear). And when I do post my scores, please note that I sacrifice myself for team objectives - without ruining my score. As for AV as a whole, I guess you've never played in which you had a competent defense.



Pretty much everyone in my guild who arena has asked me to be on their team - and I've also gotten offers from the top alliance guild on the server (or used to be - AI might be? blah, idk) Karma. Simply put, I'm not going to attach my name to a team where I can beat every player in it in solo pvp - you learn less than playing against people who destroy you.



Again, read before posting, tyvm. I was making an allusion to previous posts of his in separate threads in relation to "equity" and "play-style" between build types.



It doesn't imply anything about anything - only that the person who created the phrase needs to retake a high-school english class. If player B has more survivability, A will die first; if B's offense outweighs A's defense, A will die first.

You still haven't confronted my point - even if a rogue were to wait for perception to end, it would give your team that much more time to respawn. I fail to see how this diminishes survivability.



1. Do your research - I'm on a global pvp server.
2. It fits my play-style; I'm not gimping myself in the least. You're basically saying something similar to "Destro is the only way to pvp because demo and affliction both suck for burst damage".



I'm sorry that I'm not a lazy sob who sits on her *** and waits for a gimp - constant movement and constant view changes (to see an inc asap) is the way to go, imo. If a stealthed player notices perception or not, it doesn't make a difference - either you will catch them unawares (or with additional distance in-between the two of you) or they will "wait" - and give you additional time for reinforcements. 2v1 is a great form of survivability imo.

I'm not replying to anything you post until you confront my issues - instead of repeating your unsupported point of view. Seriously - take your head out of your *** and make a reasoned argument. You get 1/10 pts for the FF7 reference, but you still /fail.
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To Loki:



I do pvp regularly, I simply haven't been playing the same amount of time as you have, so my overall kills are lower. Honestly, PvP and raids are the only thing interesting in WoW - so I've devoted myself to figuring out what works. Whether you think my opinion matters or not doesn't really matter to me - I've gotten everything I need to learn from all of you a while ago (although if you have any info on warrior or priest pvp, I'd love to hear it - I'm a novice at those classes).

.

I've never had LoS problems because I've never given an enemy time to go anywhere. Also, with your dots ticking and drain-life going, how can you a) "lose sight" of the druid, b) be at a hp disadvantage from being rooted, and c) gimp yourself by not making use of your demon?



iHoT is an aoe fear that doesn't require targeting - or am I ******** everyone by saying so? Also, assuming that they sprint in to attack, you've just wasted one of their most important cds - kiting should be that much easier. Now assume they "immediately" react to the iHoT and either trinket, WoTF, or CoS - you now have the time to target them, and get off a d/c - thus wasting another one of their cds (CoS the exception), and have a chance to cast normal fear (thus wasting their third cd - but giving you maximum distance). Once it gets to this point, you've won, unless you're an idiot. Now, assuming CoS is popped instead, you're in "trouble"; this is the time to pop a bubble and wait for CoS to end. If you're decently geared, you should easily be able to stay alive (albeit with only a few thousand hp) - hs, then d/c - fear - etc to a win. How do I know this works? Because at least 1/5 of rogues (the good ones at least) - do sprint in when they see me using perception.

Oh, and for EotS - you can tell if there is a cloaked player in three circumstances (coming across a bridge to a tower). The first is to see them cloak at their end of the bridge (stupid player), the second is to see a non-stealthed player wait for "reinforcements" aka the stealthed player before proceeding, and finally - when there is absolutely *no* pressure on the tower at all, and you're the only one guarding it.



It depends on play-style.



You still lose the time it takes you to pop your racial - which is at least a half second, or 3-4 yards.



Are you making points for me? You're supposing everything on the other player being stupid enough to let you leave their melee range before they can re-incapacitate you. Perception creates a virtual bubble - either the enemy won't attack for the duration, or it will give you 15 yards distance (much better than a wasted gcd and being stuck within 5 yards - melee range).

[quote]Escape Artist works on everyone, every time.[/quote]

Yes, but how effective is it in taking you out of melee range before a well-played enemy can re-incapacitate you?

[quote] Perception works against rogues, [/quote]

Quoted for lack of truth. Any stealthed players.

[quote]only if they're too dumb to see the buff, only if they're too dumb to sprint, only if they're too dumb to approach from behind, and all of that, only if you saw them coming before they dropped into stealth.[/quote]

To repeat myself (because it apparently isn't sinking in): if they see the buff or not is immaterial - it will either give you time to respawn/reinforce, focus on other attackers (2v1 situation), or give you the drop on them without sacrificing initial distance. If they approach from behind, iHoT handles it unless they pop CoS before hand - in which case you can easily whether their attack, then trink + d/c + fear when CoS ends ftw. If you pay attention, you can easily tell when stealthed players are in the area; if you don't - and they try to vanish for a second attack, you can tract them in stealthed form (instead of sitting down to eat/drink).

[quote]Survival is key to doing anything. ... Yes, 1 on 1, if you kill the other guy, you're the last to die, but for any PvP that's going to matter there are a lot more people in the game than just you and 1 other.[/quote]

As I said for Jenova - the ability to see and a avoid a rogue before they are in attack range is a great form of survival; even if they wait for it to end before attacking - that gives your team a chance for respawns (this increases overall survivability, no?).

If you are fighting two versus two - the ability to kill the other player first gives you a chance to 2v1 an opposing team. At the very least, it gives you an opportunity for a 1v1 (your teammate vs the remaining enemy) - but gives your team the additional time it takes for the enemy to refocus on you for a quick-kill (those 2-3 seconds are enormous).

[quote]Oh, and I call bullsh*t on "I PvP in my raid gear w/ people in S3." You may defend farm for them or something, but try going with serious PvPers into a serious PvP fight and you'll be paper thin and absolutely worthless. When you can be 3 shot, there is a problem.[/quote]

Actually, I get a lot of this. That's why I accept duels from anyone on-server. My one ****** hang-up is that after they lose (as they have always done so thus far - except one bm hunter from karma with +95 shadow resist on his kitty*), they must link their armory into trade chat, and say (script) "name: Ovelia beat me while I am in (link)(link)(link) and she doesn't have any pvp gear, 3*/3 times". Well, I changed it - in the past, it would be "...I'm in full(etc) gladiator/s1/s2/s3 gear...", but I thought it would be easier just to link it with /2. Yeah, honestly, tks doesn't mean anything - pretty much everyone I've pvp'd has between 8-26k tks (usually on the mid-high end: 18+).

As for being three-shot, yes - that is a problem. The only way to get around it is to keep the enemy constantly off balance, so they don't have the time to three-shot you. A lot of people either *****, qq about OPed locks, or ask me to join their arena team after I beat them, meh. If you pay for my transfer, I'll gladly duel you - if you win, I'll announce to everyone here the outcome, as well as reimburse your costs; if I win, you'll have to do the same. Then again, I doubt you care enough to bother - but I will make the offer.

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That's all, I'm not posting anything here until you people make reasoned arguments, or counters to what I've brought up. I don't especially care if you think I'm bsing you or not - I know it works well for me *shrugs*. And someone ^ is right when they said I'm making inflammatory statements on purpose - it's fun to challenge the "experienced" geezers. To reiterate, I am not saying EA isn't useful, or that perception is better. I'm simply saying that they are equitable depending on play-style.

That and Jenova needs to do some research and take his head out of his ***. Yeah, I said it - I know I'm an immature little ***** :/

you really think that "because A's offence outweighs B's defence" A will win? again. do arena. according to your theory any duel dps groups should be top while in reality it's the defensive class + healer that wins, also explain how i haven't been providing evidence? all i do is provide evidence (unless the Q in hand is so stupid that it doesn't require evidence, just ridicule of the idiot who wrote it)

your original idea what that human locks where amazing for pvp and that "you can adapt your playstyle to make best use of their racials".. well that's not possible. you can ONLY use perception if you know there's a stealthed class near (which 90% of the time you won't) AND you'll only find the stealther if they're retarded. humans are, in the end, the worst race choice for warlocks BUT that doesn't mean you can't still be a good pvper. it's all about personnal ability, just that you're leaving yourself at a loss due to the choice as escape artist is one of the best pvp abilities in the game, regardless of class.

obviously you haven't read many of my posts, yeah i'm cocky but i've good reason to be. i do near enough 'know it all' about warlocks.

also talking about duels? no offence but we're the most OP class in the game when it comes to 1v1. we can beat almost any class with any gear we like as long we we're fairly heavily into afliction, so beating S3 people with raiding gear isn't hard. heck you can arguably beat some S3 geared classes while naked (pallies/priests) hence why most people don't want to duel locks and why we constantly get nerf requests.

now back to arena.
you TRUELY believe you can NOT let someone get out of LoS / out of range? heh you really don't know what real pvp is. the druid you're up against will have a partner, 90% of the time it's a warlock, rogue or warrior. all of which can CC you and/or slow you. the druid healer will rarely ever be in range for you to dot/ drain, also the moment you try to drain their mana they'll switch to bear and feral charge / travel form and run. all while you're being beaten on. 90% of the time that the healer is actually close enough to you, you'll be casting CoT ,fear or drain mana on them.

your ideas all sound good in theory, heck in theory a dest spec would work in arena. but in reality they don't work and no it's not "just 'cos they haven't tried hard enough at those specs", in the end certain specs just don't work properly in team pvp, and arena is THE team based pvp. (even in BGs, most fights end up being at best, 5v5 and the winning side will always be the one with the better healing and CC)

(p.s. these responses are pretty scattered to what you wrote, but i'm slowely covering everything)

next is the "it's down to your playstyle" about that slowing/snare effects make/break pvp. it's nothing to do with play style. if you can't chase after the guy stuck on 10% hp to finish him while he's got you snared/slowed and he's running to his healer / around a pillar to rec/bandage/heal then you may have just lost the battle there and then. also the "you loose half a second or 3-4 yrds by popping the racial". do you click or have it bound? 'cos tbh it should be bound to a quick keybind. the person who said about "pop CoEx+racial" to make a quick getaway is 100% correct. 'wasting' a GCD to keep you out of nuking distance / get out of a frost nova is 99% of the time worth it as that diffence in damage you take can mean the difference between you living long enough for X cooldown / dot to tick OR the difference between a low mana cost heal on you compared to a heavily mana inefficient one, so leading to the length of the long term survivability of your team changing alot.

then there's your comment about only needing to just see/hear the stealther around you and then using iHoT. nice idea but trust me, you'll want to save that fear for the 2nd fear so that the first has the best chance of lasting the full 10seconds /use it to interupt casts/stun locks/ a temporary CC of 2+ targets

perception doesn't always work. most the time you'll end up finding no-one because most people (and this is true the highier you get in pvp) realise to wait for it to wear off. escape arist though is a 100% for certain (until they nerf it to be a chance to fail) to give you a decent chance to get away from a melee target / give you a chance to catch up to someone running from you.

your pvp experience and 'knowledge' currently is completely based around BGs, and yeah, using perception to hopefully allow for extra time for reinforcement is a good idea, but now-a-days arena is THE pvp and THE place to truely measure pvp skill. BGs generally measure peoples ability to zerg / achieve pve goals in a pvp environment. in arena though perception doesn't provide you with anything more than 15 seconds extra before the combat begins

we've all been making more than reasonable counter arguements. just you're not reconnising them because you don't see how they can be true as you've yet to experience PROPER pvp. only BGs and Duels which are FAR from proper skilled pvp

tell that to jenova.

funny thing i got rated down in another thread for stating that if you practice runnign around pillars your arena gameplay will improve...not many people who visit here can rate people down..ah well you guys just continue theroycrafting, play sh*ttiy chars and believe that destro > all and keep on rating me down and i´ll continue to post the good stuff.


oh and wait...i said gnome racial is kick *** for pvp.

Edited, Jan 27th 2008 3:19pm by Oakenwrath

Ovelia, there is a plain, valid argument laid out in front of you, which I am going to reiterate without the aggression and name-calling, because you said you would listen to a civil argument.

All of the info and experience you are giving is related to 1v1 PvP, which is INCREDIBLY unbalanced. In duels, yes Perception is going to help becuase you KNOW that the target is stealth-capable, is there and is within a certain radius from the flag. That gives you an advantage.

The problem comes from needing to KNOW that the Rogue/Druid is there in order to use the ability. If the opponent is allowing you to see them before-hand, they aren't a good player. If they are approaching you even with perception, it is also a clear sign that they don't know what they are doing.

I get what you are saying about delaying an opponent for the most part, but it is confusing me. Why is a the player chasing after your groupmates while stealthed?

Perception isn't necessarily a "Bad" ability.

We are just saying that EA provides more utility against a wider variety of targets, which it does.

You can never accurately look at a class's capabilities in any situation other than 3v3 content, though it is most effective at higher numbers like 5 or 10.

Warlocks are possibly the most OP class in the game for 1v1 content. If you are going to use duels as the standard for the ability, then Perception can be highly useful due to the confining nature of duels.

If Perception provided a passive bonus it would be much more useful. That DOESN'T mean you CANNOT gain mileage out of it. We are only saying that Escape Artist will give way more utility against more classes. Even if they can just re-snare you a second later, you still forced them to waste some rage/mana/cooldowns using it.

Plus, the logic you are using in that they can just hit you again would make the trinket useless. You are saying that EA is just a second trinket, so that would make them both useless.

You said that Perception requires a Warlock to adapt to their situation. Well, so does EA. Both have uses in different situations. We are just saying that the quantity of times you will use one over the other is a pretty large difference.

as i think everyone will say (or at least agree on) "in the it's your money, play how you want". nobody can complain if you say you rolled a human lock just for the looks. but if you say it's 'cos you think they're superior you will get crushed

To be fair, Humans may be considered better in many ways for solo and PvE content. That rep gain is pretty nice in the long run if you like gaining rep for multiple different factions. Plus, it does technically save you money in the end as well, due to the vendor bonus.

But, in the end, you just have to choose what will make you happy.

as i said earlier, the rep increase is equivilant to roughly 1 extra instance run or 2-3 hours (max) extra time grinding, ya it builds up in the long run but as oaken said, once you're exalted it becomes a dead racial. also what's the use of sword etc.. 'expertise' for us?

i think wow is getting to you :P

My Alliance lock is human because I hate gnomes. I hate how they look, I hate how small they are, and I hate how annoying they sound. I don't play gnomes. Not greatly fond of hmans either, but it was my only other choice. Personally, I don't base anything off of racials because personally I feel that if I can't master a class without the use of racials then I suck at that class anyway and no racial is going to save me. (Although the passive bonus from Shadowmeld is quite helpful to my rogue).. Anyway, if I really gave a sh*t about alliance racials, I would not choose human for perception. Perception simply sucks and let me tell you why.

My main is a rogue and I have a cast bar addon. I can see when you cast perception, how long you have it on for, and how much longer untl your CD is up. If there are two clothies, and you have perception up, guess who's getting focus fired? If you're a lock with perception and/or puppy out, I'm going to shadowstep > cheapshot you. If you're a mage with perc up, I'm going to distract and rush in so I can save shadowstep for your blink and sprint for your frost nova. If you're a warrior with perc up then I'll throw a distract then go after your healer or clothy.. There are a million ways to get around perception without waiting for it to wear off. (besides, as a night elf sub rogue, I have the stealth bonus from MoD, shadowmeld, and my boots, so I'd have to get pretty close for you to pick me up anyway.) So I would agree that if you are basing your race choice on raicials rather than aesthetics, then you shouldn't choose humans for perception in pvp.


Personally... I chose my human lock for his long black hair :P