just curious as to which would be better for me. the jade skull breastplate http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28262 or the vindicators haurbek from aldor rep http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29127.
Right now I'm more worried about getting my defense to 490 and avoidance to 102.9%? can't remember if that is the right stat for avoidance but i'm sure I'm close.
I know that going with the hauberk I'd lose some stamina and the shield block, but gain more in defense. Plus I figure that I can regain that stamina through enchants as well as the shield block.
One other question, what is the point of shield block? Does it help me in my seemingly never ending quest to be kara ready? or does it just apply to armor, which in itself does help, but as I said, I'm more focused on getting my defense up.
Thx
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If you are into heroics and kara at all, you should save up 75 badges and get the Chestguard of the Stoic Guardian. It will last you ages (its even better than the t4 chest). It's quite an investment in badges but your chestpiece is a key piece of armour imo, and my CotSG is the jewel in my gear at the moment.
But to actually answer the opening post..... :)
I would definatly go for Vindicator's Hauberk. It has much more defense and dodge instead of sheild block rating. Dodge adds to your chance to dodge an attack (suprisingly), meaning you take no damage at all. Shield block rating adds to your chance to block, which blocks a small amount of the damage from an incoming hit but doesn't avoid it completly, so-
dodge > block rating
You need to get your defence to 490 to become uncritable, and your total avoidance (dodge+parry+block with holy shield) to 102.4%. It doesn't matter which numbers you use to get to 102.4, but as dodge completely avoids damage, it is better to use that then block (and it is also harder to find items with dodge as it is a more desirable stat). Parry is similar to dodge but leaves you open to a quick counter attack from the mob so it isn't quite as good as dodge but better than block.
Don't worry about the 11 extra stam on the Jade-Skull Breastplate, its only 110 extra HP and the stats on the Vindicator's Hauberk are more useful overal.
I would definatly go for Vindicator's Hauberk. It has much more defense and dodge instead of sheild block rating. Dodge adds to your chance to dodge an attack (suprisingly), meaning you take no damage at all. Shield block rating adds to your chance to block, which blocks a small amount of the damage from an incoming hit but doesn't avoid it completly, so-
dodge > block rating
You need to get your defence to 490 to become uncritable, and your total avoidance (dodge+parry+block with holy shield) to 102.4%. It doesn't matter which numbers you use to get to 102.4, but as dodge completely avoids damage, it is better to use that then block (and it is also harder to find items with dodge as it is a more desirable stat). Parry is similar to dodge but leaves you open to a quick counter attack from the mob so it isn't quite as good as dodge but better than block.
Don't worry about the 11 extra stam on the Jade-Skull Breastplate, its only 110 extra HP and the stats on the Vindicator's Hauberk are more useful overal.
I'm actually going to have to disagree. Blocking is where the single largest amount of our threat comes from, so you want to have a high amount of Block Rating. The thing the Hauberk has on Jade-Skull is the massive amount of Defense, but overall I would say Jade-Skull is better.
Also as for the Stamina, you have to factor in talents. Hauberk would give 390 health, while Jade-Skull gives 500, for a difference as you said of 110. With both Stamina increasing talents however that's 450 health from Hauberk and 580 health from Jade-Skull, for a difference of 130. I know it's not huge, but especially with a Paladin tank you can never have too much Stmaina. And anyone who has finished a fight with 1 health knows the value in getting every little bit you can.
EDIT: spot on with the Heroic Badge reward chest though. I would save up for that first with any Badges you get unless you are in more dire need for a different piece to upgrade (there's a great belt available too and boots if you're not a Blacksmith).
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 4:41am by Maulgak
Also as for the Stamina, you have to factor in talents. Hauberk would give 390 health, while Jade-Skull gives 500, for a difference as you said of 110. With both Stamina increasing talents however that's 450 health from Hauberk and 580 health from Jade-Skull, for a difference of 130. I know it's not huge, but especially with a Paladin tank you can never have too much Stmaina. And anyone who has finished a fight with 1 health knows the value in getting every little bit you can.
EDIT: spot on with the Heroic Badge reward chest though. I would save up for that first with any Badges you get unless you are in more dire need for a different piece to upgrade (there's a great belt available too and boots if you're not a Blacksmith).
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 4:41am by Maulgak
Thing is, your block rating is going to be higher than parry and dodge by a large amount anyway, because it's more common on items and Holy shield gives you 30% off the bat. So you are going to be blocking enough regardless and you should be trying to get some more complete avoidance like dodge when you can, to give you healers an easier time on it.
Alot of threat does come from blocking, but you also have seals\judgements, retribution aura, consecration, wings and hold shield to help you with aggro, which should be more than enough provided you have a decent spell sword.
The extra defence on the Vindicator's Hauberk also increases all of dodge\parry\block so helps up your avoidance.
Alot of threat does come from blocking, but you also have seals\judgements, retribution aura, consecration, wings and hold shield to help you with aggro, which should be more than enough provided you have a decent spell sword.
The extra defence on the Vindicator's Hauberk also increases all of dodge\parry\block so helps up your avoidance.
Chamual wrote:
Alot of threat does come from blocking, but you also have seals\judgements, retribution aura, consecration, wings and hold shield to help you with aggro, which should be more than enough provided you have a decent spell sword.
Think you meant Holy* Shield which falls under "Blocking", and Ret Aura won't do damage if you Dodge/Parry so I generally file that under "Blocking" as well. The wings, well, can't have that up all the time so it's best not to rely on it as a main means of threat or you'll be sitting a lot waiting for its CD to be up. And Consecration is just a waste of mana when you have 1-2 mobs on you.
I've seen Jack mention before Jade-Skull over Hauberk, and considering I feel he's more of an authority than I am on the matter and my opinion agrees with his, I am sticking to it :) If you're gearing up for Heroics/Kara, Jade-Skull is the better choice. If not, then why would it really matter?
Though, if one already has the rep, and some cash to throw around, get the Hauberk for the time being. It's perfectly acceptable to tide one over until Jade drops.
What I mean with wings is that if you throw them up at the beginning of a fight you can get a massive aggro boost. You should be pulling with avengers shield anyway which gives you a great head start in aggro, and if you are tanking 2 or more mobs you should definatly throw a consecration down to grab them all. If you are tanking a boss, you should be getting enough mana back from spiritual attunment with the constant heals you are getting that mana shouldn't be an issue.
Dodge is the hardest avoidance stat to pickup (quite rightly, because it gives complete avoidance and hence you take zero damage) so you should take it when you can get it. You should have block rating coming out of your ears to be honest, so I wouldn't worry about losing a little bit anyway.
The Vindicator's Hauberk will keep you alive longer than the Jade-Skull Breastplate (1 dodged attack will easily cover the extra 110-130 health the Jade gives you, 2 dodged attacks and you are winning by miles....), get you closer to uncritable and you really shouldn't have problems holding aggro anyway unless you have a crazy over nuking mage determined to pull a mob off you.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 8:36am by Chamual
Dodge is the hardest avoidance stat to pickup (quite rightly, because it gives complete avoidance and hence you take zero damage) so you should take it when you can get it. You should have block rating coming out of your ears to be honest, so I wouldn't worry about losing a little bit anyway.
The Vindicator's Hauberk will keep you alive longer than the Jade-Skull Breastplate (1 dodged attack will easily cover the extra 110-130 health the Jade gives you, 2 dodged attacks and you are winning by miles....), get you closer to uncritable and you really shouldn't have problems holding aggro anyway unless you have a crazy over nuking mage determined to pull a mob off you.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 8:36am by Chamual
Quote:
Alot of threat does come from blocking, but you also have seals\judgements, retribution aura, consecration, wings and hold shield to help you with aggro, which should be more than enough provided you have a decent spell sword.
very rare to have 'more than enough' threat. i spec'd Prot because most tanks i ever ran with didn't have 'enough' threat generation. i keep my Kara tank set with +300 spell, ~98% avoidance(depending on fight), +13k hp.
very few things in Kara will hit hard enough to require full uncrush, maybe Prince phase2. if the healers are easily keeping up then i would want the tank to have more aggro generation so the run can go faster and smoother.
moving forward to 25 mans, +dodge will be a necessity.
I know you need to block to increase threat, what I'm saying is that you should have plenty enough block already and you don't need to pile into it when you can pickup skills like dodge. Losing 23 block from a chestpiece isn't going to gimp your threat one iota.
The Sta was the real kicker there. That hp is going to save your life.
The main reason I chose that chest is that it brings you closer to uncrushable than the other one. When you are first trying to gear up for Kara, you need all the avoidance you can get. This offers a lot of avoidance and a lot of sta.
So here's my take on it:
If you can reach uncrushable with out it, go for the Hauberk.
If you can't then go for the Jade Skull.
Nine times out of 10, people who haven't started raiding yet are still trying desperately to hit that 102.4 which is why I generally recommend the Jade Skull.
And Tommy, not everyone has the luxury of partying with epicced out healers. If you are in a newer guild with everyone just hitting kara the first time, you need to be uncrushable and your dps aren't going to outshine your threat just yet.
The main reason I chose that chest is that it brings you closer to uncrushable than the other one. When you are first trying to gear up for Kara, you need all the avoidance you can get. This offers a lot of avoidance and a lot of sta.
So here's my take on it:
If you can reach uncrushable with out it, go for the Hauberk.
If you can't then go for the Jade Skull.
Nine times out of 10, people who haven't started raiding yet are still trying desperately to hit that 102.4 which is why I generally recommend the Jade Skull.
And Tommy, not everyone has the luxury of partying with epicced out healers. If you are in a newer guild with everyone just hitting kara the first time, you need to be uncrushable and your dps aren't going to outshine your threat just yet.
Have to disagree with with you Jack, I don't think the 110hp will make that much difference, the extra dodge should more than cover it even if you just dodge 1 hit a fight.
Quote:
Have to disagree with with you Jack, I don't think the 110hp will make that much difference, the extra dodge should more than cover it even if you just dodge 1 hit a fight.
i dont want to sound rude, but please read his last post a little closer. he already said that he agrees with you but only AFTER 102.4 has been reached, before that, it doesnt matter if its dodge, parry, or block, you just need the most.
Vindicator has 4.04% total avoidence
Jade Skull has 4.57% total avoidence and more stam.
in the early stages of pally tank, Jade Skull is better.
it doesnt matter if you dodge that extra one attack if the next one crushes you.
I did read his post, and I'm saying that BEFORE 102.4% I think the Vindicator's Hauberk is the better chest piece. It has 4 more avoidance (23 block vs 19 dodge) which is tiny and can be made up elsewhere, infact the 21 extra defense go some way to making it up anyway.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 11:31am by Chamual
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 11:31am by Chamual
Chamual wrote:
I did read his post, and I'm saying that BEFORE 102.4% I think the Vindicator's Hauberk is the better chest piece. It has 4 more avoidance (23 block vs 19 dodge) which is tiny and can be made up elsewhere, infact the 21 extra defense go some way to making it up anyway.
19 dodge = 1% dodge
23 block rating = 2.9% block
So with the block rating you get 1.9% closer to the magic 102.4% than you would otherwise. And, frankly, that's not tiny. That's huge. Yes the def rating helps make up some of that but it's still, as mentioned above, somethling like .5% closer.
And believe me, when you start getting close you realize how big the gap can seem I think people tend to forget that as they've passed the mark.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 11:42am by Celcio
If you really need to reach 490 defence I would personally go with Vindicators Haurbek, BUT when you can pick up the defence rating somewhere else Jade Skull blows Vindicators out of the water.
Quote:
And believe me, when you start getting close you realize how big the gap can seem I think people tend to forget that as they've passed the mark.
Ugh, tell me about it. I'm afraid to get any new gear, cause I'm sitting right at 490 def and 102.4% avoidance (almost perfectly... and that's with Kings, without it I'm at like 102.35). So any new gear has to have the exact same defense and increase my avoidance, or have the exact same avoidance and increase my defense.
What is the "wings" you are referring to? Seal of Righteousness?
There's not a whole TON of cases where I'd saying looking for dodge (or parry for that matter) is a better way to spend your time than looking for Block until you reach uncrushable. THEN I can see the value in swapping out block gear for dodge gear after you hit the mark. If you aren't uncrushable.. you should be trying to be. And block makes the biggest difference in getting there.
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
Quote:
Have to disagree with with you Jack, I don't think the 110hp will make that much difference, the extra dodge should more than cover it even if you just dodge 1 hit a fight.
i dont want to sound rude, but please read his last post a little closer. he already said that he agrees with you but only AFTER 102.4 has been reached, before that, it doesnt matter if its dodge, parry, or block, you just need the most.
Vindicator has 4.04% total avoidence
Jade Skull has 4.57% total avoidence and more stam.
in the early stages of pally tank, Jade Skull is better.
it doesnt matter if you dodge that extra one attack if the next one crushes you.
ahaha I agree. "Maiden hits you with crushing blow" .. Love it! The pure avoidance to me is pwnage. The extra stam is great too. Once you get 102.4 and above, then youll be twinking your stats for more stamina.. Then hitting prince with like 17k raid buffed hps is fun stuff. Versus 11 buffed or whatever. Jade-Skull is a good asset till you get those heroic badges.
why would you bother farming rep for the hauberk, when you can get a better chest piece in the Jade as a drop? at the end of the day it doesnt really matter unless your planning on just going for badges directly from Kara. Run heroics (and heroic dailies) for easy badge farming until you are uncrushable or have saved up enough for the badge chest piece. Meh to raiding but thats just me lol!
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 1:13am by arthoriuss
arthoriuss wrote:
why would you bother farming rep for the hauberk, when you can get a better chest piece in the Jade as a drop? at the end of the day it doesnt really matter unless your planning on just going for badges directly from Kara. Run heroics (and heroic dailies) for easy badge farming until you are uncrushable or have saved up enough for the badge chest piece. Meh to raiding but thats just me lol!
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 1:13am by arthoriuss
I’m in the same boat at the moment and the answer is simple. You need to get the rep gain regardless for aldor as you need inscriptions which are required for a tank. A drop is exactly that a drop. If you’re lucky enough to have the time/friends or guild mates to help you get there then yeah go for the drop.
People need the gear to be able to tank well at the 70 mark. A 100% guaranteed way of getting a decent chest is via rep which you HAVE to get anyway for the inscriptions.
As opposed to running an instance over and over and being left frustrated by crappy drops or bad luck.
I know that you also need to farm instances to get rep but at the same time if you need a chest piece now, just as I did getting that rep is the way to do it.
I didn’t bother farming for marks I just spend a couple of hundred gold buying them. I can make that up quicker farming nodes than farming marks and that’s the trick to it IMO.
Im still going to try for the mech drop however at the same time Ive got a decent chest piece to get me there :)
Quote:
What is the "wings" you are referring to? Seal of Righteousness?
Paladin Wings: Avenging Wrath
I didn't read every word in the post, but I'm not sure what the "wings" have to do with this topic. Anyhow... there are your "wings" from what I understand.
Kz
Saaru wrote:
What is the "wings" you are referring to? Seal of Righteousness?
Avenging Wrath.
And yea, like Jack I too am a little paranoid about new gear. I've still got a blue trinket cause if I replace it with my nifty new Spyglass from SSC trash, I become crushable :S But it's 40 more Stamina! Ugh.
Just wanted to also say, "See? I knows what I is talkin' abouts :)"
Guston wrote:
I didn’t bother farming for marks I just spend a couple of hundred gold buying them. I can make that up quicker farming nodes than farming marks and that’s the trick to it IMO.
Nothing wrong with the way you did it, just worth noting you can farm Mech for the chest piece AND marks/signets to trade for marks. Efficiency :)
Maulgak wrote:
Guston wrote:
I didn’t bother farming for marks I just spend a couple of hundred gold buying them. I can make that up quicker farming nodes than farming marks and that’s the trick to it IMO.
Nothing wrong with the way you did it, just worth noting you can farm Mech for the chest piece AND marks/signets to trade for marks. Efficiency :)
Ah yes but that brings me back to the whole being able to find a group/friends/guild thing.
My guild is ok however they are more geared than me so I cant expect them to drop everything to help me (at this stage anyway).
So to make sure when I get my chance to tank an instance I dont want to be gimped in anyway. I take pride in my gear and being up to the task and I needed the aldor chest to get to 490 defense....which is exactly the number Im at until I gear up a bit more :)
I now need a trinket and a ring or two to push my defense over the line so I can then toggle with my other gear/stats......Im enjoying the challenge which is good as its keeping me playing the game :)
As a general rule, you gear for avoidance, you socket for Stam, you trinket for emergencies. At the moment I'm using green gems and I've got well over uncrushable (106.x% avoidance w/ Holy Shield) with around 13k hp.
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