Skill > GearFollow

Can I has popcorn?

If it takes you 10 seconds to run 5 feet and grab a spine, you'd be right, but it doesn't. Losing a couple seconds every minute or so will have an almost negligible effect on DPS when calculated as WWS does, while you do lose a substantial amount of damage each time. 3 seconds off would decrease damage done by about 2,000-3,000. Done several times in a fight, and you lose a substantial chunk of damage.



Ever played a Rogue on Kael'thas? You get two minutes to beat the **** out of the advisors with no concerns at all but doing damage. Once Phase 4 starts, your DPS goes down because you lose about 25% of your natural energy regen to kick, you get mind controlled and sit around sheeped, have to run off the target for phoenixes and flamestrikes, etc. Your DPS is the highest it will ever get immediately after the weapons die (since you get double DPS from Blade Flurry), and it gradually goes down from there.


You're missing the point. We were at the same disadvantage, a comparison is perfectly logical. If I were comparing a ranged class to a melee on those fights, then yeah, it would be pretty stupid. Since we both wore the same amount of FR, and did the exact same thing on Supremus, I don't see why there's a problem.


It's hardly like that. Apparently, though, the only fights where DPS comparisons are valid to you are those that are perfect for melee.

And?

It shows you has having 85% Presence. If that's entirely due to Spine grabbing, that means that you spent 9 seconds out of every minute away from the boss. That's pretty significant; more likely, you either turned autoattack off or WWS flat-out didn't calculated DPS correctly.

Which is why the WWS DPS number is 100% worthless if it shows you as having a low presence.

Do spines make it not a great parse fight? Sure. But he beat you. Including it as proof of your superiority was rather dumb.




Strictly speaking, when you're Mind Controlled your DPS usually goes up until you're Sheeped, at which point the ever-stupid WWS will stop recording your presence.

Your DPS is also the lowest in P1 and only marginal in P2, depending upon weapon kill order. 122 DPS weapons plus 25% more damage plus 30% haste gives you a hell of a boost even over Blade Flurry on two targets. Quite simply, it should easily be higher in P4 in 90% of the cases since you get all those nifty benefits! At least, higher enough to compensate for the incredible awfulness of the P1 and early P2.



Since someone else got here first;



I don't know how much old-world raiding you did, but Huhuran was not the end-all melee DPS parsing fight. Neither was Sartura, Chromaggus, Firemaw or Shazzrah.

Edited, Jan 25th 2008 4:34pm by RPZip

MyTeddy > Theo = Demea > Tyr

WTF are you?

P.S. Lol nelf

Edited, Jan 25th 2008 3:35pm by EonSprinter

/nod

I think you don't quite understand what Presence means. Presence is how long you were alive in the fight. DPS time is how much of that time you were doing your job. I had a 94% DPS time, so out of every minute I was DPSing, I spent 3.6 seconds out of combat (grabbing a spine, bandaging, etc). It seems as though you were calculating my DPS including the time I was dead. Elaii had only 1% higher DPS time than me, but was 139 DPS less than I did. The only reason he outdamaged me is because I died 69 seconds before the boss did. If you multiply that time by Elaii's average DPS, you get that he was about 53,000 damage behind me when I died. He was only able to beat me by 13,000 damage with 69 seconds extra DPS time.


So, I'll take it that you have never played a Rogue on Kael'thas. You get mind controlled, hit one person a couple times, then run off like a ****** and try to hit somebody else. Yes, your DPS goes down in Phase 4/5. Every minute, Kael puts up his wonderful Shock barrier, and you get 10-12 seconds of DPS time where you do 0 damage, but WWS keeps logging you as in combat. There goes 1/6 of your DPS right there.


Your DPS in Phase 1 is actually pretty good. You'll be out of combat for two of the bosses, you get to blow your 2 minute cooldowns on the second one, and both die so fast that you don't have time for your DPS to level out after the initial energy dump. I also have no idea why you think DPS in phase 2 is marginal. You kill the mace, then move onto the other weapons which you get to double your DPS on with Blade Flurry. In Phase 3, you get Bloodlust from your Shaman + Legendary Weapons + 25% Physical Damage + Adrenaline Rush + Haste Potion (if you feel frisky) + 20% Haste from sword. Phase 3 DPS is enormous for a Rogue, and coming immediately out of Phase 2 where you got doubled DPS, the end of P2/Beginning of P3 is the highest your DPS will ever be in that fight. It's the same perks as Kael, but none of the baggage of MC, Flamestrikes, Phoenixes, spamming kick to stop fireballs (-600-1000 damage each time) and losing a sixth of your DPS time to shock barrier. Next time you do Kael (if your guild still does Kael, maybe keying the odd recruit/alt/whatever), pull out SWS and watch Rogue DPS.


A nice analogy, but not an entirely fair one. We're not doing something so complicated as running across a wet field trying to avoid puddles and not slip. All we have to do is walk back in range on a predictable timer. This is not anything complicated. If it was a small margin, then yeah, this point would be valid. There are any number of factors that could have caused a slight shift. But my DPS was 30% higher than his. The bottom line is you have to do your job on every boss. You can't just say "Oh, that wasn't a great boss for me, so it doesn't mean anything that I got trounced in DPS by others of the same class."

Edited, Jan 27th 2008 12:42pm by Nooblestick

Edited, Jan 27th 2008 12:42pm by Nooblestick

You just can't admit when you're wrong, can you? Naj'entus is a fine fight for melee DPS. It's exactly the same from start to finish, with minimal breaks on damage. He barely outdamaged me with over a minute of extra DPS time. How can you possibly decide that is inconclusive? Yes, I died, but why do you have to survive the whole fight for how you performed to be an accurate representation? If I'd died 2 minutes in, then yeah, I'd agree. But after 8 minutes, that's plenty of time for DPS to normalize, and it can't possibly be an issue of lucky crits.


That's an oversimplification. It takes a certain amount of time without you showing up in the combat log before it determines you are not in combat any more. Hitting a person, having your deadly poison tick while you run to the next one, and repeat until sheep keeps you in combat for the full duration as far as WWS is concerned.


We run Kael with 5-8 apps usually, most often in kara gear. So yeah, the DPS is pretty bad. People who are too dense to stop what they're doing and DPS the shield down, or people dying to Thaladrad in P3, and in some cases even Capernian in P1 on rare occasions. Kael isn't done with the A team, so to speak.


You're just dismissing my point entirely. SWS isn't the issue here. We're looking at the DPS from WWS, and your DPS in WWS is going to be highest right around the time Elaii died. Your logic for the DPS not being valid is because I supposedly had some uber advantage in P4/5, which is simply not the case, and is what I'm debating.


And what other guilds do are very important when I'm talking about a specific fight with my guild. Right.


Exactly. In this case, the baggage is greatly increased DPS from Blade Flurry, which gradually decreases over the course of the fight. You seem to be arguing with SWS logic against WWS data. Well yeah, if you only factor DPS as how long the fight lasted, then yes, you'd be right and DPS will increase over the fight. The problem is we aren't talking about results from SWS. We're talking about WWS. In this WWS log, Elaii died just as his DPS peaked. My DPS as represented in this log decreased from the time he died because of the nature of the fight.


And yet another example of glossing over a point. Yes, I heard you the first time when you said this was not a valid comparison, but I've yet to see a valid argument as to why. You can say it over and over again, but until you actually give a legitimate reason why, it means nothing. To restate my point so you don't have to go digging through the past posts:

If we are both working at the same disadvantage, a comparison is valid. Fights don't have to be perfect in order to draw a conclusion. I'm not trying to say this is a representation of his DPS on every fight, as he certainly does much more damage on other fights. The point is that working under the same conditions, when both of us survived the whole fight, he was completely and utterly destroyed in DPS output. To go back to the runner analogy, would you draw a conclusion if one runner finished in two hours, and the other took four? Of course you would, it's such a huge difference that there is no choice to accept anything but one runner was bested by the other.


How about "neither person died within the first couple minutes"? A person dying doesn't invalidate the data if there has been plenty of time for random quirks like lucky crits to be worked out. It's the law of averages, you just have to determine when it becomes valid. I think 8 minutes into the fight is perfectly reasonable (the Naj'entus log). My death didn't magically increase my DPS, nor did it decrease Elaii's. If you still feel that this log is invalid, please explain how my death invalidates the log, why only beating me by 13k damage with 69 seconds of extra DPS time doesn't matter, and why being over 50k damage ahead of Elaii at the time of my death doesn't matter.


If I were looking for a log to say that X Rogue doesn't do much damage, then yes, you would be 100% correct. But comparing one rogue to another doesn't require perfect conditions. Like I said, we have to do our job no matter what fight it is. Adverse conditions don't erase the fact that another rogue under identical conditions outperformed by some huge margin. I'm not nitpicking over 10 DPS here, but 100-250. It's not a huge stretch to draw a conclusion from the data I've presented. You just continually dismiss my arguments and restate your own, as if I've said nothing.



Dying right after you blow cooldowns, get bloodlust, etc has been known to give you much higher than normal DPS...


just as both people in question dying before even the halfway point of an attempt that might have gotten the boss to 30% gives extremely skewed numbers. When one of the people in question has an abysmal 77% DPS time, it's even less valid.


That's what happens on a fight that ends at 65% when one Rogue blows his cooldowns and the other doesn't.


Do you really want me to address this? I mean, my death 60 seconds into the fight couldn't have possibly skewed the data by a huge amount.

This is getting pitiful. You're grasping at straws. How about actually addressing my points instead of restating yours and linking horribly unrepresentative logs.

[quote]Man, I guess he's just so much better than you. Clearly all of those WWS's are valid on my say-so, even though they're awful fights.[/quote]
Yeah, you're right. I mean, a fight where I died 60 seconds in, or when I didn't use cooldowns is exactly the same as a full kill where both of us were alive either the whole time or long enough to get a representative DPS. You've yet to explain properly why mine were awful fights. You argue unrelated points (like how SWS would say DPS is lower on Kael, when we're talking about WWS data) and constantly ignore my points while restating your own.

Edited to fix tags

Edited, Jan 27th 2008 3:54pm by Nooblestick

I played that game too. I am so old that when I did it, it was 1200 bps modems, and scripts in Basic were viable. I am petty sure the term "leet" didn't exist back then.

Yes I am THAT old.

Regardless of whether you have the "same" disadvantages doesn't mean that you guys are going to have them at the same time, for the same amount of time, because you can never get a disadvantage twice in a row or more times than another person of the same class...hence u fail.

Regardless of whether who died first, you really don't know what COULD have been done..sure you can go by what happened where you left off, but the rest is inconclusive...u fail again.

I like the running analogy but to make it better its like having 2 runners on 2 completely different surfaces, but in the same gear...one on ice, one on a track for instance..results should vary. wow, you fail some more.

You can flame me all you want...whatever makes you feel like a man...Say what you want but this isn't about me...remember that when ur flaming me ;-)

OOhhh this is where a target dummy, in both faction's major cities, that records this DPS, DMG done and blah blah blah (like an ingame WWS or SWS) would be nice to have. "Hey bro, I'm better than you, lets see who does more dmg and dps, meet me at the dummies" type thing...ya know?

But it is funny...