Hi, this is my first post. I always read this forum and I greatly improved my gameplay using the suggestion I find here. I'm a 70 level combat daggers pure pve rougue, and I'm in a (not hardcore) raiding guild. We are farming Kara and Grull and started approaching TK and SSC killing the looter below and the void looter, some of us are on Zul Aman but I havn't yet started. I'm writing here cos since we started Kara my dps is goin horribly down if you compare it to locks and hunters with same level of equip as mine. in all the instance from 65-70 and in the first Kara runs I was always on top of SWStats, but now I'm 4th or even 5th (!!!) in 10 men and 10 or even worse in 25 men. My usual combat cycle is:
Bosses:
if it bleeds: Garrote/BSx5/SnD/BS/Rupture/BSx5/SnD repeat inserting trinkets, AR, BF ecc...
if it dosn't bleeds: Ambush/BSx5/SnD/BS/Eviscerate/BSx5/SnD repeat inserting trinkets, AR, BF ecc...
Trash:
Ambush/Trinket/BSx3/SnD/BF/AR/BS/Eviscerate mob dead :-)
The number of BS are not accurate, I try to keep always SnD up. I usually have MH Instant OH Deadly. I sure use kick, kidney shot ecc... when needed.
I always read here that rogue in raids have the better dps of em all, but my dps is stuck in something between 400-500 (depending on buffs). Every hunter, lock, shaman and some mage I know with an equip similar to mine can do 600-700 dps with no problem. All the hunters in my guild respecced so I cannot have no more Trueshot Aura, in guild raids there is a cap on the number of melee dps (one for 10 men, 2 for 25 men) so I cannot have in party a warrior, a feral druid and a melee shaman. Mostly I'm in party with another rogue, which is much better equipped than me but still is far from the dps of our top hunters and locks (he is around 600-700 or less and our best dpser are 850+)
What I am missing ? Should I go combat sword ? And if yes, why ?? the swords I can have doin only PVE are worst or similar than the daggers I have at my level (referring to www.shadowpanther.net). Can someone help or post armory profile and combat cycles of rogue at my level of play (half purple/half blue and pure pve) doing always 700 dps ?
Thanks alot.
Armory profile: Derozer Armory
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Here's a few suggestions:
1. If you want to stick with Combat Daggers, use 3/5/5 cycles. That means 3pt SnD, 5pt SnD, 5pt Rupture, repeat. That's your optimal cycle to maximize damage. It's especially hard since your main CP generator with Combat Daggers costs 60 energy, and you have to be behind your target (which can be problematic on certain boss fights).
2. Switch your poisons. Your OH is faster than your MH, so it'll get more poison procs. Once you get a full stack of Deadly poisons, you only need to refresh it once before it runs out, so save the faster procs for Instant Poison.
3. You could use several gear upgrades (which I'm sure you're fully aware of). The obvious ones are your belt, ring, necklace and gloves. T4 gloves would go a long way, especially since it'll give you the 2-piece set bonus.
4. Your talent build could use some tweaking to maximize DPS. Here's what I'd use if I were you.
Edit: I'm about the same level of gear progression as you, and I regularly put out 650-800 DPS (depending on the boss). Here's a link to my armory profile (although the US Armory is down at the moment due to server maintainence).
Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 10:45am by Demea
1. If you want to stick with Combat Daggers, use 3/5/5 cycles. That means 3pt SnD, 5pt SnD, 5pt Rupture, repeat. That's your optimal cycle to maximize damage. It's especially hard since your main CP generator with Combat Daggers costs 60 energy, and you have to be behind your target (which can be problematic on certain boss fights).
2. Switch your poisons. Your OH is faster than your MH, so it'll get more poison procs. Once you get a full stack of Deadly poisons, you only need to refresh it once before it runs out, so save the faster procs for Instant Poison.
3. You could use several gear upgrades (which I'm sure you're fully aware of). The obvious ones are your belt, ring, necklace and gloves. T4 gloves would go a long way, especially since it'll give you the 2-piece set bonus.
4. Your talent build could use some tweaking to maximize DPS. Here's what I'd use if I were you.
Edit: I'm about the same level of gear progression as you, and I regularly put out 650-800 DPS (depending on the boss). Here's a link to my armory profile (although the US Armory is down at the moment due to server maintainence).
Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 10:45am by Demea
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Well, here are some thoughts.
1. You cycle is pretty bad. You're taking forever to get SnD up, and a one point rupture is a waste of CPs. Like Demea said, stick to 3S/5S/5R for combat daggers.
2. Combat Swords > All for raiding. If you can get your hands on some good swords, switch.
3. Your raid setup is stupid. 2 melee DPS max is just plain dumb. Your ranged classes are getting much better buffs than you (since all you're getting is BS or LotP). Tell your raid leader to pull his head out of his *** and build a proper melee group. Warrior + Feral Druid + Enh. Shammy + Rogue + Hunter/Rogue == best group composition. There is no reason to limit it to only 2 melees. If he disagrees, tell him to come read this and I'll talk some sense into him.
1. You cycle is pretty bad. You're taking forever to get SnD up, and a one point rupture is a waste of CPs. Like Demea said, stick to 3S/5S/5R for combat daggers.
2. Combat Swords > All for raiding. If you can get your hands on some good swords, switch.
3. Your raid setup is stupid. 2 melee DPS max is just plain dumb. Your ranged classes are getting much better buffs than you (since all you're getting is BS or LotP). Tell your raid leader to pull his head out of his *** and build a proper melee group. Warrior + Feral Druid + Enh. Shammy + Rogue + Hunter/Rogue == best group composition. There is no reason to limit it to only 2 melees. If he disagrees, tell him to come read this and I'll talk some sense into him.
Go PvP for a few days and pick up the Gladiators Swords. Easy to get and just about on par with your daggers.
I would also have to suggest that you try to get a bit more hit rating, your a tad bit low atm. When speced we need 363 hit to top out.
I would also have to suggest that you try to get a bit more hit rating, your a tad bit low atm. When speced we need 363 hit to top out.
Scholar
23 posts
Thanks a lot for all the suggestion. I'll stick to the cycle you suggested till I'll drop some intersting swords (Spiteblade and maybe Akil'zon's Talonblade) and respec to combat sword. I can play only 8-10 hours a week so if I switch to pvp I cannot raid so much, I know that gladiator sword would be the best choiche but atm for me they are very hard to get. I have absolutely 0 experience with pvp (yeah, I'm european, worst, I'm italian :-PP). I can try doing some BG, but how many hours a total inexperienced PVPer need for getting the swords ? (serious question)
For the equip, I just can wait for T4 gloves to drop but I have to wait for the palatank and the shammy healer (tank and healers are the first choiche for drop in our raid rules). I think I'll get the shoulder sooner. I wish I had a Primal Nether (lost two in the last two heroics I did) for the primalstrike belt, but if I can put my hands on the Gronn'Stitched Girdle I would be happy too.
Yeah, I know. But there is atm nothing to do about it :-( After many discussions the guild masters have absolutely decided that two melee is the cap for raiding. The obviuos result is that there are only two active raiding Rogue now, one Fury Warrior and one Enh. Shammy. And they rotate us on the raids. It's not an hardcore raiding guild, and I'm very happy with the attitude of all the people (we often meet in real life, have a great sense of humor and so on). On my server there are only hardcore guilds or dumbass guilds, so I'm very happy to be in this kind of guild. If someone will start to rant at my dps I'll explain again that the best group setup is what you wrote, for now my low dps is only my concern and not theirs.
For the equip, I just can wait for T4 gloves to drop but I have to wait for the palatank and the shammy healer (tank and healers are the first choiche for drop in our raid rules). I think I'll get the shoulder sooner. I wish I had a Primal Nether (lost two in the last two heroics I did) for the primalstrike belt, but if I can put my hands on the Gronn'Stitched Girdle I would be happy too.
Nooblestick wrote:
Your raid setup is stupid. 2 melee DPS max is just plain dumb. Your ranged classes are getting much better buffs than you (since all you're getting is BS or LotP). Tell your raid leader to pull his head out of his *** and build a proper melee group. Warrior + Feral Druid + Enh. Shammy + Rogue + Hunter/Rogue == best group composition. There is no reason to limit it to only 2 melees. If he disagrees, tell him to come read this and I'll talk some sense into him
Yeah, I know. But there is atm nothing to do about it :-( After many discussions the guild masters have absolutely decided that two melee is the cap for raiding. The obviuos result is that there are only two active raiding Rogue now, one Fury Warrior and one Enh. Shammy. And they rotate us on the raids. It's not an hardcore raiding guild, and I'm very happy with the attitude of all the people (we often meet in real life, have a great sense of humor and so on). On my server there are only hardcore guilds or dumbass guilds, so I'm very happy to be in this kind of guild. If someone will start to rant at my dps I'll explain again that the best group setup is what you wrote, for now my low dps is only my concern and not theirs.
Derozer your from Italy? lol im posting from my italian class can you help me please?
Scholar
23 posts
CrallBloodyDagger wrote:
Derozer your from Italy? lol im posting from my italian class can you help me please?
Sure. Feel free to ask :-)
oops....
Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 8:44am by XpReSSdaPiMp
Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 8:44am by XpReSSdaPiMp
Quote:
I can try doing some BG, but how many hours a total inexperienced PVPer need for getting the swords ? (serious question)
If you do av you dont need to be the best at pvp.. its based on pvp/pve rolls. So your pvp ability is not as important as lets say WSG or AB.... I will usually switch btwn my pvp and pve gear when running AV. AV is the best way to get Honor points. But the two swords take EOTS badges so that’s the hard part. In one run thru AV you can get 450-700 points. I would wait till its the AV weekend and run it as much as you can. and then do a couple EOTS during your off time. Hope this helps!
XpReSS
Derozer wrote:
Yeah, I know. But there is atm nothing to do about it :-( After many discussions the guild masters have absolutely decided that two melee is the cap for raiding. The obviuos result is that there are only two active raiding Rogue now, one Fury Warrior and one Enh. Shammy. And they rotate us on the raids. It's not an hardcore raiding guild, and I'm very happy with the attitude of all the people (we often meet in real life, have a great sense of humor and so on). On my server there are only hardcore guilds or dumbass guilds, so I'm very happy to be in this kind of guild. If someone will start to rant at my dps I'll explain again that the best group setup is what you wrote, for now my low dps is only my concern and not theirs.
Yeah, if they won't build a proper melee group, they're severely limiting the raid's overall DPS. If they say something about your damage output, point them to this post. My guild has 3/5 Hyjal on farm (Azgalor to 1% last night, wiped because healers let the tank die, will have him dead tonight), and 3/5 BT on farm (Teron Gorefiend will be dead as soon as we get a chance to attempt him). We raid with a minimum of 5 melee DPS so we can build a proper group. Melee classes scale the best with raid buffs, since we can take advantage of nearly everything. I can put out 2k+ DPS on Shade of Akama, and it's all thanks to group composition.
For reference, I just put out about 765 DPS on Gruul using WF MH, Deadly OH, 1s/5r cycles.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Nooblestick wrote:
Yeah, if they won't build a proper melee group, they're severely limiting the raid's overall DPS. If they say something about your damage output, point them to this post. My guild has 3/5 Hyjal on farm (Azgalor to 1% last night, wiped because healers let the tank die, will have him dead tonight), and 3/5 BT on farm (Teron Gorefiend will be dead as soon as we get a chance to attempt him). We raid with a minimum of 5 melee DPS so we can build a proper group. Melee classes scale the best with raid buffs, since we can take advantage of nearly everything. I can put out 2k+ DPS on Shade of Akama, and it's all thanks to group composition.
I agree with Nooble, before my guild raid SSC/TK, we used to setup something like yours. After sharing and discussing, my raid leader are very surprise how much DPS we can output with a proper group setup.
Imagine with setup like yours, most likely I'm doing 500-750 dps, but with a proper group (especially enhancement shaman WF, fury warr shout), I can break 1000 dps easily. Nowadays I'm doing minimum 10% of whole 25 men raid DPS most of the time.
Quote:
Your raid setup is stupid. 2 melee DPS max is just plain dumb. Your ranged classes are getting much better buffs than you (since all you're getting is BS or LotP). Tell your raid leader to pull his head out of his *** and build a proper melee group. Warrior + Feral Druid + Enh. Shammy + Rogue + Hunter/Rogue == best group composition. There is no reason to limit it to only 2 melees. If he disagrees, tell him to come read this and I'll talk some sense into him.
Agree wholeheartedly. We run mace rogue + mace/sword rogue (both seriously considering swords) + feral druid + fury warrior (very undergeared atm) + enchance shammy. The rogues regularly run 800+dps, one almost broke 1k on our last Gruul's, and generally place top 5 (we have two destro locks, a mage, myself, and the rogues who usually top damage). Melee pulls way ahead on fights like Karathress (on the priest), Void Reaver (no movement), and makes dealing with Al'ar (adds) and Solarian (priests) sooo much easier.
And a comment on swords: going dual-spec can work as well, with a sword offhand and fist/mace mainhand. This is because most swordspec procs come from the offhand, and all swordspec procs are *mainhand* hits. This makes things like the crafted mace or the fist from Al'ar come just shy of full swords (one of our rogues runs Dragonstrike/ZA sword, for example). It requires a more fully raid-only spec, though, whereas full swords has a few "trash" talents on the way to 41-point that can be put in more PvP-oriented stuff.
Hm.. that just made me think.
Combat with sword-spec and fist spec, using the a fist weapon in MH and a fast sword in OH... Would that actually be any good?
I guess the sword doesn't gain the +5% crit, but as the sword procs being MH swings (that I knew, btw :P) a 5% crit boost on those hits might actually do good..
In a pure raiding build, would that outdps / be equal to straight combat swords with Slow MH - Fast OH swords?
Sorry if that's a nooby thought.. My rogue is just 66 atm ;O
Combat with sword-spec and fist spec, using the a fist weapon in MH and a fast sword in OH... Would that actually be any good?
I guess the sword doesn't gain the +5% crit, but as the sword procs being MH swings (that I knew, btw :P) a 5% crit boost on those hits might actually do good..
In a pure raiding build, would that outdps / be equal to straight combat swords with Slow MH - Fast OH swords?
Sorry if that's a nooby thought.. My rogue is just 66 atm ;O
Schweizi wrote:
Hm.. that just made me think.
Combat with sword-spec and fist spec, using the a fist weapon in MH and a fast sword in OH... Would that actually be any good?
I guess the sword doesn't gain the +5% crit, but as the sword procs being MH swings (that I knew, btw :P) a 5% crit boost on those hits might actually do good..
In a pure raiding build, would that outdps / be equal to straight combat swords with Slow MH - Fast OH swords?
Sorry if that's a nooby thought.. My rogue is just 66 atm ;O
Combat with sword-spec and fist spec, using the a fist weapon in MH and a fast sword in OH... Would that actually be any good?
I guess the sword doesn't gain the +5% crit, but as the sword procs being MH swings (that I knew, btw :P) a 5% crit boost on those hits might actually do good..
In a pure raiding build, would that outdps / be equal to straight combat swords with Slow MH - Fast OH swords?
Sorry if that's a nooby thought.. My rogue is just 66 atm ;O
Yes, Schweizi, this would give comparable DPS to a normal combat swords build.
You end up with a variation on a 17/44 combat build.
The only problem with it is that you will have to respec for arenas since you
a)aren't using maces
and
b)can't get any of the pvp goodies from the combat tree.
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