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Retribution GuideFollow
I meant in the same window, yeah those work, it just opens a new window whenever I click them, which is annoying, at least on my browser.
CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
I guess for all intents and purposes of this conversation and which applies nowhere else either explicitly or implicitly.... yes.
lol...nice response
With reference to the preface: I don't think that people really consider retribution a 'bad' talent build (ok many do, but that's because it's the public meme), but because there's so many DPS already, and a lack of tanks, and less so, a lack of healers, that if PLD can do those two things, it's more beneficial than yet another DPS. In my horde guild, warlocks and hunters are quitting right and left because they never get to do anything, there's always an abundance of DPS... hence me leveling PLD right now :P
This is not to say that people should go something else, do whatever you find fun, I'm just reporting on what observed reactions have been
Nice guide by the way, very in depth. It all seems to make sense, not that I know a ton about ret paladins :P
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 12:43pm by digitalcraft
This is not to say that people should go something else, do whatever you find fun, I'm just reporting on what observed reactions have been
Nice guide by the way, very in depth. It all seems to make sense, not that I know a ton about ret paladins :P
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 12:43pm by digitalcraft
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
With reference to the preface: I don't think that people really consider retribution a 'bad' talent build (ok many do, but that's because it's the public meme), but because there's so many DPS already, and a lack of tanks, and less so, a lack of healers, that if PLD can do those two things, it's more beneficial than yet another DPS. In my horde guild, warlocks and hunters are quitting right and left because they never get to do anything, there's always an abundance of DPS... hence me leveling PLD right now :P
This is not to say that people should go something else, do whatever you find fun, I'm just reporting on what observed reactions have been
Nice guide by the way, very in depth. It all seems to make sense, not that I know a ton about ret paladins :P
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 12:43pm by digitalcraft
This is not to say that people should go something else, do whatever you find fun, I'm just reporting on what observed reactions have been
Nice guide by the way, very in depth. It all seems to make sense, not that I know a ton about ret paladins :P
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 12:43pm by digitalcraft
yeah, my point isn't that everyone hates ret, just that at end game, most people still believe that ret can't cut it. this is changing, but slowly.
you are right about the abundance of dps, and for that, i'd recommend a smaller more friendly guild. otherwise, it may take a bit of time to prove yourself.
so how do we sticky this? Gets my vote (if it matters)
I will have to come back with the rote response. Ret fails end game PvE. Even after the changes to threat, even with utility considered, it is no bueno.
Rpzip covered it, and he is a pretty fair guy. Even in BT/Hyjal gear ret is still pulling down ho hum dps, and its utility is not good enough to be missed.
Hell we tried it. We truly tried it. We had a Holy pally who had rolled together a Ret set all t5 or s3 equivalents. We let him roll ret. He was middle of the pack and gettin out damaged by guys in much ******** gear. We allowed him to switch his hunter in as main and he does more dps now and the utility is really not missed.
Rpzip covered it, and he is a pretty fair guy. Even in BT/Hyjal gear ret is still pulling down ho hum dps, and its utility is not good enough to be missed.
Hell we tried it. We truly tried it. We had a Holy pally who had rolled together a Ret set all t5 or s3 equivalents. We let him roll ret. He was middle of the pack and gettin out damaged by guys in much ******** gear. We allowed him to switch his hunter in as main and he does more dps now and the utility is really not missed.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
class effectiveness is situational. for instance, in Kara i will dps Attumen, OT/dps Moroes and co., heal Maiden, depends on opera, OT flares/dps Curator, dps Shade, OT imps/dps Illhoof, dps Netherspite and switch to mage for Prince.
In a 25 man not so much.
In fact, not at all.
In fact, not at all.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Retribution is better than Holy and Protection if you want to kill the bunnies outside Stormwind.
It's a FACT!
It's a FACT!
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
bodhisattva wrote:
In a 25 man not so much.
In fact, not at all.
In fact, not at all.
Good thing this is a pre-kara/heroics guide.
CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
bodhisattva wrote:
In a 25 man not so much.
In fact, not at all.
In fact, not at all.
Good thing this is a pre-kara/heroics guide.
Fine we will ignore the elephant in the room and only focus on the first very basic and uncomplicated steps end game wow.
/blinders on
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Mazra wrote:
Retribution is better than Holy and Protection if you want to kill the bunnies outside Stormwind.
It's a FACT!
It's a FACT!
Prot and Holy can kill said bunny from the safety of range, so I disagree here :P
That aside: nice guide ToJ. With all the "lawl ret" and other ret hate on this forum, it's not surprising to see some of the posts in this thread, but it is sad and shouldn't be in this thread. When someone wants to know if Ret is viable at a certain point in the game or wants to compare Ret DPS to another class, go ahead and "lawl" it all you want. Hell, I've done it too. But if someone chooses to be Ret, regardless of its fallacies, then imo people should leave them be and/or offer real advice (this thread). You don't have to group/raid with said person, so what's it matter how they choose to spend their $15 a month?
/mini-rant off
Quote:
Fine we will ignore the elephant in the room and only focus on the first very basic and uncomplicated steps end game wow.
/blinders on
/blinders on
Didn't see you say that for Dil's guide.
Edited, Jan 27th 2008 7:55pm by CapJack
a) playing ret and prot well takes more skill than holy
b) most players are not in 25mans
c) by 25mans, why would u need a guide?
d) F the bunnies, i want the whole cow: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh141/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_090307_201127.jpg
b) most players are not in 25mans
c) by 25mans, why would u need a guide?
d) F the bunnies, i want the whole cow: http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh141/tommy0guns/WoWScrnShot_090307_201127.jpg
Quote:
Didn't see you say that for Dil's guide.
Dilbrt didn't make any wildly inaccurate statements based on things he had not yet experienced in game.
Also Ret has never been a build that requires skill. In fact it is mindnumbling easy. I almost find it offensive when people with less than 1900 arena ratings, and who have never made it past Lurker talk about 'being skilled ret players'. 5% is smaller than you think, and you are more than not likely a part of it. Those 5% are people who could squeeze dps out of a Resto druid if they tried. The very fact that there are those 5% speaks more loudly for the epic level of fail that Ret is than its potential.
As for 25 mans, there are raiders in full t5 epics in some guilds who still do not have a clear idea of where they are wanting to take their stats, how there stats and objectives will change from t4 to t5 go t5, talent builds and beyond. To say it is as easy as "spec this way and focus on this" shows a huge ignorance of end game. As a Holy Pally alone you find the shift to +heal, then +crit/mp5 and finally looking at spell haste in t6 and beyond. It is not just more of the same. End game is deeper than that.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
to be honest, bodh, i know you don't like my guide, that's fine. I didn't expect everyone to like it. But it's not for you, since you don't need to learn how to play ret if you don't want to.
Dilbrt didn't make any wildly inaccurate statements based on things he had not yet experienced in game.
i realize there are things i haven't experienced yet in game. however, i wrote the guide based on what i've actually done, seen myself, or in some places learned from the more experienced rets like tommyguns. I did not intend to make any "wildly inaccurate statements" and all you've done is a more elaborate lawlret. If I made any claims that are not true, or gave advice in my guide that you think is wrong, please let me know so i can edit the guide to be accurate.
playing ret is easy. playing ret well is not. gearing ret well with the lack of good gear blizzard has given for ret is even less easy. i've seen many a ret with sub-par performance, usually because they try to gear like blizzard would have them gear or they just don't understand the class. I've also seen 2 on my server (besides myself) that have topped dps charts in heroics. haven't seen one in the couple kara runs i've attempted on my holy pally. to get maximum use out of ret you need skill. not just for dps, but to know when to heal, cleanse, bubble, LoH, DI, BoF, which judgement to use when, etc. it's not as easy as holy.
just a note.... i don't really think i've ever claimed to be a skilled player. definitely not in the 5%. i just am a good ovserver and a decent ret. those in combination are what i've written my guide based on. Any time i refer to skilled players i typically refer to tommyguns who is far superior to me in ret skill. so telling me i'm not in the 5% isn't telling me anything i don't know. i'm working on it and still learning how to play my ret better. till then, helpful advice would be nice.
bodhisattva wrote:
Quote:
Didn't see you say that for Dil's guide.
Dilbrt didn't make any wildly inaccurate statements based on things he had not yet experienced in game.
i realize there are things i haven't experienced yet in game. however, i wrote the guide based on what i've actually done, seen myself, or in some places learned from the more experienced rets like tommyguns. I did not intend to make any "wildly inaccurate statements" and all you've done is a more elaborate lawlret. If I made any claims that are not true, or gave advice in my guide that you think is wrong, please let me know so i can edit the guide to be accurate.
bodhisattva wrote:
Also Ret has never been a build that requires skill. In fact it is mindnumbling easy.
playing ret is easy. playing ret well is not. gearing ret well with the lack of good gear blizzard has given for ret is even less easy. i've seen many a ret with sub-par performance, usually because they try to gear like blizzard would have them gear or they just don't understand the class. I've also seen 2 on my server (besides myself) that have topped dps charts in heroics. haven't seen one in the couple kara runs i've attempted on my holy pally. to get maximum use out of ret you need skill. not just for dps, but to know when to heal, cleanse, bubble, LoH, DI, BoF, which judgement to use when, etc. it's not as easy as holy.
bodhisattva wrote:
I almost find it offensive when people with less than 1900 arena ratings, and who have never made it past Lurker talk about 'being skilled ret players'. 5% is smaller than you think, and you are more than not likely a part of it.
just a note.... i don't really think i've ever claimed to be a skilled player. definitely not in the 5%. i just am a good ovserver and a decent ret. those in combination are what i've written my guide based on. Any time i refer to skilled players i typically refer to tommyguns who is far superior to me in ret skill. so telling me i'm not in the 5% isn't telling me anything i don't know. i'm working on it and still learning how to play my ret better. till then, helpful advice would be nice.
Here are some nice resources that you may want to mention.
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
RETLOL - The Guide
I was surprised too
Edited, Jan 28th 2008 10:46am by chood
[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft
RETLOL - The Guide
I was surprised too
Edited, Jan 28th 2008 10:46am by chood
A very well written and in depth guide.
Thank you.
Thank you.
bodhisattva wrote:
Also Ret has never been a build that requires skill. In fact it is mindnumbling easy.
playing ret is easy. playing ret well is not. gearing ret well with the lack of good gear blizzard has given for ret is even less easy. i've seen many a ret with sub-par performance, usually because they try to gear like blizzard would have them gear or they just don't understand the class. I've also seen 2 on my server (besides myself) that have topped dps charts in heroics. haven't seen one in the couple kara runs i've attempted on my holy pally. to get maximum use out of ret you need skill. not just for dps, but to know when to heal, cleanse, bubble, LoH, DI, BoF, which judgement to use when, etc. it's not as easy as holy. [/quote]
Not that any part of this game is incredibly complicated, but playing whack-a-mole with healing is usually harder (or at least different) than a standard DPS class. The difference is that (melee DPS t least) needs to react to a lot more situational stuff than casters of any type typically do, so it balances out.
Except for Warlocks. Stupid Warlocks.
With that said, am I missing anything especially complicated about DPSing as a Retadin? Judge and refresh Seals after a melee swing so you don't lose DPS (as opposed to doing it just before a swing and not having Seal up). Crusader Strike when it's off cooldown. Wash, rinse and repeat?
Playing a Retadin well, beyond some simple fixes (see: swing timer) seems to be mostly about gearing well. If Enhancement Shaman didn't have Totem Twisting they'd be in much the same situation; they're both largely non-interactive DPS classes.
As to your guide in general... it's nice, but you're using too many generalities (which may be all you have, in which case there's not much to do). If you're looking at a piece of gear, how much STR is worth how much Crit? If you can trade 3 Crit for 4 STR, should you? Vice versa? What about 2 STR for 5 +DMG? 3 Hit versus 3 STR? 2 HIT versus 3 STR?
I can rattle off the stats for Fury Warriors off the top of my head. Assuming BoK and after you've hit the special hit cap (142 Hit - 15.75 * Points into Precision), the approximation is;
1 STR ~= 2.2 AP ~= 1.05 Crit ~= 6.5 Armor Penetration ~= 1.25 Haste ~= 1.45 AGI ~= 1.66 Hit
Don't suppose you have anything like that? Or an approximation? I know you're trying to outline the basics but hard formulas like that are incredibly useful guidelines if you can calculate them (accuracy is important, for obvious reasons).
RPZip wrote:
With that said, am I missing anything especially complicated about DPSing as a Retadin? Judge and refresh Seals after a melee swing so you don't lose DPS (as opposed to doing it just before a swing and not having Seal up). Crusader Strike when it's off cooldown. Wash, rinse and repeat?
Playing a Retadin well, beyond some simple fixes (see: swing timer) seems to be mostly about gearing well.
Playing a Retadin well, beyond some simple fixes (see: swing timer) seems to be mostly about gearing well.
gearing well is the first difficulty in outlands especially now during the transition from spell damage to melee stats untill they redesign ret gear (if they ever do).
beyond that, i suppose you're right to a certain degree about dps'ing. if all i care about is my dps and not the groups success then, yes, SoC, CS and JoC timed right is 90% of what you need. if
i care about overall success then i'm going to be watching for when i need to cleanse, heal, BoP, BoF, pull aggro off the healer/clothies, etc. it may not be watching as much as a tank has to, but its not as easy as SoC, CS, JoC rinse and repeat.
RPZip wrote:
As to your guide in general... it's nice, but you're using too many generalities (which may be all you have, in which case there's not much to do). If you're looking at a piece of gear, how much STR is worth how much Crit? If you can trade 3 Crit for 4 STR, should you? Vice versa? What about 2 STR for 5 +DMG? 3 Hit versus 3 STR? 2 HIT versus 3 STR?
I can rattle off the stats for Fury Warriors off the top of my head. Assuming BoK and after you've hit the special hit cap (142 Hit - 15.75 * Points into Precision), the approximation is;
1 STR ~= 2.2 AP ~= 1.05 Crit ~= 6.5 Armor Penetration ~= 1.25 Haste ~= 1.45 AGI ~= 1.66 Hit
Don't suppose you have anything like that? Or an approximation? I know you're trying to outline the basics but hard formulas like that are incredibly useful guidelines if you can calculate them (accuracy is important, for obvious reasons).
I can rattle off the stats for Fury Warriors off the top of my head. Assuming BoK and after you've hit the special hit cap (142 Hit - 15.75 * Points into Precision), the approximation is;
1 STR ~= 2.2 AP ~= 1.05 Crit ~= 6.5 Armor Penetration ~= 1.25 Haste ~= 1.45 AGI ~= 1.66 Hit
Don't suppose you have anything like that? Or an approximation? I know you're trying to outline the basics but hard formulas like that are incredibly useful guidelines if you can calculate them (accuracy is important, for obvious reasons).
this is the kind of constructive criticism i need. i'll work on adding this soon. thankyou.
I made a post once about the difference between Lawl Ret and Good Ret. It is half a second.
Simple as that, as terribly complicated as that. Keyboard turners, that guy spending that half second clicking his hotbar to use BOF instead of having an already assigned mouse click or assigned key. Any idiot can cleanse, a good ret pally can cleanse a teammate while staying on top of a mage doing everything possible to slow him down.
A lot of Ret like to claim they are at that level, but they are really just 0.5 seconds behind.
Simple as that, as terribly complicated as that. Keyboard turners, that guy spending that half second clicking his hotbar to use BOF instead of having an already assigned mouse click or assigned key. Any idiot can cleanse, a good ret pally can cleanse a teammate while staying on top of a mage doing everything possible to slow him down.
A lot of Ret like to claim they are at that level, but they are really just 0.5 seconds behind.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
With that said, am I missing anything especially complicated about DPSing as a Retadin? Judge and refresh Seals after a melee swing so you don't lose DPS (as opposed to doing it just before a swing and not having Seal up). Crusader Strike when it's off cooldown. Wash, rinse and repeat?
in pve its pretty basic stuff, as with every dps spec.
my mage does 700dps with ice flows + frostbolt x 20 + ice flows + frostbolt x 20.
my pally gets the same results with JotC + SoC/auto + CS. depending on where i am i might mix in some JoC, consecrates, exorcisms, AW, holy wrath, HoJ, HoW, repentence, and cleanse for some more punch(all of which can be added to the rotation without hindering normal dps rotation, whereas a mage must break rotation to cast something extra)
but yeah, pally does take more skill than mage. now if the output could match the input we'd be rollin. here's hoping.
Retridins can do DPS, seriously can I? I've been going through some damagemeters reports of a pally guildmate who had done about 620k ( i dont know if this was the exact amount of damage done, but i know he did the most damage) damage at the end of his heroic and thus topping everyone in the party.
here's his armory profile: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Rhythm
So i was wondering how he managed to do that amount of damage, he responded to me with the usual equipment and skill set-up talk. When i still was ret i never did this kind of significant damage, though my gear was similar to the gear discribed in this faq, lots of strength, ap and crit( i had about 900 ap buffed 17% crit).
Any ideas of what i might have been doing wrong?
,Zignaestos
note: i'm holy now but i will respec to Retribution later to do Arena's with my friend.
here's his armory profile: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Rhythm
So i was wondering how he managed to do that amount of damage, he responded to me with the usual equipment and skill set-up talk. When i still was ret i never did this kind of significant damage, though my gear was similar to the gear discribed in this faq, lots of strength, ap and crit( i had about 900 ap buffed 17% crit).
Any ideas of what i might have been doing wrong?
,Zignaestos
note: i'm holy now but i will respec to Retribution later to do Arena's with my friend.
Glad you are working on this guide, looking good so far!
You may want to consider adding the in-game tool tip text to the Talents section. Even as a pally myself, I didn't know what some of those talents did without looking them up. Your summary of whether to get them or not is good, but as a complete reference, it would be nice to know what they do, as opposed to just "Useful in PvP, not in PvE". I dunno, gives a bigger picture as to what is important, and why?
Also, the TOC feels a bit long. Looks like you have some spacing issues separating the groupings.
Maybe I missed it, but it seems like you left out the importance of tossing a cleanse or a heal when needed in the "1.3 What does a Ret Pally bring to a group?: " section (which is not in the TOC at all).
You may want to consider adding the in-game tool tip text to the Talents section. Even as a pally myself, I didn't know what some of those talents did without looking them up. Your summary of whether to get them or not is good, but as a complete reference, it would be nice to know what they do, as opposed to just "Useful in PvP, not in PvE". I dunno, gives a bigger picture as to what is important, and why?
Also, the TOC feels a bit long. Looks like you have some spacing issues separating the groupings.
Maybe I missed it, but it seems like you left out the importance of tossing a cleanse or a heal when needed in the "1.3 What does a Ret Pally bring to a group?: " section (which is not in the TOC at all).
sorry about leaving this incomplete so long. woke up tue moning and was told we had 30 mins to get ready to go to the field... i'm back though. prolly spend my free time this evening playing WoW, but i'll try to correct some of those issues either tonight or tomorow
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