1st in Damage - Or - Who Cares...Follow

In that non-raid setting, it's absolutely fine (and probably better) to not go fullout and unload for highest DPS to keep the sheep.

I used to always resheep while it was only half-done the duration.

***** that warlock who was stroking his epeen.

Unless it's a ret paladin that out DPSes you, you're fine.

Remember, that level will play a big roll in all of this also. What levels are the toons you are playing with? What level are you? If they are a level or two above you, they should be doing more damage. Are you below the level of the mobs? your spells probably get resisted. Lock spells, with the correct talents, almost never get resisted at that level. In ZF, I would say who cares. If it were an heroic, I might care a little more, but probably not.

Ret dps really isn't that bad. Infinitely superior to ours pvp wise and not THAT far behind in PvE. Here you'll see a few paladins coming Nr.1 on dps meters on BT bossfights (Naj'entus and I can't remember what else). Sure, it doesn't mean they normally come first, but their dps is not nearly as bad as people thinks (and we do not normally come first, either). Just very gear dependent.

On another note, the top guild on my server (before they transferred) had a Boomkin topping damage meters on a regular basis so much so that a 0/21/40 warlock considered them tough competition.

It's not like with the current state of our pve dps we are in a position to be elitist anymore.

Edited, Jan 21st 2008 1:07am by Kavekk

Edited, Jan 21st 2008 1:07am by Kavekk

If non threat capped the dps difference is pretty large, thanks in no small part to imp shadowbolt. But yes, the huge differnece in raid utility is a problem too. But ours is etill different and normally required to some extent (sheeping) even though it consists of nought but sheep, and that is why people still take mages to raids. I'd say raid utility is more the class' saving grace than our DPS is.

On the WWS subject - check the link. It's full of good WWS reports for paladins (although it seems some of the best have expired). The only problem, in my opinion, is if, even with their utility, they are worth replacing a rogue with in the melee dps group, as melee spots are limited and WF is pretty large for a Retadin.

damage meters are for raid groups to find their weakest link (the strongest is actually the one who is of no concern)


what is with warlocks' obsession with their dps??? i'm surprised the 2 warlocks in your party weren't spending the whole time bragging to each other about how awesome their dps is.

successful run? then your dps was great, ty. ask the druid heal who he would kick first, if he had to: the mage or warlock at the top of the damage meter? mages win.

When I am in an instance, I don't pay attention to DPS meters if the mobs are going down and we are progressing smoothly. The thing to watch like a hawk is my threat meter. I pump out enough DPS to remain just under the tank on the threat meter and no more ( barring accidents). How much that is depends on the skill of the tank.

In personal DPS? If you run a Shadow Priest Imp. SB gets eaten up pretty quick - it's still a nice raid boost, but in terms of personal contribution it's not as significant. That's the problem, though... you're like a Rogue, if a Rogue did about as much damage as an Enhancement Shaman or a Retadin did. There just needs to be more group utility from Mages so you'd ever want to ideally bring more than one.

Manastonewell would be a start, but they really need either a) Another class who gives a damn about Imp. Scorch (or Winter's Chill, for that matter), or b) Some variation on curses or blessings. Even a group buff a la Elemental Shaman would help.

And as for "well, they're helpful on trash"... that's really an awful reason to bring people to raids. I mean... it's nice, but there are plenty of other (if less reliable) ways to deal with trash. Looking for boss damage is probably the better call.

I'd be interested to see some good Retadin WWS reports (Teron is the best damage parse fight at the moment), but so far I'm... let's go with "intensely skeptical".

the best way make a start on mage group utility would be to give us a mana aura. mages had it in W3, and i think an aura for +mp/5 would actually make us consider duration fights. the reason they aren't gonna do it is because shamans have such a thing and paladins too, though not as an aura.

allowing us to attack sheep without breaking the effect and without the healing would be another "fix" back to way things worked as described by lore, and would possibly give us a little boost in the right direction for pvp (warlocks have been able to do this since launch, so why not us?)

mages need white damage. dots possibly, but the LoS exploitation is a serious pvp problem for classes who must stand in one spot and cast for seconds at a time. a real fire dot would work miracles for pvp los issues, and something like creeping cold could be dreamed up for frosties. aside from oomkin (which is really only 1/3 of the class, not ALL druids), mages are the only class in the game who are rendered useless merely through consistently taking damage -- rather than requiring a real CC method to lock down. hunters are, for all intents and purposes, spell casters (ranged dps) but their damage cannot be stopped short of something that causes lose of control of their character, and even then they still have pets. bringing mages closer to this sort of performance wouldn't require that we do more damage, our base damage per spell could be decreased to make up for a gained ability to actually DEAL it in the first place.

dampen/amplify magic is, right now, even more useless than detect magic (which, i'll point out, they removed and gave to everyone for free, essentially) was. in the manner of paladin buffs, i'd like to see these two spells changed in a way that makes them not only worth using, but possibly with offensive uses as well. i can easily see this akin to the paladins' judgements. increasing the spell damage taken by targets and at the same time reducing damage taken by allies (and decreasing/increasing healing received) could allow mages to finally be useful to other classes than themselves. i believe this sort of functionality is what blizzard had in mind with improved scorch (in a raid setting) and i'd gladly up imp scorch for this kind of ability.

aside from counter spell, mages have no serious defenses against spell casters in the way shadow priests and warlocks have. mana burn should have been a mage spell all along, but whatever. spell steal was a great first step, but considering how outrageously expensive it is (compared to purge, dispel, devour magic, cleanse...) i think it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to ask for the mana cost to be reduced to about 20% of what it is now. if they did that, i could forgo my next request. which is to make improved counter spell automatic (remove the talent and just add that behavior to all mages' CS).

because, really, we don't have a wide variety of spells. as a pure caster class, it should be worrisome that only druids have a smaller spell selection than we do, but they have feral forms to make up for it whereas we still can't sustain top dps and neither do we have any definitive utility or CC role. warlocks have more CC options and capability than we do (roughly three or four times the number of abilities, depending on how you count your fears), and despite the ubiquity of humanoids, beasts and dragonkin, sheep is just not the most important or even most powerful CC method. disappointing when you remember that the mage class was officially defined as utility, CC and magical dps at launch...

as long as i'm wishing for the world, i'd also like to see the water elemental become a permanent pet for all mages. perhaps obtained somewhere in the middle levels. obviously the elemental's damage output should be reduced in this case, and i'd like to see other abilities granted to it (why not? hunter pets and warlock pets have almost as many different abilities possible as druids have spells!), but this doesn't mean it would have to be a tank either. it's just pathetic that frost mages only have three abilities without a cooldown, one of them is channeled and another you don't get till level 66. sure, they're decent enough abilities and some are important for all mages, but is it too much to ask that my class require more involved thought and action than i could easily program a bot to do? i'm about to have to replace my "1" key while "2" - "=" have visible dust on them (well, not now that i pressed 2 and =).

and yes, i'm even irked about molten shield. warlocks who's dots gain massive bonuses from +dmg, got a self buff that gives even more +dmg on top of augmenting their outrageous endurance (a warlock can life tap huge amounts of mana from just a single lifebloom, for instance, and i don't any reason for them to have special treatment from a healer on top of their mana generation capabilities). the damage shield portion of molten shield is just pathetic. you'd deal more damage if you got a free melee swing with your equipped weapon every time you were hit. the reduction in crits received is a decent enough effect, just far too weak to really be worth consideration in pvp where our life expectancy is approximately the time it takes a hunter to press three buttons. and, really, pvp is why that 5% crit reduction is even there. the crit rate increase is also nice -- who can complain about extra damage. except when it's a measly 3% and what mages really need is reliable damage output, not spikes on their threat meter. for starters, mages' strong point is against melee attackers already: what we really fear are ranged attackers, and last i saw, molten armor didn't do anything to them. i'd gladly trade my molten armor to any warlock -- i need that 20% extra healing while i'm AoEing in a raid/group, thank you very much, and it's much more important for me then than it is for a warlock who just wants to steal some of the healer's mana.

sure, i'm whining. sure i'm green with envy. but mages have a right to be, i think. and in that case, it's not whining or jealousy at all; it's an objective observation.

You have the right idea; you should never let your DPS become a problem for the group, instance or raid. I'm sorry that the player mocked you, but let's face it: Mages simply cannot go all-out in most situations because it'll create problems (especially since you're a Fire Mage; you get more than enough DPS to make your 10% threat reduction all but meaningless).

As long as you (edit) are managing threat, maintaining CC, etc., go nuts. ^_^ And if you observe in a certain fight that you can go all out without serious repercussion (like the ZF Pyramid Battle), do so and laugh all the way to victory.

Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 10:41am by PsydonX

Since most mages dont seem to be using sheep macros, here's what I use.

/clearfocus [button:2]
/stopcasting
/cast [target=focus,exists,nodead] Polymorph(Rank 4)
/stopmacro [target=focus,exists,nodead]
/clearfocus [target=focus,exists,nodead]
/focus [harm,exists,nodead]

First click sets the focus, the next click will cast sheep whether or not your target is selected.

Right click the icon if you wish to set a new focus target during the fight.

I used to top the dmg meters in raid environments and most 5 mans, finally realised it was better to just turn off the dmg meter and watch the run go smoothly (as much as it can).

On the topic of ret pallies, whoever said they're a useless probably doesnt know crusader strike and the effect it has. How do you like permanently having seal of wisdom on a boss during raids? Or seal of light (i think it's seal of light... the healing one) for you melee DPS? Sure not every raid group has a ret pally available, but he wont be useless thats for sure. If geared properly, he will do more than decent damage too (void reaver, lurker below).

As a person who also plays a healadin, it's not all that hard to joust in to keep up the debuff. Believe me, I know all about Crusader Strike. However, this really isn't the place to argue ret paladins. The paladin board here gets that more than enough(consensus is that their utility isn't good enough utility to make up for the fact that the player has to be amazing to put out decent DPS).