Unanswered damage makes baby Jesus smile. Regardless of the tactics used to achieve it. If the enemy decides to come attack the Hunter, then the kiting can begin with the enemy already being wounded, increasing the odds for victory. If the enemy decides to leave the Hunter alone, that can be an advantage also. It's easy to describe situations in which this tactic might be suboptimal, but from a strategic level it's the way General officers fight intelligent wars: Do unto others with as little casualty as possible.
What I'm seeing more of is a knee-jerk reaction based on some sense of outrage that the Hunter isn't charging in and going "Pew pew, I'm winning on DPS!" Again, you're describing a situation, charging in, in which the tactic becomes invalid. So your logic is circular: It's a poor tactic, because you should be doing things which make it a poor tactic.
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Unanswered damage... yay... a few bites and a nip on an enemy. Now let's see what that time could have been spent doing...
1. Doing some damage yourself. This would easily increase the damage done to the enemy/other team by 66% or more. Ahah... alot better.
2. Stay with the attackers/defenders and toss off stings, Concs, Dispels and so on. Add talent skills after taste. Oh, damage and utility.
3. If defending a flag/resource: Let your pet stay somewhat close, allowing for dealing with those who manage to sneak up on said cap zone while your pet was haring off in the distance. Whaddaya know? Usefulness instead of a piddly little amount of damage which is easily negated by a stun/two bandage ticks.
4. Attacking a flag/resource: Your pet alone isn't going to cap jack sh*t. With yourself in the mix, you can trap a defender, kill another and take the resource after dealing with said trapped defender.
5. Random encounter in World PvP or between objectives in Team PvP: You could do all of the above, finish the fight and go on, or spend the rest of the BG with that "tactic" while praying that someone comes to finish off the fellow your pet is fighting all alone.
So, let's look at the negative sides of not being a little cUnt.
1. You might take some damage. OH NO! I'd better stay the hell out of BGs from now on. Or, I could use *drumroll* the TACTIC! Or just bandage between fights/ress after a loss and go back to being useful again.
2. You could die. Not really the end of the world. If you die, it's either because you lack skill or got outgeared/numbered. Doubtful anyway, as a Hunter. There's few classes out there that can match us for sheer survival, and that's pretty much Druids only.
3... You know, I can't think of any other downsides to actually fight in a BG.
It all boils down to this:
The "Unanswered Damage" you are talking about, means absolutely bupkiss for a win or a loss. You aren't making any difference, whatsoever. If you yourself, however, go in a fight, you can make that difference. If you find yourself being targeted, you can still make a difference by taking that guy out of the fight by kiting. Even if you die, you've made ten times more difference than you've done by hiding in a bush while your pet did the work.
Edit:
Forgot to deal with that ridiculous comparison to generals...
This isn't real life warfare. A casualty in WoW doesn't exist. You ress, and you go back to the fight with barely a pause. If you die in every single fight you are in, you will still have done more than your pet alone would have. Your death's have benefited your team, instead of robbed them of a fighter.
Casualties in real life don't get Spirit Ressed, and thus you kinda want to avoid said casualties. The only way that would have applied would have been in an Arena. And you can't hide in an arena anyway.
Edited, Jan 21st 2008 10:22am by NorthAI
1. Doing some damage yourself. This would easily increase the damage done to the enemy/other team by 66% or more. Ahah... alot better.
2. Stay with the attackers/defenders and toss off stings, Concs, Dispels and so on. Add talent skills after taste. Oh, damage and utility.
3. If defending a flag/resource: Let your pet stay somewhat close, allowing for dealing with those who manage to sneak up on said cap zone while your pet was haring off in the distance. Whaddaya know? Usefulness instead of a piddly little amount of damage which is easily negated by a stun/two bandage ticks.
4. Attacking a flag/resource: Your pet alone isn't going to cap jack sh*t. With yourself in the mix, you can trap a defender, kill another and take the resource after dealing with said trapped defender.
5. Random encounter in World PvP or between objectives in Team PvP: You could do all of the above, finish the fight and go on, or spend the rest of the BG with that "tactic" while praying that someone comes to finish off the fellow your pet is fighting all alone.
So, let's look at the negative sides of not being a little cUnt.
1. You might take some damage. OH NO! I'd better stay the hell out of BGs from now on. Or, I could use *drumroll* the TACTIC! Or just bandage between fights/ress after a loss and go back to being useful again.
2. You could die. Not really the end of the world. If you die, it's either because you lack skill or got outgeared/numbered. Doubtful anyway, as a Hunter. There's few classes out there that can match us for sheer survival, and that's pretty much Druids only.
3... You know, I can't think of any other downsides to actually fight in a BG.
It all boils down to this:
The "Unanswered Damage" you are talking about, means absolutely bupkiss for a win or a loss. You aren't making any difference, whatsoever. If you yourself, however, go in a fight, you can make that difference. If you find yourself being targeted, you can still make a difference by taking that guy out of the fight by kiting. Even if you die, you've made ten times more difference than you've done by hiding in a bush while your pet did the work.
Edit:
Forgot to deal with that ridiculous comparison to generals...
This isn't real life warfare. A casualty in WoW doesn't exist. You ress, and you go back to the fight with barely a pause. If you die in every single fight you are in, you will still have done more than your pet alone would have. Your death's have benefited your team, instead of robbed them of a fighter.
Casualties in real life don't get Spirit Ressed, and thus you kinda want to avoid said casualties. The only way that would have applied would have been in an Arena. And you can't hide in an arena anyway.
Edited, Jan 21st 2008 10:22am by NorthAI
first of all complaining about a tactic as cowardly is ridiculous.
The only point I have to make is about sending your pet off into the distance when on defence. Let's say I'm defending LM. I see a couple enemies coming towards me, but I can't defend the node by myself. I'll send my pet in and mark them, but stay at the node myself, posting in /bg that I need help. Often my pet will delay them, not because it is so uber, but just because between intimidation, and looking around for the hunter, they'll be distracted. It's not going to kill anyone, but as a distraction it's great. If I would go down to attack them myself I'd be killed and when the rest of the defense arrives they'd be a man down, until I rezzed, which could very well be too late. On defense you want to delay your death. This way I can remain stealthed and wait till the best time to open up.
I've gotten whole groups to stop on the bridge before ST just by sending my pet at them. This isn't a tactic that you use on attack, or if you want to kill someone, but it's great for distraction. of course it was stupid of the horde to stop there, but so many people are stupid :)
BG's are about tactics and teamwork, not about you. North I'm surprised, from reading your posts I'm getting the impression of this suicidal madman strategy of running in and firing, which if you're on defense against a bunch of people will get you killed and the node lost. Now knowing you, I'm pretty sure you don't do this, just thought I'd let you know the impression I'm getting from some of your posts here.
Edited, Jan 21st 2008 11:30am by Xsarus
The only point I have to make is about sending your pet off into the distance when on defence. Let's say I'm defending LM. I see a couple enemies coming towards me, but I can't defend the node by myself. I'll send my pet in and mark them, but stay at the node myself, posting in /bg that I need help. Often my pet will delay them, not because it is so uber, but just because between intimidation, and looking around for the hunter, they'll be distracted. It's not going to kill anyone, but as a distraction it's great. If I would go down to attack them myself I'd be killed and when the rest of the defense arrives they'd be a man down, until I rezzed, which could very well be too late. On defense you want to delay your death. This way I can remain stealthed and wait till the best time to open up.
I've gotten whole groups to stop on the bridge before ST just by sending my pet at them. This isn't a tactic that you use on attack, or if you want to kill someone, but it's great for distraction. of course it was stupid of the horde to stop there, but so many people are stupid :)
BG's are about tactics and teamwork, not about you. North I'm surprised, from reading your posts I'm getting the impression of this suicidal madman strategy of running in and firing, which if you're on defense against a bunch of people will get you killed and the node lost. Now knowing you, I'm pretty sure you don't do this, just thought I'd let you know the impression I'm getting from some of your posts here.
Edited, Jan 21st 2008 11:30am by Xsarus
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Xsarus, that's an entirely different tactic than the OP was originally talking about. He was talking about honor farming with that tactic, not using it as a distraction. Later, once he realized all the flaws we'd presented, he added context and in the process completely changed what he was doing.
Yeah, that would indeed be a very wrong impression. However, tucking your tail between your legs and running away from an enemy, when you can stay within shooting range and actually do something useful, would never... ever be a useful strategy or tactic. I am not promoting running into a fight frothing at the mouth, but I have nothing but scorn for the Hunters who willingly stay out of shooting range "because it's unanswered damage".
Newsflash... you will never be as useful in a BG/World PvP/Arena as when you are within killrange. Xsarus is right of course, you can distract someone if you are very lucky. However, what would you do then if a Rogue crept up behind ya? Your pet isn't there to help you, (intimidate, as Bordagar outlined for his build. A bit of damage and added confusion to the fight in any other specc) nor do you have a backup to toss on the second Rogue/Druid/Mage who is taking advantage of the situation and capping the flag.
That tactic is so highly situational, that even at the very best of times, it has too many cons to be a valid course of action. In 99% of the events, it will be better to keep your pet closer to you.
And yes, cowardice is indeed a completely valid way of describing it. Being inefficient, willingly, so you can avoid damage at all costs is cowardice. You are being detrimental to your group, by prioritizing yourself over all else.
Newsflash... you will never be as useful in a BG/World PvP/Arena as when you are within killrange. Xsarus is right of course, you can distract someone if you are very lucky. However, what would you do then if a Rogue crept up behind ya? Your pet isn't there to help you, (intimidate, as Bordagar outlined for his build. A bit of damage and added confusion to the fight in any other specc) nor do you have a backup to toss on the second Rogue/Druid/Mage who is taking advantage of the situation and capping the flag.
That tactic is so highly situational, that even at the very best of times, it has too many cons to be a valid course of action. In 99% of the events, it will be better to keep your pet closer to you.
And yes, cowardice is indeed a completely valid way of describing it. Being inefficient, willingly, so you can avoid damage at all costs is cowardice. You are being detrimental to your group, by prioritizing yourself over all else.
Skribs wrote:
where you're "out of sight" how are the enemies supposed to find you and come off a resource node?
They don't see where the pet comes from the first time, maybe not even the second time. By the third time they usually see a big white owl coming out from behind a rock. Which way did he go George?
Quote:
I wing clip + raptor strike so I get in even more damage.
Excellent tip, implemented and thanks!
Quote:
If you're at "max view range" your pet will not benefit from mend pet.
I said 'about the same as Hunter's mark', which you will find is borderline shooting range and pet despawn range, and ALL of my abilities are available for use at this range except for shooting, which is a brief instep away.. Max view range is
skribs wrote:
What you're talking about now is entirely different from what you said at first.
North wrote:
Staying at max viewrange
So back on track:
Quote:
This new tactic you mention (which is new, because it's completely different than what you said earlier)
Actually is the same damn thing, with one example as explanation. Key words to pay attention to (see my second post) WHAT COMES NEXT
A strategic mind will take the sample group and implement it into a variety of scenarios, called (amazingly enough) scenario planning. I was simply hoping that 1) you would not misread my text, 2) you would not misquote someone else thinking it was my words, and 3) that you would think of the next step for it's versatility and respect the sample group for that value not so much for the first negative flame you could light.
North wrote:
I appreciate that you obviously feel the need to distance yourself from your original "tactic" by adding alot of completely different things that "you intended with your original "tactic"
Wrong again love, it's an example. I am sorry that as your guild's premade organizer that you fail so blatently at implementing concepts into the playing field. Expand your horizons darling, I am sure people listen to you because you downtalk people so much, and simply getting anyone to do what you say in PvP is a HUGE milestone, so I commend you for that. Don't be afraid of new things though, and please please share some of your tactics so that this community can benefit from your wisdom, rather than applaud your judgements. You're cool, ok? Norly, rly cool.
Quote:
You still can't do any of the above while using that vaunted tactic of yours. Why even bring this up?
Sure you can. Because whilst my pet is doing that, let's look at some other possibilities in the game field; I could be kiting someone. I could be jousting someone. I could be in a fray dropping AoEs whilst my pet is doing this. The enemy might call his friends to come get me forcing me into a joust. You cannot presume to conclude every possible outcome of a single tactic by saying 'A single moment lasts for an eternity'. When we talk football there is a pause in between plays. In PvP there isn't a pause, it's dynamic and constantly changing. You don't have the privelege of assuming a permanent state at any given moment of the battle. You act like I said my initial post was the 'Fixed I.W.I.N. Button'.
north wrote:
That's not the matter of discussion right now. Your failure to even be within shooting range is.
Again, I challenge you to share some of your tactics and please address (yes reply to yourself, could be fun!) them with the same courtesy you give everyone else here.
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
Unanswered damage... yay... a few bites and a nip on an enemy. Now let's see what that time could have been spent doing...
Irrelevant. Unanswered damage. Read carefully. No matter what circumstantial situation you can envision in which you could have been doing something else, it's still a good thing in any situation in which you can pull it off. There's really nothing you can say which can refute this, and emotional outbursts to the contrary do nothing to convince anyone who understands what winning is all about.
You don't have to do a single point of damage to an opposing character win any of the BGs. The victory conditions do not include kill counts or damage inflicted. And despite your arguments to the contrary, the time you spend ressing after you die does make you useless to your team for that period of time. During which some other player can be inflicting another few nips and bites.
Edit:
I forgot to address your predilection for having both sides your way.
You can't both claim that there is no penalty for death while also continually beating on the drum of cowardice, as if any player actually feels pain when his character takes damage. Pick one, you can't have both.
And, you can't claim that a tactic which can inflict unanswered damage is useless, while at the same time claiming that there is no penalty for death. You're forgetting the time to ress, rebuff, and get back to someplace you can be useful. Pick one, you can't have both.
Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 1:46am by Kompera
Quote:
You can't both claim that there is no penalty for death while also continually beating on the drum of cowardice, as if any player actually feels pain when his character takes damage. Pick one, you can't have both.
And, you can't claim that a tactic which can inflict unanswered damage is useless, while at the same time claiming that there is no penalty for death. You're forgetting the time to ress, rebuff, and get back to someplace you can be useful. Pick one, you can't have both.
Time to res, buff, and...sit in the corner doing more of nothing? By the way "no penalty for death" and "you're a coward for not taking damage" aren't mutually exclusive. Not only is the person afraid of dying, he's afraid of a severely less penalty than it seems!
Quote:
I said 'about the same as Hunter's mark', which you will find is borderline shooting range and pet despawn range, and ALL of my abilities are available for use at this range except for shooting, which is a brief instep away.. Max view range is
Hunters mark is 100 yards. Max shooting range (if you got hawkeye) is 41 yards. So you're "borderline" looked a lot like 2 1/2 times the shot range. And when you said I misquoted someone else...I quoted your posts exactly so idk who else I misquoted.
And north didnt feed me these thoughts. If you'll go back and read I actually posted BEFORE him. And I'm 90% sure he came up with those thoughts on his own, too. So that means you've got two people both saying you're stretching yourself if you can take tactic A from your original post and make it fit into tactic B from the example. Tactic B is okay (I'm not gonna judge it as pro or coward) but tactic A is retarded to every extreme that it should be a special olympic event.
A few of the things I like to do in BGs:
1. Scatter Shot + trap = ownage. Typically I'm very close when I use it anyway and all it takes is a quick hop forward to the general area your target is aimlessly wandering for 4 seconds to drop that trap. Even if they trinket out of it, oh well. That's one less trinket use for at least two minutes if I expect it to be a 1v1 extended fight.
2. Scare Beast + Druid in animal form. I love this move, I am reasonably certain they never see it coming. Find a druid in bear or cat form, get close and pop the scare beast. If they're busy they won't even think to attack you because...who expects a hunter at melee range to be casting fear?
3. Shadowmeld ambushes (exclusive to Night Elf hunters, of course). This is also pretty fun. Works pretty well in ABs if I'm defending a node. A few nights ago I had an epic 1v1 with a rogue where I opened with this move. Pet started in on him then I landed an aimed shot, kited for a bit with scatter, concussive and wyvern sting, laid a trap or two. He never even got close.
4. Eagle Eye is your friend. From the Lumber Mill node in AB Eagle Eye can see every other node, though catching a good look of the Gold Mine is a little tough and may take a few tries.
5. Target those healers! Paladins, shamans, druids, priests, I try to pounce on them whenever possible. I'm glad I started using PersonalSentry a few months ago, it has been a godsend for my BG efficiency. In a nutshell, when I have Humanoid tracking up and I can see enemy dots on the minimap, mousing over those dots on the minimap populates a list of those targets that I can then just click on from there to target it myself (except when that target is really far away). Has their name, level and class. Perfect for finding the healers.
6. Never be on the front lines. I learned this the hard way. Hunters are not warriors. Hunters are not paladins. Hunters are not, in any way, meant to be the one to lead a charge. Stay back, pick targets that are already fighting, and keep moving with the group. Always lay a trap and stand on it where applicable. If you start getting attacked, do whatever it takes to get away until that enemy player attacking you gets distracted with something else. Why risk a 1v1 that could quickly turn into a 2v1 or 3v1?
So yea, this is some of the stuff I do. It's worked well for me so far.
1. Scatter Shot + trap = ownage. Typically I'm very close when I use it anyway and all it takes is a quick hop forward to the general area your target is aimlessly wandering for 4 seconds to drop that trap. Even if they trinket out of it, oh well. That's one less trinket use for at least two minutes if I expect it to be a 1v1 extended fight.
2. Scare Beast + Druid in animal form. I love this move, I am reasonably certain they never see it coming. Find a druid in bear or cat form, get close and pop the scare beast. If they're busy they won't even think to attack you because...who expects a hunter at melee range to be casting fear?
3. Shadowmeld ambushes (exclusive to Night Elf hunters, of course). This is also pretty fun. Works pretty well in ABs if I'm defending a node. A few nights ago I had an epic 1v1 with a rogue where I opened with this move. Pet started in on him then I landed an aimed shot, kited for a bit with scatter, concussive and wyvern sting, laid a trap or two. He never even got close.
4. Eagle Eye is your friend. From the Lumber Mill node in AB Eagle Eye can see every other node, though catching a good look of the Gold Mine is a little tough and may take a few tries.
5. Target those healers! Paladins, shamans, druids, priests, I try to pounce on them whenever possible. I'm glad I started using PersonalSentry a few months ago, it has been a godsend for my BG efficiency. In a nutshell, when I have Humanoid tracking up and I can see enemy dots on the minimap, mousing over those dots on the minimap populates a list of those targets that I can then just click on from there to target it myself (except when that target is really far away). Has their name, level and class. Perfect for finding the healers.
6. Never be on the front lines. I learned this the hard way. Hunters are not warriors. Hunters are not paladins. Hunters are not, in any way, meant to be the one to lead a charge. Stay back, pick targets that are already fighting, and keep moving with the group. Always lay a trap and stand on it where applicable. If you start getting attacked, do whatever it takes to get away until that enemy player attacking you gets distracted with something else. Why risk a 1v1 that could quickly turn into a 2v1 or 3v1?
So yea, this is some of the stuff I do. It's worked well for me so far.
skribs wrote:
Time to res, buff, and...sit in the corner doing more of nothing?
skribs wrote:
By the way "no penalty for death" and "you're a coward for not taking damage" aren't mutually exclusive. Not only is the person afraid of dying, he's afraid of a severely less penalty than it seems!
Edited, Jan 22nd 2008 3:56am by Kompera
Quote:
Now you're not only arguing pointlessly about how someone else choses to employ a tactic which can offer unanswered damage, but you're not even making any logical sense. "There is no penalty for death" logically makes any penalty for injury also nonexistent. So to claim that there is no penalty for digital death while accusing someone of digital cowardice for mere digital injury is self-contradictory. Again, you can't have it both ways.
Ah, you were talking about a different person then I was, then. Still, the difference between being more or less useful has already been presented.
I'd like to point out that the penalty for death can often be a node lost. When you are underpowered to defend a node, any delay is good. This includes sending your pet in by itself, and stealthing so you can shoot to interrupt the capping of the flag. It also might include running away to group up with the 4 people coming to help so that you can hit them harder rather then dying and then rezing far away because they capped the flag.
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