I am a pretty bright guy... I have looked through these boards (Love the stickies and bookmarked Osiris chart as a guide) but please help me understand
Quote:
"Regardless of talent builds, all rogues look for a slow, high damage main hand and fast off-hand either high DPS and/or stats."
Why slow? How slow? Anything to do with global cooldown ?
I am using hanzo sword and a faster dagger and don't see the higher numbers... but everything turns into a blur.
Thanks in advance for your patient response.
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Why so slow ????Follow
It's not specifically that you want a weapon that's slow, it's that you want a weapon with highest instant damage.
Since weapons of X level are balanced by their DPS, a weapon that is slower will have a higher per hit strike compared to a weapon with fast speed. That's why you want a 'slow' weapon, because each strike will hit for more, and most rogue hit speed is determined by your energy regeneration rate, not your attack speed.
Make sense?
Since weapons of X level are balanced by their DPS, a weapon that is slower will have a higher per hit strike compared to a weapon with fast speed. That's why you want a 'slow' weapon, because each strike will hit for more, and most rogue hit speed is determined by your energy regeneration rate, not your attack speed.
Make sense?
I wish people would stop saying 'look for a slow weapon'. It's misleading. They need to look at a high dmg weapon not a slow weapon. The reason is because if you compare two 100 dps (damage per second) swords to each other with different attack speeds, the slower one will have higher dmg per hit but less hits. The faster one will have lower dmg per hit but more hits.
If you're comparing two weapons with equal dmg per hit always always take the faster one. Now speed on the off hand can make a difference with things like sword & poison procs. Most procs are normalized which means speed doesn't really matter.
If you're comparing two weapons with equal dmg per hit always always take the faster one. Now speed on the off hand can make a difference with things like sword & poison procs. Most procs are normalized which means speed doesn't really matter.
6 posts
Thank you both... mucho clearer now.... High damage main and fast off-hand... and obviously not too slow in main nor too small damage in off... thx
Two words...Felsteel Longblade.
Salwrathis wrote:
Two words...Felsteel Longblade.
...is an example of a weapon that is bad for a rogue.
Actually it's not that bad, even with its mid speed it has pretty high damage being an epic, but any higher delay epic has a higher damage and would be more desirable.
On one hand, they look like death, which makes up a bit for its lower stats compared to other epics
On the other hand, experienced opponents are going to get a "lol, nub" morality bonus against you.
I cried earlier when I saw a Rogue dual-wielding Felsteel Longblades.
No excuse for that...
No excuse for that...
Lol. Yeah, I saw a rogue duel wielding Felsteel Longblades, with mongoose. He spent well over 1000 gold for a dumb combo.
Felsteel Longblade is a waste of money. For not much more money, or from some farming, you could get Exalted with the Aldor and get the Vindicator's brand, which is amazing.
But yeah, for weapon choice, you want the highest average damage for your MH with speed being of no real concern. For your offhand, you want the fastest weapon possible, with DPS being of a secondary concern. A 71 DPS 1.4 speed sword is better than a 97 DPS 2.6 speed. If I could MH a 3.6 speed weapon, I would wet myself with excitement. The closest you'll ever get, though, is the Warp Slicer during Kael'thas. 461 top end on a 1h weapon? Pure sex. 2.5k crit hemos were nice before hemo got the nerfbat.
But yeah, for weapon choice, you want the highest average damage for your MH with speed being of no real concern. For your offhand, you want the fastest weapon possible, with DPS being of a secondary concern. A 71 DPS 1.4 speed sword is better than a 97 DPS 2.6 speed. If I could MH a 3.6 speed weapon, I would wet myself with excitement. The closest you'll ever get, though, is the Warp Slicer during Kael'thas. 461 top end on a 1h weapon? Pure sex. 2.5k crit hemos were nice before hemo got the nerfbat.
Nooblestick wrote:
A 71 DPS 1.4 speed sword is better than a 97 DPS 2.6 speed.
assuming 5/5 dw spec, can poison procs really make up the 19.5 dps difference?
axhed wrote:
assuming 5/5 dw spec, can poison procs really make up the 19.5 dps difference?
Poison procs are only part of it. For a combat build, Combat Potency is a straight 20% chance on hit to return 15 energy. You're going to return a lot more energy with a fast off hand than you will with a slow offhand, and that translates into more instant attacks/finishers.
So is the DPS the important stat or the actual damage listing?
Would you take something that is like
27-51 Damage / Speed 2.80
13.9 DPS
for main hand or something like
13-25 Damage / Speed 1.30
14.6 DPS
I guess "highest instant damage" is a little confusing. Is that the DPS or is it the actual damage?
Sorry for another newby question.
Would you take something that is like
27-51 Damage / Speed 2.80
13.9 DPS
for main hand or something like
13-25 Damage / Speed 1.30
14.6 DPS
I guess "highest instant damage" is a little confusing. Is that the DPS or is it the actual damage?
Sorry for another newby question.
The first one.
Let's do some math here, assuming you're around level 16-20, which fits the dps range you're giving here. You'll be using sinister strike rank 3, which gives +10dmg.
Weapon A (Slow):
27-51 Damage / Speed 2.80
13.9 DPS
Average Sinister Strike dmg: (27 + 51)/2 + 10 = 49
You need 40 energy for SS, you regain 20 energy per 2 seconds.
You can do 1 SS per 4 second. So in this case, your SS adds 12.5 to your dps.
Total DPS: 26.15
Weapob B (Fast)
13-25 Damage / Speed 1.30
14.6 DPS
Average Sinister Strike dmg: (13 + 25)/2 + 10 = 29
You need 40 energy for SS, you regain 20 energy per 2 seconds.
You can do 1 SS per 4 second. So in this case, your SS adds 7.5 to your dps.
Total DPS: 21.85
You need the fast weapon to have a MUCH higher dps value then the slow weapon in order for it to be a good MH... While it is misleading to say you want a slow weapon when you really mean is that you want a weapon with a high damage range, the fact is slow weapon have high damage range.
This is extremely simplistic of course. It ignore finishers, attack power, crit rating (Which further increase the gap, you have equal chance of critting with a slow or fast weapon's instant attack, but the crit on the slow weapon will hurt a lot more) and everything else in there... but you get the idea.
Also, as you level and the weapon range on damage increase, so will the dps gap between a slow and a fast weapon increase. At level 70, the difference between using a 2.8 MH and 1.3 OH with the same dps would be pretty massively favoring the slower weapon.
And it's actually more then that, since you need to factor in the initial 'burst' (you'll be able to get 1 or 2 SS right away at the beginning of a fight) and combat potency, which mean you'll be getting more SS out, further widening the gap.
Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 8:25pm by Tyrandor
Let's do some math here, assuming you're around level 16-20, which fits the dps range you're giving here. You'll be using sinister strike rank 3, which gives +10dmg.
Weapon A (Slow):
27-51 Damage / Speed 2.80
13.9 DPS
Average Sinister Strike dmg: (27 + 51)/2 + 10 = 49
You need 40 energy for SS, you regain 20 energy per 2 seconds.
You can do 1 SS per 4 second. So in this case, your SS adds 12.5 to your dps.
Total DPS: 26.15
Weapob B (Fast)
13-25 Damage / Speed 1.30
14.6 DPS
Average Sinister Strike dmg: (13 + 25)/2 + 10 = 29
You need 40 energy for SS, you regain 20 energy per 2 seconds.
You can do 1 SS per 4 second. So in this case, your SS adds 7.5 to your dps.
Total DPS: 21.85
You need the fast weapon to have a MUCH higher dps value then the slow weapon in order for it to be a good MH... While it is misleading to say you want a slow weapon when you really mean is that you want a weapon with a high damage range, the fact is slow weapon have high damage range.
This is extremely simplistic of course. It ignore finishers, attack power, crit rating (Which further increase the gap, you have equal chance of critting with a slow or fast weapon's instant attack, but the crit on the slow weapon will hurt a lot more) and everything else in there... but you get the idea.
Also, as you level and the weapon range on damage increase, so will the dps gap between a slow and a fast weapon increase. At level 70, the difference between using a 2.8 MH and 1.3 OH with the same dps would be pretty massively favoring the slower weapon.
And it's actually more then that, since you need to factor in the initial 'burst' (you'll be able to get 1 or 2 SS right away at the beginning of a fight) and combat potency, which mean you'll be getting more SS out, further widening the gap.
Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 8:25pm by Tyrandor
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
You need the fast weapon to have a MUCH higher dps value then the slow weapon in order for it to be a good MH... While it is misleading to say you want a slow weapon when you really mean is that you want a weapon with a high damage range, the fact is slow weapon have high damage range.
OK I think I get it. For now I want whatever weapon has the highest "XX-XX Damage". I get what you are saying that it isn't that it's slower that makes it the weapon I want, it's that slower weapons just have a higher damage on them usually.
For off hand would I want another slow weapon with high damage or just find the fastest weapon with decent damage that I can?
I guess the other question that I would have is, is there a post or guide that you can point me to that sort of breaks down the true benefits of agility. When is it better to actually get the weapon that has less damage but has a little bit of agility. It's easy on hunter because I don't use my melee weapons much so I go with whatever has the most agility to help my ranged attacks but with rogue I am not sure how much +agi something needs to have to offset lower damage. I know that question can be a thread of it's own so that was why I was asking if someone can point me to a guide (or if there is even one) but I can create a new thread if that is what is suggested.
MrTalos wrote:
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
You need the fast weapon to have a MUCH higher dps value then the slow weapon in order for it to be a good MH... While it is misleading to say you want a slow weapon when you really mean is that you want a weapon with a high damage range, the fact is slow weapon have high damage range.
OK I think I get it. For now I want whatever weapon has the highest "XX-XX Damage". I get what you are saying that it isn't that it's slower that makes it the weapon I want, it's that slower weapons just have a higher damage on them usually.
Yes. Overall slower weapons have higher dmg. The reason is to keep slow and fast weapons balanced to the same lvl of dps. If you had a slow weapon with the same dmg per hit as a fast weapon why would you ever take the slower one? The faster one would have a higher dps.
You probably won't find a fast weapon with the same dmg per hit as a slower weapon unless the required lvl of the faster one is a much higher lvl than the slower one. This is why people say the slower is better. The fact is though is the speed has nothing to do with why it's better. This is why looking for a slower weapon is misleading. It irks me when players say this.
Hopefully players look at everything when considering an upgrade. For example let's say you have 2 swords.
75 dmg w/ 2.6 sec = 28.8 dps
80 dmg w/ 2.5 sec = 32 dps
The dmg difference isn't that much. The speed difference isn't that much. However if I asked someone and they said to go with the slower weapon it'd be false in this case. I'd lose 5 dmg on my special attacks and it'd be slower. The faster one would hit harder as well as make my special attacks hit harder. The difference is small but your dps would be lower with the slower one than the faster one.
Now if I looked at the dmg per hit instead of the speed I'd clearly take the faster one.
Think of it this way. Computer hardware has a certain cost. Now let's say you have $2000 dollars to buy a new computer. You go to store A and they give you a certain spec list of everything you can get for that price. Now you go to store B and the list is the same. You jump to the conclusion that $2000 will get you exactly that. Spend any less and you'll get less. Now you go to store C and they have the exact same setup as store A and B except at $1800 instead of $2000. Since you concluded that spending less will result in less you clearly think that buying from store A or B is the way to go. That's false because you're getting the same exact hardware at 10% off. You're not getting less but getting more for your money.
This is the same kind of thinking behind the 'slower weapon in the main hand'. It's false and you should be looking at dmg because that's the stat that's really effecting the mechanics behind it.
Now the off-hand is different and speed plays a much bigger role in dps than the dmg. The reason is because the off-hand has things like poison procs & combat potency that proc per hit. Faster weapons means more hits. The more hits you get off the more procs you get. The dmg from the off-hand doesn't affect things like sinister strike.
So with the Main hand dmg will take the top priority because that will increase your dps the most. In the off-hand speed takes priority because it increase your dps the most. Also shiv costs less energy the faster your off-hand is.
MrTalos wrote:
For off hand would I want another slow weapon with high damage or just find the fastest weapon with decent damage that I can?
So in the case of off-hand faster is better.
Yeah, you want a fast Off-hand.
If all you're doing is white attacks with no poisons, then the speed of the OH doesn't matter and what matters is the DPS of said weapon. However, you're not going to be only doing white attacks.
So here's why you want a fast OH-Hand:
Poison Procs: You will get more poison application with a faster weapon. Using instant poison on your OH (and Deadly MH) is a typical setup. In this case, the fast weapon will get more IP procs and will end up giving you a much better dps.
Combat Potency: Only an issue if you are deep combat, but then again, who isn't nowaday? The faster the OH, the more procs you get. This is actually fairly disgusting as far as talents goes. Latro's shifting sword is a better OH weapon then many Epic, simply because it is so fast and thus get you so many CP procs, that you'll end up outdpsing someone with a 'technically' better Off hand.
Shiv: Shiv is a crappy damage ability. It's designed to not do good damage and cost way to much energy. The only reason you want to use it is to apply a specific poison (usually crippling in pvp or to stack wound in pvp as well). While technically, a slow OH mean a more powerful Shiv, it also means a much more costly Shiv (meaning you actually get worse damage per energy). So you want a fast OH to minimize the cost of Shiv.
The math for the cost of Shiv is 20 + (Weapon Speed X 10).
1.3 Weapon = 33 energy
2.1 weapon = 51 energy!
The one exception to this rule are Mutilate Rogues. Mutilate Rogues want a dagger with a high damage range (i.e. Slow) for their OH.
If all you're doing is white attacks with no poisons, then the speed of the OH doesn't matter and what matters is the DPS of said weapon. However, you're not going to be only doing white attacks.
So here's why you want a fast OH-Hand:
Poison Procs: You will get more poison application with a faster weapon. Using instant poison on your OH (and Deadly MH) is a typical setup. In this case, the fast weapon will get more IP procs and will end up giving you a much better dps.
Combat Potency: Only an issue if you are deep combat, but then again, who isn't nowaday? The faster the OH, the more procs you get. This is actually fairly disgusting as far as talents goes. Latro's shifting sword is a better OH weapon then many Epic, simply because it is so fast and thus get you so many CP procs, that you'll end up outdpsing someone with a 'technically' better Off hand.
Shiv: Shiv is a crappy damage ability. It's designed to not do good damage and cost way to much energy. The only reason you want to use it is to apply a specific poison (usually crippling in pvp or to stack wound in pvp as well). While technically, a slow OH mean a more powerful Shiv, it also means a much more costly Shiv (meaning you actually get worse damage per energy). So you want a fast OH to minimize the cost of Shiv.
The math for the cost of Shiv is 20 + (Weapon Speed X 10).
1.3 Weapon = 33 energy
2.1 weapon = 51 energy!
The one exception to this rule are Mutilate Rogues. Mutilate Rogues want a dagger with a high damage range (i.e. Slow) for their OH.
MrTalos wrote:
I guess the other question that I would have is, is there a post or guide that you can point me to that sort of breaks down the true benefits of agility. When is it better to actually get the weapon that has less damage but has a little bit of agility. It's easy on hunter because I don't use my melee weapons much so I go with whatever has the most agility to help my ranged attacks but with rogue I am not sure how much +agi something needs to have to offset lower damage. I know that question can be a thread of it's own so that was why I was asking if someone can point me to a guide (or if there is even one) but I can create a new thread if that is what is suggested.
For game mechanics like stats, etc I use wowwiki; www.wowwiki.com:
Quote:
Agility
* Increases Armor Class by 2 for every point of AGI.
* Increases the chance of a critical hit with melee and ranged attacks. The amount of the increase is dependent on both class and level. For most level 60 character classes, approximately 20 points of AGI will increase your critical hit chance by approximately 1%. Rogues require 29 AGI for an additional 1% critical hit chance, and Hunters require 33 AGI (With patch 2.0) for an additional 1% critical hit chance, but both of these classes also gain attack power from agility and the items available to them typically have much higher amounts of AGI.
* Increases the chance to dodge an attack. The amount increased is dependent on both class and level. For most level 60 character classes, approximately 20 points of AGI will increase your chance to dodge by approximately 1%. Rogues only require 14.5 AGI for an additional 1% dodge chance. Hunters require 26.5 AGI for an additional 1% dodge chance, but Hunters typically have a high amount of agility, as well as an Aspect spell that further increases their chance to dodge attacks.
Attack Power (AP) increases your base damage by 1 for every 14 attack power. For example, an AP of 28 will give you 2 Dmg. To convert attack power into weapon damage: [Weapon dmg+attack power/ 14] / Weapon speed.
Each point of strength increases melee attack power by 2, except for rogues and hunters who gain 1 AP per point of strength, and 1 per point of agility. Druids in cat form also gain 1 AP per point of agility. Heart of the Wild gives a druid in cat form a 10% increase in AP.
Players also receive 1 point of ranged attack power (RAP) per point of agility. Thus, 1 AP = 1 Ranged Attack Power (RAP). However, the +28AP from Death's Embrace Head & Leg ZG enchant does not count as RAP.
* Increases Armor Class by 2 for every point of AGI.
* Increases the chance of a critical hit with melee and ranged attacks. The amount of the increase is dependent on both class and level. For most level 60 character classes, approximately 20 points of AGI will increase your critical hit chance by approximately 1%. Rogues require 29 AGI for an additional 1% critical hit chance, and Hunters require 33 AGI (With patch 2.0) for an additional 1% critical hit chance, but both of these classes also gain attack power from agility and the items available to them typically have much higher amounts of AGI.
* Increases the chance to dodge an attack. The amount increased is dependent on both class and level. For most level 60 character classes, approximately 20 points of AGI will increase your chance to dodge by approximately 1%. Rogues only require 14.5 AGI for an additional 1% dodge chance. Hunters require 26.5 AGI for an additional 1% dodge chance, but Hunters typically have a high amount of agility, as well as an Aspect spell that further increases their chance to dodge attacks.
Attack Power (AP) increases your base damage by 1 for every 14 attack power. For example, an AP of 28 will give you 2 Dmg. To convert attack power into weapon damage: [Weapon dmg+attack power/ 14] / Weapon speed.
Each point of strength increases melee attack power by 2, except for rogues and hunters who gain 1 AP per point of strength, and 1 per point of agility. Druids in cat form also gain 1 AP per point of agility. Heart of the Wild gives a druid in cat form a 10% increase in AP.
Players also receive 1 point of ranged attack power (RAP) per point of agility. Thus, 1 AP = 1 Ranged Attack Power (RAP). However, the +28AP from Death's Embrace Head & Leg ZG enchant does not count as RAP.
You can quickly search for any stats or game mechanics with the search box. It's user-driven but a lot of info is obtained directly from Blizzard or from dedicated players who test things out. Some things are estimated based on player testing but the information is usually very acurate.
You can also find quests, items, lore, etc. Basically anything at all to do with the game can be found.
The question of stats on weapons for melee is the dmg trade-off for the benefits of the stats. On non-melee like hunters and casters the dmg doesn't matter because the stats will add more since they shouldn't be using the weapon to melee.
When looking at upgrades of similar stats I ask myself if the reduction or loss of one stat worth the increase or gain of another. For example on my rogue I started working towards AP and +hit. As a result my crit is lower than it should be but my AP and +hit are pretty good as far as where my rogue is progression-wise. Lately while looking at upgrades I'm focusing a little more on crit and less on hit and ap. I'll take a little loss in +hit and/or ap to increase my crit. If my hit was low and my crit was high I'd drop my crit for +hit.
Looking at stats and how they affect things is great. However it can be time-consuming to do during the game. If you're in a group or raid and a bop item drops you don't want to compete with another rogue if it's not really an upgrade for you. Sometimes it's quickly obvious just by looking at them. Sometimes it's harder to do the math and can take a while to figure out how much of an upgrade it really is. This is where I recomend an add-on called ratebuster. What this does is break down stats into their benefits. This shows up in the item window. So I can directly see how much dmg/dodge/crit is being obtained from an item with agility. It shows you the loss/gain differences between that item and what you currently have equipped. It is customizable for different toons. This means on my warrior it'll show me things like defense/dodge/parry. On my rogue it'll show crit/dmg. On my healer it'll show healing/spell dmg/spell crit. It won't show me stats that a tank would look for if I'm on my priest and vice versa. Things can be turned off and on for class or even individual toons.
Very useful to see differences between items and quickly decide if it's worth the upgrade or not. I recommend it.
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Yeah, you want a fast Off-hand.
I ended up with Fighter Broadsword of the Monkey MH and Cross Dagger of Agility OH. I am level 26 and can't say I have been pleased with the selection of weapons on the AH. It pretty much was either junk or weapons that were really, really nice but were way, way outside of my price range.
MentalFrog wrote:
When looking at upgrades of similar stats I ask myself if the reduction or loss of one stat worth the increase or gain of another. For example on my rogue I started working towards AP and +hit. As a result my crit is lower than it should be but my AP and +hit are pretty good as far as where my rogue is progression-wise. Lately while looking at upgrades I'm focusing a little more on crit and less on hit and ap. I'll take a little loss in +hit and/or ap to increase my crit. If my hit was low and my crit was high I'd drop my crit for +hit.
Sounds like I will only really be able to learn it through trial and error. At present, I am not familiar enough with how much of an impact certain stats really have. I will use the site and addon you suggest to see what they do but I guess I won't really be able to decide until I try it out.
MentalFrog wrote:
Looking at stats and how they affect things is great. However it can be time-consuming to do during the game. If you're in a group or raid and a bop item drops you don't want to compete with another rogue if it's not really an upgrade for you. Sometimes it's quickly obvious just by looking at them. Sometimes it's harder to do the math and can take a while to figure out how much of an upgrade it really is. This is where I recomend an add-on called ratebuster. What this does is break down stats into their benefits. This shows up in the item window. So I can directly see how much dmg/dodge/crit is being obtained from an item with agility. It shows you the loss/gain differences between that item and what you currently have equipped. It is customizable for different toons. This means on my warrior it'll show me things like defense/dodge/parry. On my rogue it'll show crit/dmg. On my healer it'll show healing/spell dmg/spell crit. It won't show me stats that a tank would look for if I'm on my priest and vice versa. Things can be turned off and on for class or even individual toons.
Very useful to see differences between items and quickly decide if it's worth the upgrade or not. I recommend it.
Very useful to see differences between items and quickly decide if it's worth the upgrade or not. I recommend it.
I think I have this addon. I downloaded some addons a player was using, their exact setup didn't work well for me but I did end up getting many of the addons they were using and I think that was one of them.
Thanks again for the responses.
MrTalos wrote:
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Yeah, you want a fast Off-hand.
I ended up with Fighter Broadsword of the Monkey MH and Cross Dagger of Agility OH. I am level 26 and can't say I have been pleased with the selection of weapons on the AH. It pretty much was either junk or weapons that were really, really nice but were way, way outside of my price range.
What spec and lvl are you? Link your armory or give us your name and server.
MentalFrog wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Yeah, you want a fast Off-hand.
I ended up with Fighter Broadsword of the Monkey MH and Cross Dagger of Agility OH. I am level 26 and can't say I have been pleased with the selection of weapons on the AH. It pretty much was either junk or weapons that were really, really nice but were way, way outside of my price range.
What spec and lvl are you? Link your armory or give us your name and server.
I'm not to hardcore about this character. I know there are lots of instances I can do to get some good gear but am mostly playing around with him right now.
Spronny
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 3:48pm by MrTalos
MrTalos wrote:
MentalFrog wrote:
MrTalos wrote:
Warchief Tyrandor wrote:
Yeah, you want a fast Off-hand.
I ended up with Fighter Broadsword of the Monkey MH and Cross Dagger of Agility OH. I am level 26 and can't say I have been pleased with the selection of weapons on the AH. It pretty much was either junk or weapons that were really, really nice but were way, way outside of my price range.
What spec and lvl are you? Link your armory or give us your name and server.
I'm not to hardcore about this character. I know there are lots of instances I can do to get some good gear but am mostly playing around with him right now.
Spronny
Edited, Jan 25th 2008 3:48pm by MrTalos
Sorry I must have missed the part where you said you was only 26. I was going to say if you're sword specced you should have a sword in both hands. At this point it's not a big deal though. Carry on.
Hahaha Ooops. 
Edited, Apr 28th 2008 2:12pm by MentalFrog
Edited, Apr 28th 2008 2:12pm by MentalFrog
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