I'm in a casual guild that is just starting Kara. There are a few experienced members who have raided and who know the fights but for the most part, it is new territory for us as a guild. We are taking things slow and learning to work as a team though since it not a static group, the members change from visit to visit. The guild has about a half dozen keyed tanks but is short on healers so there won't be any splitting into two Kara groups anytime soon so I will be working with different OTs from visit to visit. I might even be going as OT with another guild on occasion to learn the other boss fights and see how an experienced guild does it.
I am the MT in my guild runs but since I've only been in Kara twice now, I am not very experienced with working with another tank in the group. The first time we did Kara, I didn't have any issues with the way the OT was playing but last night I found myself getting irritated at the OT (different person from before) for taunting trash mobs off me when we weren't tanking separate targets. I haven't said anything yet but plan on talking tonight with the guild leader about the run and am not sure whether to mention it or not since I'm really not sure what most OTs do in situations where they aren't really needed to tank.
I want to know if there is an established etiquette on tanking trash when there is more than one tank in the group. Obviously mobs marked for a tank should be held by that tank (barring problems) but what about the CC mobs when it is time to take them down? On my first Kara visit, I did all the CC breaking and the OT only took aggro if I needed him to (bad debuff or MT healer mana issues) but last night the OT was breaking CC and taunting mobs off me after I took aggro lead on them. Should I just keep my mouth shut as long as people aren't dying or should I lay down 'guidelines' for anyone who OTs with me? I don't want to come off as a 'difficult' primadonna tank who has to have everything a certain way but I just think it will make things smoother down the road if we establish a regular method of doing things.
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Kara - OT & MT questionsFollow
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I want to know if there is an established etiquette on tanking trash when there is more than one tank in the group.
There's nothing wrong with a bit of friendly competition on threat (makes you better having a challenge), however... Taunting is cheating.
Not to mention the healers see the skull, thinking healing will be on the MT.... accidents may happen if the OT healer thinks it's going to be a easy pull, and afk for 1 sec to get a drink.... seen it happen, and I debated not Taunting the mob back
. Just make sure everyone knows the mobs are Skull (MT) and X (OT). The better geared tank, should be tanking all single pulls, and 1/2 of the double pulls. Better gear = less healing = faster run.
My suggestion is whisper to him. Don't say it in raid chat, that'll just **** him off.
Thanks Gyfford. Everything is marked and when 'skull' and 'x' are both being tanked there is no issue. The issue is when there is no 'x' because of CC or after 'skull' and 'x' are dead and I'm starting to break the CC to take those down. I like having some rage to work with especially if I'm looking to break casting or stun the mob and it's really hard for me to generate rage in my tanking gear while not getting hit (and I suspect that he's taunting to get hit to get rage himself.)
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of CC or after 'skull' and 'x' are dead and I'm starting to break the CC to take those down.
You said you're still fairly new at the whole Kara thing? I'm assuming most of the guild are the same way?
Well what I'm getting at is, with practice it'll get easier. Right now I'm pretty sure there's chaos every now and then.
Here's an example. At the very beginning to Attunment/Nightmare. There's 1 single, then like 3 or 4 double... then the 4 mob pull (then a 5).
On the 4 man, say you have one shackle. You mark a horse for the shackle, maybe the other horse for a freeze trap (but they're very unreliable), one human ghost with skull, the other human ghost with X.
After skull is downed, the MT should pick up (if freeze trapped... that one ASAP), or the next CC'd mob. Vent helps out a lot, when my mob is dead, I hop on there and say "I'm going over to Star or Moon or w/e the mark is. That tells our OT his is the other one I did not mention.
Also, that should already be covered when the person marks the mobs. Take that extra minute and go over who's doing what on that. "MT on skull, OT on X, MT grabs star, then OT takes moon... any questions?" It takes 1 minute to say that, and there's zero % confusion.
Maybe this OT is trying to prove himself? Maybe he's not aware he's not supposed to do that (old habbit type deal).
Again I'd suggest whispering to him that skull is yours, and so on. As many times as our guild has run Kara, they still go over it. Boring.. yes, but some people sometimes say "oh, I did not know that part", it also helps us remember stuff.
If the whisper don't work, talk to a officer after. Tell him that you can't tank with him as OT and see if they'll match you up with that other OT from now on. Might work?
Using Gyf's example of the 4 pull... let's say it's marked like this:
Skull: MT's target, first kill
X: OT's target, second kill
Star and Square: CC (doesn't matter what, as most hunters can keep their mob CCed without too much trouble - that or I've run into a lot of good hunters :))
What I'd do, is after the Skull is dead I'll move over to X and just white hit it to get some rage and give the healers a break. When the mob is going to be dead in 5-10 seconds, I'll move over to one of the CCs (which depends on which one is closer, which is more likely to go FUBAR (such as the person who was CCing it has died, which happens every now and then), which dies quickest, etc.) and start building threat on it and sundering it up.
Once X dies, the DPS should move over to my target, and the OT should basically do what I did, or just go straight to building threat on the last mob.
Most of the time, the OT taunting it off of you is just a pain, because it'll make your TPS drop (unless the two of you know how to altarnate tanking so you can skyrocket your TPS :P That takes practice, though) and puts more stress than neccessary on the healers.
On single-mob pulls, whoever's not supposed to be tanking (depending on what kind of mob it is and what class the OT is, I've had them start MTing certain parts)should just DPS (or if they want, and they're a pally, heal for the pull).
Skull: MT's target, first kill
X: OT's target, second kill
Star and Square: CC (doesn't matter what, as most hunters can keep their mob CCed without too much trouble - that or I've run into a lot of good hunters :))
What I'd do, is after the Skull is dead I'll move over to X and just white hit it to get some rage and give the healers a break. When the mob is going to be dead in 5-10 seconds, I'll move over to one of the CCs (which depends on which one is closer, which is more likely to go FUBAR (such as the person who was CCing it has died, which happens every now and then), which dies quickest, etc.) and start building threat on it and sundering it up.
Once X dies, the DPS should move over to my target, and the OT should basically do what I did, or just go straight to building threat on the last mob.
Most of the time, the OT taunting it off of you is just a pain, because it'll make your TPS drop (unless the two of you know how to altarnate tanking so you can skyrocket your TPS :P That takes practice, though) and puts more stress than neccessary on the healers.
On single-mob pulls, whoever's not supposed to be tanking (depending on what kind of mob it is and what class the OT is, I've had them start MTing certain parts)should just DPS (or if they want, and they're a pally, heal for the pull).
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What I'd do, is after the Skull is dead I'll move over to X and just white hit it to get some rage and give the healers a break.
That's why I run over to the next tanked mob... to give the DPS that freedom to open the fight with their best abilites, instead of holding back a bit like they did on the skull.
Either way works fine. Generally we can clear the whole stables out, then drink right before Attunment/Nightmare. I just prefer getting the lead on threat before the zerg of guildies hitting my mob.
Oh and another thing about single mob pulls.
Example, the back entrance of Kara. The stairway full of single hard hitting ghosts. I always, always, always tell the OT that he can change to DPS gear until we get to the top of the steps (we just got two new Warrior tanks in the guild, so just giving the the FYI), that way there's zero chance that they'll be taunting the mobs XD
We're saying the same thing, Gyf. :P The only reason that I go to the OT's mob is to build threat and give the healers a brief break. I definitely like to build a pile of threat on the next mob before the DPS gets there, though. Not that it's needed all that much... for whatever reason, I'm usually good at burst threat, and so on trash most of my DPS can't catch me, assuming I don't get a string of dodges, parries and misses... which has made for a bad Nightbane pick before, haha. Ever seen 2 shield slams and 6 devastates in a row not hit a mob? It's brutal :P
I'm going to suggest to the guild leader that I start moving onto the CC mobs while the group is still on 'x'. It should speed up trash clearing and give me time to build up some good threat before the dps is all over it. The exception being mobs that have nasty habits that need to be either totally out of play or burned down super quickly as freeing them 'early' could be bad. Once I get to know the mob types better, I can make those decisions and will be more confident about telling other members of the party what to do as well.
The OT from last night is a relatively new 70 and is very eager and a bit over-zealous (so I'm told). I only ran with him once before when he wasn't yet 70 and was using a non-prot build (and yet still running with a shield). I wish I could have been there for Attumen but the run wasn't planned ahead of time so I wasn't on when they started. I joined in later on trash practice because I need the rep and the practice. We were clearing to that quest book that is up near Maiden.
Hopefully on Friday we can take down Moroes and maybe try Maiden too if Moroes doesn't take all night. I wouldn't mind taking a stab at Opera too depending on which fight it is.
The OT from last night is a relatively new 70 and is very eager and a bit over-zealous (so I'm told). I only ran with him once before when he wasn't yet 70 and was using a non-prot build (and yet still running with a shield). I wish I could have been there for Attumen but the run wasn't planned ahead of time so I wasn't on when they started. I joined in later on trash practice because I need the rep and the practice. We were clearing to that quest book that is up near Maiden.
Hopefully on Friday we can take down Moroes and maybe try Maiden too if Moroes doesn't take all night. I wouldn't mind taking a stab at Opera too depending on which fight it is.
42 posts
Aslong as one of the tanks are getting hit and not the rest of the party... Whats the problem?
I dont see it as main tank/off tank.. I see it as 2 tanks >.>
Im always the "off tank" as druid and i fit the role as far as im concerned... With a warrior main tank..
In a 4 man pull, ill end up picking up three mobs and let the warrior work off me stacking sunder and whatever else yall do..
If he is taunting off you, yeah its a bit stupid on his part.. But let him have his fun, you know who the real tank is, right? ;)
Not to insult and or flame.. But to me it just sounds like your QQ becuase your not the one getting a repair bill >.> (sarcasm)
The way ive always seen it is if the mobs die and me and the other tank are the only ones being beat on.. Job well done.
I dont see it as main tank/off tank.. I see it as 2 tanks >.>
Im always the "off tank" as druid and i fit the role as far as im concerned... With a warrior main tank..
In a 4 man pull, ill end up picking up three mobs and let the warrior work off me stacking sunder and whatever else yall do..
If he is taunting off you, yeah its a bit stupid on his part.. But let him have his fun, you know who the real tank is, right? ;)
Not to insult and or flame.. But to me it just sounds like your QQ becuase your not the one getting a repair bill >.> (sarcasm)
The way ive always seen it is if the mobs die and me and the other tank are the only ones being beat on.. Job well done.
It's a rage generation issue. Getting hit is the best way to generate the rage needed to do what I'm expected to do. I mainly was looking for experienced tanks to tell me how they deal with working in a multi-tank environment when the OT isn't 'needed' in a tanking capacity. I'm pretty new to this situation and knowing what others do is a big help in knowing how to deal with it myself.
The two tanks need to work as a team and that's how it seems to work with the other two OTs I've run with so far. It might be that the one OT makes it feel more like a competition rather than a cooperative effort. Competition may be 'fun' in some situations but not when I feel it is detrimental to the team as a whole. We're not geared enough nor experienced enough to breeze through this stuff so we need to rely on everyone in the party to work together.
Anyways, my guild not only got Moroes down last Friday but took out Maiden and Big Bad Wolf which surpassed all expectations. With all that success, we were enthused enough to go back Saturday and down Curator followed by a long trek through trash mobs to the Chess Event for some free epics. This is great progress for a guild with very few experienced raiders and lots of fresh 70s in mostly blue (some greens and purples) gear.
My guild leader likes the idea of speeding up trash pulls by starting in on one CC mob while the previous is still being worked on but I need to get more familiar with the mobs first so I know which ones are safe to pop early and which need to be 'active' for as little time as possible because of their abilities. We'll see how things go if and when I work with this other OT again.
The two tanks need to work as a team and that's how it seems to work with the other two OTs I've run with so far. It might be that the one OT makes it feel more like a competition rather than a cooperative effort. Competition may be 'fun' in some situations but not when I feel it is detrimental to the team as a whole. We're not geared enough nor experienced enough to breeze through this stuff so we need to rely on everyone in the party to work together.
Anyways, my guild not only got Moroes down last Friday but took out Maiden and Big Bad Wolf which surpassed all expectations. With all that success, we were enthused enough to go back Saturday and down Curator followed by a long trek through trash mobs to the Chess Event for some free epics. This is great progress for a guild with very few experienced raiders and lots of fresh 70s in mostly blue (some greens and purples) gear.
My guild leader likes the idea of speeding up trash pulls by starting in on one CC mob while the previous is still being worked on but I need to get more familiar with the mobs first so I know which ones are safe to pop early and which need to be 'active' for as little time as possible because of their abilities. We'll see how things go if and when I work with this other OT again.
It's not a matter of QQ Cattie. It's a matter of knowing and understanding group dynamics. The offtank is there for just that reason: tanking things that the main tank CAN'T tank. It's important to group dynamics that each person in a raid is aware of their role, and an offtank that is grabbing things from the main tank when he doesn't need to be is ONLY causing problems for the raid. Taunting mobs running after people is one thing. Grabbing threat on a mob that is being tanked is entirely another, and it's an attitude that has always irritated me in OTs. Grabbing threat from the MT doesn't make you a better tank, it makes you stupid. You weren't supposed to be taking damage, and now you are. It deserves the same reaction as DPS that pulls agro.
I've been OT as a guest for friends on raids quite a few times in the past, and I don't try and surpass the MT on threat, even when I can. So what if I'm normally MT with my guild? It's my job to OT for that period of time, and that's what I do. I'm ready to tank if needed, but if I don't need to, I shouldn't be taking damage.
Morghast, I'd just talk to him next time. You're correct in your thinking. It's nothing to go nuts over, but just talk to the problematic OT next time. You should be the only one breaking CC, like you said. The OTs job on pulls like that are to tank whatever mob he was assigned, and then assume the norm. Once he's done tanking his mob, he hits whatever you decide to hit, and nothing else.
I've been OT as a guest for friends on raids quite a few times in the past, and I don't try and surpass the MT on threat, even when I can. So what if I'm normally MT with my guild? It's my job to OT for that period of time, and that's what I do. I'm ready to tank if needed, but if I don't need to, I shouldn't be taking damage.
Morghast, I'd just talk to him next time. You're correct in your thinking. It's nothing to go nuts over, but just talk to the problematic OT next time. You should be the only one breaking CC, like you said. The OTs job on pulls like that are to tank whatever mob he was assigned, and then assume the norm. Once he's done tanking his mob, he hits whatever you decide to hit, and nothing else.
42 posts
Yes i get that fletus.. Ive been doing my share of tanking/dps/haling in kara for months now..
My point was simply this.. He is talking about fighting ONE mob.. and the OT is taunting off him, yes i get that its plain out stupid for this to be happening.
But at the same time, its one trash mob.. Who cares?
Yes if the MT was tanking 2 things and the off tank tanking two things and he is trying to taunt off the MT, needs to be told his place...
But over ONE mob, whats the point of making it an issue? Get the damn thing dead and move on.
My point was simply this.. He is talking about fighting ONE mob.. and the OT is taunting off him, yes i get that its plain out stupid for this to be happening.
But at the same time, its one trash mob.. Who cares?
Yes if the MT was tanking 2 things and the off tank tanking two things and he is trying to taunt off the MT, needs to be told his place...
But over ONE mob, whats the point of making it an issue? Get the damn thing dead and move on.
42 posts
Sorry, but yeah agreed... There is no reason for the OT to be taking damage when there is only one mob to be killed.
I simply go cat and help dps the thing.. I dont bother tanking anthing unless needed.. More dps the better.
I just heard a QQ he is tanking and im not when i first read the post
I simply go cat and help dps the thing.. I dont bother tanking anthing unless needed.. More dps the better.
I just heard a QQ he is tanking and im not when i first read the post
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But at the same time, its one trash mob.. Who cares?
I don't think it was the trash part he was really worried about too much. It's the tanking <X mob here> from the Main tank. If that does not get squashed fast, this Off Tank will continue to do that... and on some fights (Prince), if the Main Tank gets the debuff, kiss that chance at beating him buh-bye.
Main tanks are always better geared, taking less damage, making a pretty long raid, shorter...by saving healing mana. (IMO at least). That OT just did not like being the OT, and wanted some action (which in Kara being a OT you get plenty of action as is).
Even now, I never mind OT'ing. I'm 1, 2,3?? Mabye the #3 tank in our Guild, I'm more than happy to OT bearboss, I actually MT'd the Eagle boss (our 1st run at him), we 2 shotted him... 1st was to get a understanding of how it worked (explaining on Vent, and seeing it are 2 different things) XD Being a OT is not a bad thing to me, some it might be tho.
It depends on the mob too as having the OT get one of those Ushers from the Opera area off of me is great because it means that we are one and two on the threat list so when one of us gets frozen, the mob stays off the dps people. It's good for boss fights like Moroes as well where having a OT that's not pulling his weight can mean a fast wipe.
Once we get better geared as a guild, we may get to the point where we have some people who spec to OT rather than right now where all the tanks are prot Warriors in the guild and all are used to being the single tank in the group. I'm the MT mainly because my gear is a little better, I've been tanking for the guild a little longer and I'm considered to be the most reliable tank as far as being online and willing to help out with stuff goes. It would be lovely to have a Druid to OT and go Kitty for DPS but the only 70 Druid in the guild is never online so he wouldn't be likely to get a spot anyways (as spots go to members who are more active, who help others and who make efforts to gear up in heroics).
The OT I was working with on Saturday was terrific. He could keep up with me on threat where needed, would pick up mobs that needed picking up and generally cooperated in taking turns picking up the CC mobs. We just seemed to work well together without anyone having to really say anything.
Once we get better geared as a guild, we may get to the point where we have some people who spec to OT rather than right now where all the tanks are prot Warriors in the guild and all are used to being the single tank in the group. I'm the MT mainly because my gear is a little better, I've been tanking for the guild a little longer and I'm considered to be the most reliable tank as far as being online and willing to help out with stuff goes. It would be lovely to have a Druid to OT and go Kitty for DPS but the only 70 Druid in the guild is never online so he wouldn't be likely to get a spot anyways (as spots go to members who are more active, who help others and who make efforts to gear up in heroics).
The OT I was working with on Saturday was terrific. He could keep up with me on threat where needed, would pick up mobs that needed picking up and generally cooperated in taking turns picking up the CC mobs. We just seemed to work well together without anyone having to really say anything.
X and Triangle are our 2 MT/OT targets. Bigwigs usually uses Skull to auto-mark raid members who get hit with Holy Fires and other dots so we tend not to use it.
Usually we kill the OT target first since they are usually geared lower than the MT and getting the mobs off them ASAP is our top priority. Next to MT target, then the MT continues tanking the CC mobs and the OT duel wields and drops out of Def. Stance. If needed the OT pops his Shield/Def. macro to pic up a mob that breaks CC.
Usually we kill the OT target first since they are usually geared lower than the MT and getting the mobs off them ASAP is our top priority. Next to MT target, then the MT continues tanking the CC mobs and the OT duel wields and drops out of Def. Stance. If needed the OT pops his Shield/Def. macro to pic up a mob that breaks CC.
Scolariman - I think your setup for MT and OT sounds great. Sometimes I think the Warriors in my guild (including myself) should go work with an established guild now and then to learn how to actually play as an OT and as a MT with an OT.
I think part of my problem is that I am a little slow on initial threat generation. I can mitigate damage very well and I can get through heroics with undergeared healers without much trouble. I just need a bit longer period to establish threat before the dps can start in which isn't a problem in five-man groups. If I lose threat it can be hard for me to regain it because I need rage to make threat and if I'm not getting hit, I'm not generating much rage.
The other Warrior in question is very fast at generating high threat but his mitigation isn't as good and healers have to work a bit harder to keep him up (thus generating heal-aggro).
The thing is, with his ability to generate fast threat and my high mitigation, we ought to be able to work out a way to cooperate to take advantage of our strengths without resorting to an all out threat-generation war. I'm just not sure how to present it to him as he doesn't seem to understand how a MT/OT pairing should work. The other good tanks I have worked with seem to understand how to pair up and work together.
I think part of my problem is that I am a little slow on initial threat generation. I can mitigate damage very well and I can get through heroics with undergeared healers without much trouble. I just need a bit longer period to establish threat before the dps can start in which isn't a problem in five-man groups. If I lose threat it can be hard for me to regain it because I need rage to make threat and if I'm not getting hit, I'm not generating much rage.
The other Warrior in question is very fast at generating high threat but his mitigation isn't as good and healers have to work a bit harder to keep him up (thus generating heal-aggro).
The thing is, with his ability to generate fast threat and my high mitigation, we ought to be able to work out a way to cooperate to take advantage of our strengths without resorting to an all out threat-generation war. I'm just not sure how to present it to him as he doesn't seem to understand how a MT/OT pairing should work. The other good tanks I have worked with seem to understand how to pair up and work together.
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Usually we kill the OT target first since they are usually geared lower than the MT and getting the mobs off them ASAP is our top priority
Here's the only way I can put it:
MT tanking:
-Parry
-600 damage taken
-Dodge
-Parry
-600 damage taken
OT tanking (lesser geared)
-750 damage taken
-Dodge
-750 damage taken
-600 (150 blocked) damage taken
-700 damage taken
Again I might be wrong, but only taking 1200 damage Vs the 2800 is helping keep aggro better, kind of helping hold that inital burst threat a bit better? I know in FFXI the mechanics were the more damage you take, the lower the threat on the mob would be. Is WoW like that? I have not paid attention to threat vs getting damage, but makes sense.
Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 3:14pm by GYFFORD
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Again I might be wrong, but only taking 1200 damage Vs the 2800 is helping keep aggro better
I guess that's the reason we kill the OT target first. More DMG on him increases the Mana needed by the healers. MT has plenty of time to build agro even with the dodge/parry while they are burning down the OT target. Only the MT should be hitting his target for x amount of time at the beginning. If everyone has Salv. on them from a Pally they shouldn't be able to catch up to the MT's agro.
Everyone should have Omen installed to monitor threat so they should never "steal" agro from the tanks. If they get too close they need to back down or agro wipe (Feign Death, Ice Block..etc..).
Both methods sound like they work just fine so see what works for your group and go with it.
Edited, Jan 23rd 2008 3:27pm by Scolariman
You taking damage has no effect on your threat on the mob, directly. However, having TOO HIGH of an avoidance can lead to problems with threat generation at times, and cause you to maintain a lower threat roof than is needed.
Oh, something kind of funny happened tonight. I was tanking kara for some friends in another guild. After about 15 minutes, we were discussing the fact that while they were not pulling agro, they noticed that they were having a MUCH more difficult time than usual when running with me, and I didn't seem to be putting out nearly as much threat as normal. My TPS seemed really low to me as well, in the realm of 500. I couldn't figure out what the problem was.
It was at this point that I saw Salv among my buffs, with about 15 minutes gone from the timer. I hadn't thought to even look for it, considering I was the ONLY warrior in the raid. I didn't assume the pally would put salv on the tank. Lol
Oh, something kind of funny happened tonight. I was tanking kara for some friends in another guild. After about 15 minutes, we were discussing the fact that while they were not pulling agro, they noticed that they were having a MUCH more difficult time than usual when running with me, and I didn't seem to be putting out nearly as much threat as normal. My TPS seemed really low to me as well, in the realm of 500. I couldn't figure out what the problem was.
It was at this point that I saw Salv among my buffs, with about 15 minutes gone from the timer. I hadn't thought to even look for it, considering I was the ONLY warrior in the raid. I didn't assume the pally would put salv on the tank. Lol
morghast wrote:
I'm in a casual guild that is just starting Kara. There are a few experienced members who have raided and who know the fights but for the most part, it is new territory for us as a guild. We are taking things slow and learning to work as a team though since it not a static group, the members change from visit to visit. The guild has about a half dozen keyed tanks but is short on healers so there won't be any splitting into two Kara groups anytime soon so I will be working with different OTs from visit to visit. I might even be going as OT with another guild on occasion to learn the other boss fights and see how an experienced guild does it.
I am the MT in my guild runs but since I've only been in Kara twice now, I am not very experienced with working with another tank in the group. The first time we did Kara, I didn't have any issues with the way the OT was playing but last night I found myself getting irritated at the OT (different person from before) for taunting trash mobs off me when we weren't tanking separate targets. I haven't said anything yet but plan on talking tonight with the guild leader about the run and am not sure whether to mention it or not since I'm really not sure what most OTs do in situations where they aren't really needed to tank.
I want to know if there is an established etiquette on tanking trash when there is more than one tank in the group. Obviously mobs marked for a tank should be held by that tank (barring problems) but what about the CC mobs when it is time to take them down? On my first Kara visit, I did all the CC breaking and the OT only took aggro if I needed him to (bad debuff or MT healer mana issues) but last night the OT was breaking CC and taunting mobs off me after I took aggro lead on them. Should I just keep my mouth shut as long as people aren't dying or should I lay down 'guidelines' for anyone who OTs with me? I don't want to come off as a 'difficult' primadonna tank who has to have everything a certain way but I just think it will make things smoother down the road if we establish a regular method of doing things.
I am the MT in my guild runs but since I've only been in Kara twice now, I am not very experienced with working with another tank in the group. The first time we did Kara, I didn't have any issues with the way the OT was playing but last night I found myself getting irritated at the OT (different person from before) for taunting trash mobs off me when we weren't tanking separate targets. I haven't said anything yet but plan on talking tonight with the guild leader about the run and am not sure whether to mention it or not since I'm really not sure what most OTs do in situations where they aren't really needed to tank.
I want to know if there is an established etiquette on tanking trash when there is more than one tank in the group. Obviously mobs marked for a tank should be held by that tank (barring problems) but what about the CC mobs when it is time to take them down? On my first Kara visit, I did all the CC breaking and the OT only took aggro if I needed him to (bad debuff or MT healer mana issues) but last night the OT was breaking CC and taunting mobs off me after I took aggro lead on them. Should I just keep my mouth shut as long as people aren't dying or should I lay down 'guidelines' for anyone who OTs with me? I don't want to come off as a 'difficult' primadonna tank who has to have everything a certain way but I just think it will make things smoother down the road if we establish a regular method of doing things.
I have offtanked and maintanked.
Your offtank should be a dps warrior or a feral druid. It should not be a prot warrior or a paladin of any sort.
On trash pulls, the offtank should dps. This is why a paladin should not be offtank: in situations where they do not tank, they are useless.
The offtank's job is largely to make it so extra mobs don't destroy healers / dps and also to make sure a boss that does something funky like Moroes doesn't wipe the group when aggro is lost on the MT (his gouge, for instance).
In summation, your offtank was not playing correctly, and should not be offtanking.
morghast wrote:
the point where we have some people who spec to OT rather than right now where all the tanks are prot Warriors in the guild and all are used to being the single tank in the group.
Just have someone spec to Offtank. I offtanked Karazhan in a 33 / 28 / 0 spec and did fine. You don't need prot talents unless you are main tanking. And for fights like Shade of Aran and Prince, the lack of dps will be a liability.
Lorimath wrote:
morghast wrote:
the point where we have some people who spec to OT rather than right now where all the tanks are prot Warriors in the guild and all are used to being the single tank in the group.
Just have someone spec to Offtank. I offtanked Karazhan in a 33 / 28 / 0 spec and did fine. You don't need prot talents unless you are main tanking. And for fights like Shade of Aran and Prince, the lack of dps will be a liability.
Yes, that would be ideal. The guild is pretty casual and there's always been an understanding that no one would be forced into a particular spec. It seems almost weird to me that just about every Warrior in the guild (with the exception of myself) leveled as DPS and suddenly went prot upon reaching 70. I think that once we figure out who the best tanks are, we might suggest that some of the others are free to go DPS without fear of losing the chance to raid.
Our guild make-up is a bit screwy with almost no Druids, Pallys or Shammys. One of our Mages transfered in a Druid alt from another server but I think he's going to go Healer since we are short on Healers. We have a few people who are trying to level Pallys and Druids simply to have some more variety (and to reduce the number of sharded epics every week).
Quote:
On trash pulls, the offtank should dps. This is why a paladin should not be offtank: in situations where they do not tank, they are useless
I think "useless" is kindda harsh for Kara. We use 2 Prot Warriors for my group. Yes, DPS could be better on Prince if he was Fury, but then what's to say picking up skeles on Nightbane will not kill him, or Off Tanking the red beam for Netherspite won't kill him, or even those little crawly mobs after chess, before Prince won't kill him... they STILL hit me like trucks, and I only have to get 3 badges for wrist armor, and my king's defender.. then it's all for Kara gear.
So if you use two tanks, you can make it pretty easy.
Let me guess tho "But a DPS warrior will still get tanking gear from kara", well yes, but a Prot Warrior will still get DPS gear from kara too. I crit Shade like crazy when I change up to DPS gear, and I've yet to really get much except for ring/neck/poison trinket from Romulo.
Now granted a Feral Druid = greatest OT ever, because if they bring DPS gear and tanking gear they can fill both spots.... but no a instant wipe if you don't have one.
I'd NEVER turn down a Prot Warrior who wants to be in my group. Because: 1)any Plate stuff we get he can have, and 2)having a prot warrior as backup tank is not a instant loss.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 11:51am by GYFFORD
Should the off-tanking Warrior keep above 490 def at all times or is that only necessary when he's actually needed to tank?
morghast wrote:
Should the off-tanking Warrior keep above 490 def at all times or is that only necessary when he's actually needed to tank?
For shade I do use all DPS gear, right down to the DW'ing. Only because there's no threat table, he's all over the place.
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