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I always wondered what does that mean...+6 stat enchant to chest. I know that the stam/int get a +6 boost, however if the garment has +26 to magic spell damage, dose the damage also get raised? I am tryiong to figure out what would be the best chest enchant for an affliction lock in end game raiding.
not its just +6 to all your attributes.
+6 to stats is the best raiding chest enchant you can get IMO.
6MP/5 is about 1 shadow bolt per boss fight. Better than 60 HP and 90 mana, imo
Basically for warlocks the different options are +6 stats, +150 health, 6mp5.
+150 health - more health, more health to life tap, more survivability against aoe boss fights, otherwise useless (if you have good healers don't bother with this)
6mp5 - as Loki said, it's about one shadowbolt per boss fight (I have not done the math, I am trusting Loki's judgement). Other than that, it does pretty much nothing. Maybe one less lifetap over an extended period of time (i.e. 5+ minutes)
+6 stats - +6 to strength, agility, intellect, stamina, and spirit. Str/agi means nothing for a warlock. +6 int = 90 mana and a small increase to spell crit. +6 stam = 60 health. +6 spi = nothing unless you have improved spirit (the priest buff), which comes out to about 2 more spell damage. This also is increased by Blessing of Kings, which means +6 stats becomes +6.6 stats. This is (imo) THE best raiding enchant possible, as mp5 is useless for warlocks and +150 health is useless for raiding period for warlocks.
To the OP - it means +6 strength, +6 agility, +6 stamina, +6 intellect, and +6 spirit. That is it. Any other bonuses gained from +6 stats are a result of the increase in the previous stats mentioned (i.e. spell crit increase from the intellect increase).
+150 health - more health, more health to life tap, more survivability against aoe boss fights, otherwise useless (if you have good healers don't bother with this)
6mp5 - as Loki said, it's about one shadowbolt per boss fight (I have not done the math, I am trusting Loki's judgement). Other than that, it does pretty much nothing. Maybe one less lifetap over an extended period of time (i.e. 5+ minutes)
+6 stats - +6 to strength, agility, intellect, stamina, and spirit. Str/agi means nothing for a warlock. +6 int = 90 mana and a small increase to spell crit. +6 stam = 60 health. +6 spi = nothing unless you have improved spirit (the priest buff), which comes out to about 2 more spell damage. This also is increased by Blessing of Kings, which means +6 stats becomes +6.6 stats. This is (imo) THE best raiding enchant possible, as mp5 is useless for warlocks and +150 health is useless for raiding period for warlocks.
To the OP - it means +6 strength, +6 agility, +6 stamina, +6 intellect, and +6 spirit. That is it. Any other bonuses gained from +6 stats are a result of the increase in the previous stats mentioned (i.e. spell crit increase from the intellect increase).
Assuming you're into any kind of raiding with 1k+ spell power in raids, 2 spell power from spirit is 2 damage per spell. To equal the effect of a shadow bolt, assuming an average coefficient of 100% (i.e. no SnF, really) you need roughly 700 spells to get there. i.e. you would have to be pumping out spells, on the global cooldown, for 17.5 straight minutes.
6 int equates to .09% crit rating at 60, it scales down at 70 to being about .07%, if I remember correctly and 90 mana, not even enough to reapply a curse, which means it saves you 0 lifetapping.
6 stam equates to 60 HP. while this may be the margin of victory on some fights, if you're consistantly coming out with 60HP or less from a fight, I have to wonder how. Even on a 6000 HP pool, this is representative of a 1% increase, which is neither enough for a life tap, nor enough to give you a reasonable expectation to survive one form of damage but have died without it. Also, since the previous 2 stats were a waste of mats, even +150 HP would be a better choice.
+6 MP/5 however, provides you with enough MP to Shadow Bolt every 5.8 minutes. This will come up in EVERY boss fight at least once, some 2 times. This is 1-2 free shadow bolts, essentially. Nothing else offers that.
Someone explain to me how the 1400-2200 (crit) shadow bolts pale in comparison to a few wasted stats.
6 int equates to .09% crit rating at 60, it scales down at 70 to being about .07%, if I remember correctly and 90 mana, not even enough to reapply a curse, which means it saves you 0 lifetapping.
6 stam equates to 60 HP. while this may be the margin of victory on some fights, if you're consistantly coming out with 60HP or less from a fight, I have to wonder how. Even on a 6000 HP pool, this is representative of a 1% increase, which is neither enough for a life tap, nor enough to give you a reasonable expectation to survive one form of damage but have died without it. Also, since the previous 2 stats were a waste of mats, even +150 HP would be a better choice.
+6 MP/5 however, provides you with enough MP to Shadow Bolt every 5.8 minutes. This will come up in EVERY boss fight at least once, some 2 times. This is 1-2 free shadow bolts, essentially. Nothing else offers that.
Someone explain to me how the 1400-2200 (crit) shadow bolts pale in comparison to a few wasted stats.
Those marginal increases, while they seem miniscule, do add up. The 60 health and 90 mana is that much more you have to use. It may not seem alot, and even percentage-wise it might be less than 1%, but it is still MORE. That is all that matters. The 2 more spell power is still 2 more spell power, and the 0.7% crit is still 0.7% crit. Why would anyone reject that? If you look at each individual enchant, it doesn't seem like alot, but it adds up.
By the way, if your fights are lasting 5.8 minutes, sometimes even 11.6, maybe you should look at getting better dps. Granted, I haven't seen past reliquary in BT, but I have never been in a fight lasting more than 9 minutes. Trash fights take between 3.5 minutes and 5 minutes for my guild, progression fights are... well, attempts. Even those don't last more than 6 minutes. Kills are about 8.
In 5.8 minutes, you will have cast 348 shadowbolts. You can pick one of them being free, or getting 2 more spellpower per cast. Let's assume you are destruction and have 1000 shadow damage. This means your shadowbolts hit for 1657.1 damage, without any other debuff active. With 2 more spellpower, this increases to 1659.2142 damage per cast. Multiplied by 348, that is 368606.5 damage over 5.8 minutes. Without the 2 extra damage, you have 367870.8 damage over 5.8 minutes. Deciding between the two enchants, WITHOUT any other bonuses besides the 2 extra spell power, you are deciding between one free shadowbolt or 935.7 more damage.
Assuming you have 25% crit, 1/4 of your 348 shadowbolts will crit, making 87 shadowbolts crit. With +6 stats, your crit will go up 0.7%, making 25.7% of 348 shadowbolts crit, which is 89.436 shadowbolts. Now we are talking about one free shadowbolt or 935.7 more damage + the extra 2.436 crits + the extra shadow vulnerability debuffs. Personally, I would take +6 stats.
Yes, I'm not including life taps, but in 5.8 minutes, 6mp5 would be 417.6 more mana, which isn't even enough for a rank 1 life tap, let alone max rank. So essentially you aren't wasting any global cooldowns by not going for 6mp5.
Again, with kings, the results of +6 stats are also increased, whereas 6mp5 is not.
Edited, Jan 17th 2008 10:58pm by Miscelaneous
By the way, if your fights are lasting 5.8 minutes, sometimes even 11.6, maybe you should look at getting better dps. Granted, I haven't seen past reliquary in BT, but I have never been in a fight lasting more than 9 minutes. Trash fights take between 3.5 minutes and 5 minutes for my guild, progression fights are... well, attempts. Even those don't last more than 6 minutes. Kills are about 8.
In 5.8 minutes, you will have cast 348 shadowbolts. You can pick one of them being free, or getting 2 more spellpower per cast. Let's assume you are destruction and have 1000 shadow damage. This means your shadowbolts hit for 1657.1 damage, without any other debuff active. With 2 more spellpower, this increases to 1659.2142 damage per cast. Multiplied by 348, that is 368606.5 damage over 5.8 minutes. Without the 2 extra damage, you have 367870.8 damage over 5.8 minutes. Deciding between the two enchants, WITHOUT any other bonuses besides the 2 extra spell power, you are deciding between one free shadowbolt or 935.7 more damage.
Assuming you have 25% crit, 1/4 of your 348 shadowbolts will crit, making 87 shadowbolts crit. With +6 stats, your crit will go up 0.7%, making 25.7% of 348 shadowbolts crit, which is 89.436 shadowbolts. Now we are talking about one free shadowbolt or 935.7 more damage + the extra 2.436 crits + the extra shadow vulnerability debuffs. Personally, I would take +6 stats.
Yes, I'm not including life taps, but in 5.8 minutes, 6mp5 would be 417.6 more mana, which isn't even enough for a rank 1 life tap, let alone max rank. So essentially you aren't wasting any global cooldowns by not going for 6mp5.
Again, with kings, the results of +6 stats are also increased, whereas 6mp5 is not.
Edited, Jan 17th 2008 10:58pm by Miscelaneous
WOAH! Look at all that faulty math! It's not .7 crit, misc. It's .07 crit. In other words, you will get 1 more crit sometime in the realm of "never".
What you're comparing is 935 more damage to the free SB, which is 1657 damage. 90 MP on your max is useless because you will almost never go back to max MP and because you won't be enchanting INT on ANY OTHER slots, the difference won't be compounded in any way. It's like having 1 piece of spell crit gear or 1 piece of spell haste gear. While it may technically be a stat upgrade, without actually compounding it, it's too small to be worthwhile. If you were getting INT to bracers and weapon, then you could make an argument that it was creating a significant difference. But for as long as +6 int remains the only enchanting differential in that field, it's useless.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, Blizzard doesn't round stats, they drop decimals. Thus the benefit from getting +6 stats is NOT compounded by BoK. 10% of 6 is .6 and that is going to be dropped, not added on, making the entire BoK argument fallacious.
Your argument from Life Tap is also pretty myopic. You Life Tap because you don't have enough mana to cast the next spell in your rotation or to restart it. The MP5 isn't to replace the tap, it's to delay it. 417 mana is enough to continue that rotation slightly longer (1 spellcast) without life tapping. The contribution here is minimal at best, 1 spellcast, but it's 1 more cast you get out before you blow your global cooldowns on lifetapping back your mana. None of the stats in the +6 enchant can offer that.
What you're comparing is 935 more damage to the free SB, which is 1657 damage. 90 MP on your max is useless because you will almost never go back to max MP and because you won't be enchanting INT on ANY OTHER slots, the difference won't be compounded in any way. It's like having 1 piece of spell crit gear or 1 piece of spell haste gear. While it may technically be a stat upgrade, without actually compounding it, it's too small to be worthwhile. If you were getting INT to bracers and weapon, then you could make an argument that it was creating a significant difference. But for as long as +6 int remains the only enchanting differential in that field, it's useless.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, Blizzard doesn't round stats, they drop decimals. Thus the benefit from getting +6 stats is NOT compounded by BoK. 10% of 6 is .6 and that is going to be dropped, not added on, making the entire BoK argument fallacious.
Your argument from Life Tap is also pretty myopic. You Life Tap because you don't have enough mana to cast the next spell in your rotation or to restart it. The MP5 isn't to replace the tap, it's to delay it. 417 mana is enough to continue that rotation slightly longer (1 spellcast) without life tapping. The contribution here is minimal at best, 1 spellcast, but it's 1 more cast you get out before you blow your global cooldowns on lifetapping back your mana. None of the stats in the +6 enchant can offer that.
both are valid arguements, but mp5 isn't a needed stat for warlocks. get yourself a large enough mana pool and you'll only be life tapping during the moments when you're running around from boss abilities (about 8-9k before buffs is where this can start happening) also the arguement of "it's only 60hp and 90 mana more" is the same as saying "it's only an extra 4 spell damage upgrade", the fact is it's still an upgrade and an extra 4 from across each armour piece adds up. 'tis the same with enchants, but after putting the chest, legs and feet enchants together you can end up with a nice stamina increase.
rmemeber, warlocks are unique. we're the only caster that doesn't require mp5 and 99% of the time. going for staight stats is a better choice. if you want mp5. then:
Spriest
blessing of wisdom
judgement of wisdom
elixir of major mageblood
shaman
sac felhound
all these together cover everything we need, heck sac'd felhound covers almost everything on its own (it provides more mana/min than darkpact and with no GCD requirements, 'tis actually incredably useful), add BoW and either a Spriest or the elixir and you can actually get away with lifetapping maybe 3-4 times in an entire boss fight, though it's hard to decide when it's better to use sac'd pup over sac'd succy.
can't be ***** to do the maths, but i'll provide the info for anyone who wants to ^^
avg lifetap frequency to sustain dps over a 6min boss fight is about once every 13 seconds
so if that extra GCD time for casting another SB manages to make up for a 15% damage loss then it can be worth it (personnaly I doubt it would.. but on some bosses mana regen > damage like the one in HJ or BT (i forget where) that drains your mana and you need to stay above 2-3k)
rmemeber, warlocks are unique. we're the only caster that doesn't require mp5 and 99% of the time. going for staight stats is a better choice. if you want mp5. then:
Spriest
blessing of wisdom
judgement of wisdom
elixir of major mageblood
shaman
sac felhound
all these together cover everything we need, heck sac'd felhound covers almost everything on its own (it provides more mana/min than darkpact and with no GCD requirements, 'tis actually incredably useful), add BoW and either a Spriest or the elixir and you can actually get away with lifetapping maybe 3-4 times in an entire boss fight, though it's hard to decide when it's better to use sac'd pup over sac'd succy.
can't be ***** to do the maths, but i'll provide the info for anyone who wants to ^^
avg lifetap frequency to sustain dps over a 6min boss fight is about once every 13 seconds
so if that extra GCD time for casting another SB manages to make up for a 15% damage loss then it can be worth it (personnaly I doubt it would.. but on some bosses mana regen > damage like the one in HJ or BT (i forget where) that drains your mana and you need to stay above 2-3k)
Quote:
also the arguement of "it's only 60hp and 90 mana more" is the same as saying "it's only an extra 4 spell damage upgrade", the fact is it's still an upgrade and an extra 4 from across each armour piece adds up.
You're right about the fact that it's stacking additions, but only the stam is stacking. The int and spirit aren't being compounded by enchantments on other pieces. That is why it's ONLY a 90 mana upgrade and why the upgrade is insignificant. The 2 damage, also, does not compound quickly enough to compare to the Shadow Bolt itself. All it takes is a quick look at the numbers Misc put up. The 2 damage represents higher damage per shadow bolt, but it would take almost 12 minutes for it to represent the damage of a single one.
Not that Loki's math is wrong or his opinion is invalid but the sole fact that warlocks have either Dark Pact or Life tap or BOTH make any mp/5 enchants pointless. And honestly id LOL IRL if i saw a raiding lock runing around with MP/5 stuff...lol.
During a 6 minute fight (a shorter boss fight), A +6 lock will accumulate an extra 92 damage with 20% Crit, without factoring the time it takes to tap. The mp5 lock will get a free SB, which is an average of 572 Damage and subject to all of the Warlocks +Damage and Crit.
Considering neither enchant makes much of a difference for trash mobs, the extra damage compared to the saved mana of the healer over time far outweighs the +6 stats.
Mp5 may not be a major stat for a lock, but they do need some. Otherwise, they are nothing but a drain on the healers, unless they use their mana to replenish their health pool (and 90 mana isn't enough to do that).
I would far prefer that then to +2 Damage per 3 seconds.
Considering neither enchant makes much of a difference for trash mobs, the extra damage compared to the saved mana of the healer over time far outweighs the +6 stats.
Mp5 may not be a major stat for a lock, but they do need some. Otherwise, they are nothing but a drain on the healers, unless they use their mana to replenish their health pool (and 90 mana isn't enough to do that).
I would far prefer that then to +2 Damage per 3 seconds.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
For the mp5 to be of any use you'll have to play so that you'd go oom at the end of the fight with time to cast one more bolt, but now you have the mana for it.
But how often does that happen? You will have to life tap anyway far before you get that extra shadow bolt from regen, and chances are that you actually life tap a few times while you're at it or tap when you move.
So all that the +mp5 enchant would mean is that you have a tad more mana at the end of the figth, which in fact means that you don't get anything out of the enchant at all.
I doubt that it would do you much good when figting Kaz'rogal.
We just life tap.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 2:42am by pompa
But how often does that happen? You will have to life tap anyway far before you get that extra shadow bolt from regen, and chances are that you actually life tap a few times while you're at it or tap when you move.
So all that the +mp5 enchant would mean is that you have a tad more mana at the end of the figth, which in fact means that you don't get anything out of the enchant at all.
Jenovaomega wrote:
but on some bosses mana regen > damage like the one in HJ or BT (i forget where) that drains your mana and you need to stay above 2-3k)
I doubt that it would do you much good when figting Kaz'rogal.
We just life tap.
Edited, Jan 24th 2008 2:42am by pompa
I think the real difference comes from the comparison between the placement of taps. The real difference comes from the difference in times you have to tap. The change isn't much either way, but it is there. Plus, if you are specced into talents that give instant bolts, this effectively gives you a free one. All the +6 could do is give you 2 extra damage.
When considering the trash mobs and overall raid dps, the 6 to stats is better. But with the focus to bosses, I would prefer the mp5.
For farming I would probably take the Mp5 as well, as I don't think normal mobs would be overly inclined to notice the effects of 2 damage.
When considering the trash mobs and overall raid dps, the 6 to stats is better. But with the focus to bosses, I would prefer the mp5.
For farming I would probably take the Mp5 as well, as I don't think normal mobs would be overly inclined to notice the effects of 2 damage.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Sorry I haven't checked this thread in a couple days, but yes I admit I made some types and bad math. It would be 0.07% more crit, which added to the 25% comes out to 25.07% and 87.2436 shadowbolt crits.
Yes, the +6stats alone may seem like it is getting dropped, but it is added to what you ALREADY have, which means it can make you get the extra stat. Also, you ARE getting int to your bracer, your weapon, generally every piece of gear you have. Just because it isn't enchanted with +int does not mean you aren't getting the int. So yes, it is stacked with other +int.
The one extra shadowbolt also requires the extra 2.5 seconds to cast, whereas the one lifetap (as well as the other lifetaps you do) get you more mana (at the cost of more health) because you have the more spellpower. It is minimal, but it is still an increase. I honestly don't feel like doing the math, and I know that it won't add up to 417, but the chances of getting low enough for just one shadowbolt at the very end of the fight is EXTREMELY small. Personally I lifetap or dark pact every time I get to 3k mana or below, because there is always the chance of something affecting your spellpower that you will want to burn it (i.e. bloodlust) without wasting time lifetapping or dark pacting, or that you need to burn the boss as it is low on health and the tank dies, so it is up to the dps to burn the last percent or two of the boss. Waiting that long to dark pact or lifetap when that happens means you are wasting precious time which could be spent killing the boss.
One thing I have noticed is the focus on the extra shadowbolt. Yes, it is free, but it also requires an extra 2.5 seconds to cast it, where the extra damage does not require the extra seconds to gain the damage, except it MIGHT need the extra 1.5 seconds for the lifetap, which will gain you more than one shadowbolt with the extra mana.
Quote:
Also, in case you haven't noticed, Blizzard doesn't round stats, they drop decimals. Thus the benefit from getting +6 stats is NOT compounded by BoK. 10% of 6 is .6 and that is going to be dropped, not added on, making the entire BoK argument fallacious.
Yes, the +6stats alone may seem like it is getting dropped, but it is added to what you ALREADY have, which means it can make you get the extra stat. Also, you ARE getting int to your bracer, your weapon, generally every piece of gear you have. Just because it isn't enchanted with +int does not mean you aren't getting the int. So yes, it is stacked with other +int.
The one extra shadowbolt also requires the extra 2.5 seconds to cast, whereas the one lifetap (as well as the other lifetaps you do) get you more mana (at the cost of more health) because you have the more spellpower. It is minimal, but it is still an increase. I honestly don't feel like doing the math, and I know that it won't add up to 417, but the chances of getting low enough for just one shadowbolt at the very end of the fight is EXTREMELY small. Personally I lifetap or dark pact every time I get to 3k mana or below, because there is always the chance of something affecting your spellpower that you will want to burn it (i.e. bloodlust) without wasting time lifetapping or dark pacting, or that you need to burn the boss as it is low on health and the tank dies, so it is up to the dps to burn the last percent or two of the boss. Waiting that long to dark pact or lifetap when that happens means you are wasting precious time which could be spent killing the boss.
One thing I have noticed is the focus on the extra shadowbolt. Yes, it is free, but it also requires an extra 2.5 seconds to cast it, where the extra damage does not require the extra seconds to gain the damage, except it MIGHT need the extra 1.5 seconds for the lifetap, which will gain you more than one shadowbolt with the extra mana.
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