Shadowstep PvE?Follow

You don't have to use daggers with a shadowstep build build, any weapon will do. (just don't take any talents that rely on dagger based attacks like imp ambush and such) However, you're going to miss out on any weapon specialization talents within the combat tree (other than daggers) if you choose to do so.

As for the burst damage capabilities of ShS... I honestly wouldn't know since I haven't played with it too much

Sorry but you're wrong. Its a proven fact that Combat Swords does more DPS than any other build for PvE.

A. Neither of you are 70, so you really can't talk.
B. Sure cite examples where you did more DPS, unless you had identical/equivalent gear to the other player, and have the exact same skill as the other player then it doesn't mean jack sh*t.
C.Trying to do the best DPS you can, I.E trying to play to the best of your ability is not being a follower.

If you want to do ShS for fun, feel free, but it will not do the same DPS as Combat Swords.

No, ShS does not suck nearly as bad as it used to, thats because it been getting buffed over the past few patches.

Combat Swords is still better. This is not my personal opinion, this has been determined by many Rogues over the course of many tests and data collections.

So unless you can give complete statistical proof that ShS is better then Combat Swords please shut the @#%^ up.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, ShS is burst damage, not sustained. Thus it doesn't matter how high your crits are, you still aren't doing as much Damage over the course of a boss fight, or dungeon.

EDIT2: And to Speed, yes of course, anyone who plays as Combat Swords clearly has never played Rogue before. Check the Elitist Jerks forums, or even these forums and ask how many of the high level raiders play Combat Swords when they aren't experimenting for sh*ts and giggles.

EDIT3: Also, if you're gonna use that build it could be better, drop Remorseless attacks for Murder. Lose a point in initiative for Ghostly Strike.

Edited, Jan 14th 2008 5:31am by GodOfMoo

Edited, Jan 14th 2008 5:33am by GodOfMoo

Edited, Jan 14th 2008 6:05am by GodOfMoo

Stop thinking that being a "rebel" by speccing into a sub-par talent build makes you cool, original, unique, or special.


Have you?

This is about the point in your post where I really did start to laugh.


"This" rogue? Do you have other rogues? It's interesting that you wouldn't refer to your rogue as "your" rogue. I smell an eBayer (or a *********


Compared to Combat Swords, yes, it does.


Combat Swords gets all of those crit talents as well.


Yes, Initiative and Hemorrhage will yield better CP generation than Combat Swords. Now compare ShS to Mutilate. Game, set, match.


See above.


This is just about the only reason that any rogue should ever spec into ShS. For any other reason, there's a better build. This is also a huge problem in my eyes, that our "PvP" tree is laughable compared to any other spec, even in PvP. Nerfing Hemo and buffing ShS and Sinister Calling slightly won't make ShS any less of a "neat trick" that's easily ignored and painfully neglected.


/endpwn

to mahlerite:

thanks for being wrong. you don't even get improved dual wield with the spec that you suggested. there is no way that you are right. you are correct that one of the main problems with the shs build is hit (i myself suggested this and you RESUGGESTED this down below), it does not make up for lethality, etc...it is gimp! do you know how much extra hit rating is needed to make up for that 3%, do you know how much worse your combat cycles are going to be only taking 2/3 imp slice and dice? give up defending it.

also, you say it's a good 1v1 build. agreed, but this person is leveling up and shouldn't be concerned with this. all i can say is have fun with your inefficient spec, and enjoy being lower on the damage meter to someone who doesn't want to play a gimped out rogue...

and to any response you have, idc because i know in my heart of hearts that you are wrong.

Except he probably has more experience with deep Sub than you, I'll take his word over yours any day. ShS/Deep sub isn't that horrible of a spec if you can gear yourself properly for it, you'll never be as competitive as a Combat Swords Rogue, but you shouldn't be that far behind either. I am willing to guess around 100-150 DPS lost personally to somewhere around 50 DPS gained for the melee DPS. You probably make up more ground once the threshold for Dirty Deeds (I think thats the talent) is met.

And therion, so basically what you are implying that instead of doing more damage you want to do less damage because you feel or want to be a certain a spec other than Combat.

Edited, Jan 14th 2008 7:45pm by ElementHuman

No, we aren't saying he is stupid for doing ShS. It's his choice, and hell, I've thought of doing it too.

We are saying he is stupid for ignoring every piece of data that has been collected over the years that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Combat Swords=best DPS.

Also calling him stupid for the extremely sub-par quality of his post.

Actually if you read and follow the thread properly you can see how we got to this point, basically his questioned was answered right away, but he then did his little rant as a final reply in which certain wrong details were placed i.e. -

So I ask of you to read more than just the original post before you post yourself...

what the hell do i care if you take his word over mine for being deep sub. you're damn straight he has more experience than i do at that, i'm not a scrub. i'm not going to gimp myself and my raid and pick something that's only going to give me kicks and giggles.

edit:

and i like how in the end you sided with me anyway--thanks for arguing with me for the sake of nothing lol.

Edited, Jan 14th 2008 10:54pm by lessonsinlogic

I suppose its leftover from FFXI, but I find myself a little insulted when someone doesn't bring their best.

It doesn't matter if you are working your *** off, if you are using a spec that you know is not as good in groups as another. You are purposely gimping the group.

Now, going ShS instead of Combat swords won't fail the group, assuming you bring your A game. But you still aren't preforming to the best of your ability.

If he wants to level with it fine, but if he does any serious PvE at 70 he should go to swords.

Wait, so you felt things were too repetitive when you used the same four or five abilities a lot... And respecced to focus on using one ability over and over?

I don't get all bent around the stat sheets and all that mess, however, I can offer some insight from experience in both deep Combat and deep Subtlety. As far as ShS goes, I find it pretty useful in battlegrounds (basic honor farming) as well as straight up farming (rep, grinding, etc). The improved attack power, agility,and dirty deeds go a long way on heavy burst damage. Preparation helps a ton too when you take on one too many mobs and need an extra vanish or evasion. In all honesty, it really just makes those endeavors more "fun" if you will. As far as 5 mans and raiding goes, yea ShS is "ok" if you stack on tons of hit rating, but I did more consistent damage and missed less as Combat swords. In addition, you can replace some hit rating gems (from the boosted hit chance from precision) with others with stats you are lacking on. Precision, dual weapon spec., imp. slice and dice, AR, BF, etc.. are key components for keeping my dps up and continuous. In my personal opinion, I say just play whatever you think is fun; it is just a game afterall. However, if you have a certain goal you want to reach, its best to explore what other players have done and are doing that pertain to what you're looking to accomplish. If you want to have solid dps, I'd vouch for Combat swords. If you like having a bag of tricks with some nice burst damage, I'd say go for ShS. Both can be highly effective for different purposes, as long as you have the gear and stats (hit rating for dps) that are needed.

Lessinlogic? wrote:


Read a little closer next time, i wasn't supporting the build nor would i use it outside of kara or pvp, just pointing out what the latest spreadsheet #s say with my current gear.

I'll reiterate: the latest spreadsheet(at rogue.raidcal.com) indicates the difference between combat swords and an 11/9/41 step build is less than 2% with the same raid buffs. The hemo debuff is estimated at 125dps, the spreadsheet 'assumes a 1/7th uptime for one Rogue and that the raid crit rate is about 25%. Also, armor is taken into account.' With 420 extra dam possible from every hemo an extra 125dps seems very reasonable.

You also posed several questions:
-3% more hit is aprox 47 more hit rating. Hit rating is not as important for a step build as it doesn't rely on combat potency procs for energy.
-Lethality is crap dam(aprox an extra 2% more dam RAID BUFFED for any non crit build, ie non-dagger/fist) there are better places for 5 talent pts in a trispec or step build.
-Cycles would be 2s/5r with 2/3 in imp SnD with the 2pc t4 set bonus, without the t4, 3s/5r. Cycles are actually much easier with a hemo spec, as there aren't any 'suprises' in energy regen as the build has no combat potency.