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- K, time for a rant post.
K, time for a rant post.Follow
So what is it that blizzard has against shamans? We have no reliable aoes, no CC, no stuns, no bubbles, no defense. And our totems only affect people in our party as opposed to other classes buffs which affect everyone. And why can't we loot the bodies that our totems kill. Its still our creations. I realize that pets cause the same thing, but when we are farming, we can't kill mass numbers if we have to get a hit in. Anyway we can get Bliz to realize this? Lol, oh and on top of that, I'm missing 300 honor which would have gotten me my next piece of gear.
Soljourner wrote:
So what is it that blizzard has against shamans? We have no reliable aoes, no CC, no stuns, no bubbles, no defense. And our totems only affect people in our party as opposed to other classes buffs which affect everyone. And why can't we loot the bodies that our totems kill. Its still our creations. I realize that pets cause the same thing, but when we are farming, we can't kill mass numbers if we have to get a hit in. Anyway we can get Bliz to realize this? Lol, oh and on top of that, I'm missing 300 honor which would have gotten me my next piece of gear.
/patpat I'm guessing it's the last sentence that sparked the catharsis?
As to the rant, I have to agree with you, with minor points.
Earth Shield is a great bubble for shamans.
Shaman are the most defensive non-tank class, with mail armor and a shield.
It lacks defensive moves, however.
Totems affecting entire raids would be kinda imba in that totem buffs are the most potent buffs in the game, which is why they're limited in several ways.
I agree full-on with the totem killing looting thing.
Edited, Jan 13th 2008 1:27pm by Raglu
Yea, Earth shield is nice Raglu, but Earth shield is so easily taken away it's not even funny. Purge, that spell from priests, the spell from felhounds, arcane shot, the shield bash from prot warriors, and mass dispel can all take it away like that. /cry
And I wish they could make totems... harder to kill, unkillable, move with you, or something. And reduce the CD on the elemental totems for god's sake. We can't even use them in arena? BULLSH--, um, Tauren ****. Huntards, warlocks, mages, and priests can use their minions... why not us? A lot of classes got many spells 60-70 that revolutionized the class. For example, lifebloom, mass dispel, the jumping healing priest thingy (great description ain't it?), snake trap, yada yada yada yada yada! I'm not saying we didn't get great stuff, I mean I LOVE water shield (especially that 50 mp5 thing... I consider it overpowered as a resto shaman =P), wrath of air totem, bloodlust... but yet we get 2 20 MINUTE COOLDOWNS that are TOTEMS that CAN'T WALK WITH US and we CAN'T USE THEM IN ARENA! GAWD! >.<
sorry
/looks around nervously
Blizz is knocking at my door... gotta go, kkthxbai
And I wish they could make totems... harder to kill, unkillable, move with you, or something. And reduce the CD on the elemental totems for god's sake. We can't even use them in arena? BULLSH--, um, Tauren ****. Huntards, warlocks, mages, and priests can use their minions... why not us? A lot of classes got many spells 60-70 that revolutionized the class. For example, lifebloom, mass dispel, the jumping healing priest thingy (great description ain't it?), snake trap, yada yada yada yada yada! I'm not saying we didn't get great stuff, I mean I LOVE water shield (especially that 50 mp5 thing... I consider it overpowered as a resto shaman =P), wrath of air totem, bloodlust... but yet we get 2 20 MINUTE COOLDOWNS that are TOTEMS that CAN'T WALK WITH US and we CAN'T USE THEM IN ARENA! GAWD! >.<
sorry
/looks around nervously
Blizz is knocking at my door... gotta go, kkthxbai
Drakothh wrote:
Yea, Earth shield is nice Raglu, but Earth shield is so easily taken away it's not even funny. Purge, that spell from priests, the spell from felhounds, arcane shot, the shield bash from prot warriors, and mass dispel can all take it away like that. /cry
Youve also forgotten Spellsteal from mages :P Purge from other shamys
Yes Raglu that was the straw. As an elemental staman I dont have access to earth shield, but Water does it quite nicely. My question is, as an elemental how do you all fight the other classes. One on one duels, I can't beat a single class/build out there. I've got plenty of pvp exp, just that shocks take 6 seconds to charge and LB gets canceled/disrupted way too easily. The dmg we can do is insane as I'm almost always on top of AV charts. But let me hear your pvp tactics. What do you do when a toon takes notice of you and comes at ya. How do you stop them? What is easy and what is hard to take down.
All you can do as Elemental is Frost Shock/Earthbind kite, but when you're kiting you can't dps or heal, so the point is kinda moot. Elemental is awesome until someone notices you, basically.
GWynand wrote:
Elemental is awesome until someone notices you, basically.
QFT. There is really no better way to sum the build up than that.
Shaman really get the short end of the stick in a lot of places. We have no way to take an opponent out of the fight for any amount of time, we can't really kite anything other than another Shaman, we have no pushback resistance on our offensive spells (we need four pieces of arena armor to get a set bonus that most other casters can talent at tier one or two of their tree), we can't get a heal off uncontested without a 21-point talent, we're not mobile, we have very few ways to deal with incoming CC (the few we do have are quirky and unreliable), we have the least-effective snares in the game, arguably the worst interrupt in the game, and only three very ineffective ways to mitigate incoming damage (two of which are 41-point talents and dispellable; the last applies only to spell damage, and a single cast at that).
Now, you look at that list and tell me how a class with that resume is supposed to be able to hold its own in small-scale PvP. It's not a trick question: we can't. We as a class simply do not have the tools to compete in small-scale PvP. The only thing we bring offensively is our damage, and that's simply not enough however high it may be. The only thing we have to fall back on defensively is our armor. Again... simply not enough.
Yep, you've been in my position haven't you? I always though rogues got shafted. Even when blizzard came out with a statement stating that they know somethings wrong with rogues, but man, I think shamans are even more screwed. Like you said, we shine until we are noticed. Chances of bliz doing anything bout it?
And even Frost Shock/Ebind totem dont work most of the time. Wars just charge through,pallies bubble or use their escape blessing. Rogues just vanish/sprint through. Only shamans are really capable of being kited. Its extremely agrivating as I love to play my shaman but can't do squat in small scale pvp. The most annoying part is our lightning bolt is our bread and butter but at 1.5 sec cast, it gets distrupted/canceled before it gets off. And shocks recharge at 6 seconds. What can we do?
Also, why dont we have a buff talent? I mean, we have 5% to mana. But at the avg of 8k, thats only 400 mana. Hunters can get up to what? 21% hp? Rogues 15% agi, mages 15% int. As a shaman, theres a thousand answers that could come up fluff wise that would help. How bout an air skill that charges us forward 30 yards. In effect like a blink or something just to get us out of the way.
Edited, Jan 14th 2008 3:11am by Soljourner
And even Frost Shock/Ebind totem dont work most of the time. Wars just charge through,pallies bubble or use their escape blessing. Rogues just vanish/sprint through. Only shamans are really capable of being kited. Its extremely agrivating as I love to play my shaman but can't do squat in small scale pvp. The most annoying part is our lightning bolt is our bread and butter but at 1.5 sec cast, it gets distrupted/canceled before it gets off. And shocks recharge at 6 seconds. What can we do?
Also, why dont we have a buff talent? I mean, we have 5% to mana. But at the avg of 8k, thats only 400 mana. Hunters can get up to what? 21% hp? Rogues 15% agi, mages 15% int. As a shaman, theres a thousand answers that could come up fluff wise that would help. How bout an air skill that charges us forward 30 yards. In effect like a blink or something just to get us out of the way.
Edited, Jan 14th 2008 3:11am by Soljourner
I still can't believe how ridiculous it is that Lightning Bolt has no pushback prevention yet it is a main nuke, and there's no root that a shaman has to pull away like a frost mage does (whose main nuke also has no pushback prevention).
Edited, Jan 15th 2008 11:09pm by Raglu
Edited, Jan 15th 2008 11:09pm by Raglu
So what all tactics do you shamans like to do in pvp? If any of you are elemental and are on runetotem, whisper me. Names Kelgor. I love to get pvp info and tactics.
My biggest gripe about the class is that everything is a nature spell. If I get nature cancelled out, I'm stuck trying to melee between frost shock cooldowns. No heals, no lightning bolts and no earth shocks.
As an Elem/Resto hybrid, my 60 shammy doesn't melee so well.
As an Elem/Resto hybrid, my 60 shammy doesn't melee so well.
I agree there. And i found another way Bliz gimped us. Why is it we cant use our elemental totems in arena? Every other class gets to use their uber lv 60 skills but we cant.
Easy answer for no totems in Arena...
Fire/Earth elemental Totem.
Fire/Earth elemental Totem.
Yeah elemental is good. Run away and kite until you have natures swift and frost shock kite. I find enhance works alot better, massive burst (not as much as ele), but run up and slughter 5 or so people then die, rinse and repeat. Note: works better with a healer.
As elemental I find alot of crappy people seeking me out for some reason. Such as huntards who melee with 5k health...if thats not asking to get 2 shotted I don't know what is. I don't arena much but in 2v2, duo ele shamans find some sucess. You just hit LB, chain lightning, frost shock, earth shock, and grounding totem. Open with elemental mastery, natures swift, chain lightning... IT WORKS!
Suicide builds work well too, not in arena tho as far as I know. But, I am thinking about grouping with a healadin for 2v2 as a suicide build. May work, might not, but we'll see.
As elemental I find alot of crappy people seeking me out for some reason. Such as huntards who melee with 5k health...if thats not asking to get 2 shotted I don't know what is. I don't arena much but in 2v2, duo ele shamans find some sucess. You just hit LB, chain lightning, frost shock, earth shock, and grounding totem. Open with elemental mastery, natures swift, chain lightning... IT WORKS!
Suicide builds work well too, not in arena tho as far as I know. But, I am thinking about grouping with a healadin for 2v2 as a suicide build. May work, might not, but we'll see.
Well, you can use any totem. Just not the ones that summon the Earth and Fire elemental. Wtf? why not? locks and hunters get theirs. So we lose two of our high lv skills.
Edited, Jan 16th 2008 9:09pm by Soljourner
Edited, Jan 16th 2008 9:09pm by Soljourner
Soljourner wrote:
Well, you can use any totem. Just not the ones that summon the Earth and Fire elemental. Wtf? why not? locks and hunters get theirs. So we lose two of our high lv skills.
Edited, Jan 16th 2008 9:09pm by Soljourner
Edited, Jan 16th 2008 9:09pm by Soljourner
The Elemental totems add an extra POWERFUL member to your team for the duration.
Hunters pretty much have to rely on their pets during most of the arenas(which they have to spec into BM for the pet to be of any use), and the only pet a warlock gets that could match up to a fire or earth elemental is the felguard, and they have to gimp the rest of their spells in order to get a felguard.
Shaman's can have their excellent healing, caster dps or melee dps specs and still summon out this powerful ally.
That's why they aren't allowed in arenas.
But as well, all the other classes get their. Mages and priests get their spell pets. And the fire elemental doesn't have that many hp and can be banished.
The mages pets are specced. and the ice spec is "nerfed" as each spell individually doesnt do as much dmg as the fire or arcane (with same amount of spell dmg)
Lock spells are nerfed by talent choices, in order to get the "big fella", and well, They are locks. what more can you say?
Hunters pets = half their package, not just 1 ability.
Dont really have a good reason for priests to get to keep their pets tho, I hate them!
I do agree tho, that shammies are pretty gimp in arenas.
Lock spells are nerfed by talent choices, in order to get the "big fella", and well, They are locks. what more can you say?
Hunters pets = half their package, not just 1 ability.
Dont really have a good reason for priests to get to keep their pets tho, I hate them!
I do agree tho, that shammies are pretty gimp in arenas.
Never the less, even if they are "nerfed", they still have the ability to use. We lose two of our few high end talents. And for reasons stated above, they are not that powerful. A standardly spec'd melee/ranged class can two shot a fire elemental and a lock can banish them. Can be kited by a mage. Nothing fancy. I dont care what bliz says, there is absolutely no reason at all.
Gaudion wrote:
we have very few ways to deal with incoming CC (the few we do have are quirky and unreliable), we have the least-effective snares in the game, arguably the worst interrupt in the game, and only three very ineffective ways to mitigate incoming damage (two of which are 41-point talents and dispellable; the last applies only to spell damage, and a single cast at that).
Sounds like my Warlock in many ways.
The only way to deal with incoming CC as a Warlock is to blow Death Coil and it doesn't last forever, plus it can be dispelled with the trinket.
You have the least-effective snare in the game? Hah, I think not. Imagine your only snare being a 21-point talent in Elemental. And imagine you had to get another talent to really make it decent. And even then most classes can dispel it with a trinket and put your entire snare system on a 3-minute cooldown.
You don't have the worst interrupt in the game either. You push a button and the opponent is interrupted. Pretty straightforward. For my Warlock to interrupt someone (without using Death Coil) she first has to summon the right minion and then use its Spell Lock ability. Unless you've put some points into the Demonology tree, you need 10 seconds to summon the Felhunter. So unless the guy is charging a very slow Pyroblast, you're screwed.
We have two ways to mitigate incoming damage: Sacrificing our Voidwalker (also takes 10 seconds to summon, by the way) and Soul Link which is a 31-point talent. Oh, we do have a Shadow Ward, though. Absorbs shadow damage.
I'm not saying Warlocks are underpowered, not at all. Just putting things in perspective. You only remember the negative things, the things you want changed. You forget that when you get brutally wtfraped by another class, that class just did something out of the ordinary, unless it's the Rogue class.
Rogues just aren't fun anymore, what, with their ability to stun, snare, dispel debuffs, go stealth in combat (all bugs aside). As a Shaman and Warlock I pretty much just give up against them. Can't heal, can't cast anything that isn't instant and once they start with the Kidney Shots, I'm just a ragdoll.
Fun times.
I do agree that the Shaman class needs a reliable stun (a la Hammer of Justice).
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#21REDACTED,
Posted: Jan 19 2008 at 11:02 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The only deal that hurts warlocks is how they reduce their dmg taken. But hey, their annoying fears and armor spells help, and how much health they have. So still, it's not a big deal for 'locks. Shamans, however, need some help. People make fun of others for QQing, but Blizzard is just a company of people. People make mistakes. People overlook things. Blizzard isn't C h u c k N o r r i s. So stop expecting them to be him. THere are overpowered and underpowered aspects in the game. People need to realize that.
Alright, calm down biggons. Just a discussion. Locks have another interupt. It runs parralel with their stun. Felguards can charge and stun/interupt. They can also attack which slows down casting. We have neither. Like he said though, e-shock cancels a spell sure, but it only stops them from casting in that school for 2 seconds while e-shock has a 6 sec (5 with 5 talent points, thats right, one whole second for 5 talent points). Also along with the fact that it only has a 20 yard range. Shamans have a tendancy to get kited alot. Even when we get close, we get feared. You at least have breathing room even if your forced to fear early and like he said, you can dot, dot, dot and have some dmg on them before they come back. We cannot stop them from getting into us at all. They will make contact.
We have the least effective snare in the game cause we dont have one. Both that we sort of have only slow you down and both can be dispelled. The one has a 6 second timer and the other only pulses every 3 or 4 seconds. I've seen some people run through it and not get touched.
We have 1 way to mitigate dmg. And thats a 41 point resto talent called earth shield. Thats it.
One big thing locks have is their pet, they can use it to slow down opps casting. Thats what the felhunter is for, or the succubuss as she attacks fast. In the time it takes for me to cast my main form of DMG (2 secs) you can get off what? 3 or 4 spells. And thats not including what your pet is doing to keep me from casting. We only have 1 way around that. And that takes a 20 point resto talent called Natures swiftness. 3 min. timer.
A huge weakness we have though is lack of HP. Yes, I realize that there are elemental shamans with 11or 12k hp, but they are in t6. Elemental need to take spell crit as we rely on them. My 70 shaman has 3 of the s1 glads gear and a number of SL, TK gear and only has 7.8k hp and 8.6k mana.
Personally I'd like to see this skill implemented as it would solve 90% of our problems. Tell me what you think.
Astral Projection, instant cast. 100-200 mana. Lasts 5 seconds. 5 Min cooldown with possible 2 talent points to reduce it to 3.5 min.
The shaman "leaves" his body and enters the spirit world like you do when your dead. You can either have the 25% speed buff or not, you can see everyone, but they can't see you. You cannot cast, attack or interact at all with anything. This removes all snares and movement debuffs. Possibly all debuffs. Breaks combat.
Basically its vanish that only lasts for 5 seconds. Its rogues sprint with talents. Its a longer distance than mages blink but at the same time takes longer to recharge. And lastly it fits as shamans are all bout the spirits and elements.
Edited, Jan 20th 2008 4:16am by Soljourner
We have the least effective snare in the game cause we dont have one. Both that we sort of have only slow you down and both can be dispelled. The one has a 6 second timer and the other only pulses every 3 or 4 seconds. I've seen some people run through it and not get touched.
We have 1 way to mitigate dmg. And thats a 41 point resto talent called earth shield. Thats it.
One big thing locks have is their pet, they can use it to slow down opps casting. Thats what the felhunter is for, or the succubuss as she attacks fast. In the time it takes for me to cast my main form of DMG (2 secs) you can get off what? 3 or 4 spells. And thats not including what your pet is doing to keep me from casting. We only have 1 way around that. And that takes a 20 point resto talent called Natures swiftness. 3 min. timer.
A huge weakness we have though is lack of HP. Yes, I realize that there are elemental shamans with 11or 12k hp, but they are in t6. Elemental need to take spell crit as we rely on them. My 70 shaman has 3 of the s1 glads gear and a number of SL, TK gear and only has 7.8k hp and 8.6k mana.
Personally I'd like to see this skill implemented as it would solve 90% of our problems. Tell me what you think.
Astral Projection, instant cast. 100-200 mana. Lasts 5 seconds. 5 Min cooldown with possible 2 talent points to reduce it to 3.5 min.
The shaman "leaves" his body and enters the spirit world like you do when your dead. You can either have the 25% speed buff or not, you can see everyone, but they can't see you. You cannot cast, attack or interact at all with anything. This removes all snares and movement debuffs. Possibly all debuffs. Breaks combat.
Basically its vanish that only lasts for 5 seconds. Its rogues sprint with talents. Its a longer distance than mages blink but at the same time takes longer to recharge. And lastly it fits as shamans are all bout the spirits and elements.
Edited, Jan 20th 2008 4:16am by Soljourner
Mazra wrote:
Gaudion wrote:
we have very few ways to deal with incoming CC (the few we do have are quirky and unreliable), we have the least-effective snares in the game, arguably the worst interrupt in the game, and only three very ineffective ways to mitigate incoming damage (two of which are 41-point talents and dispellable; the last applies only to spell damage, and a single cast at that).
Sounds like my Warlock in many ways.
Did you... No... You didn't... Did you just compare Shaman to Warlocks in PvP? Am I hearing that right?
Quote:
The only way to deal with incoming CC as a Warlock is to blow Death Coil and it doesn't last forever, plus it can be dispelled with the trinket.
The difference here being the amount of time you can keep someone else CC'd while you beat the ever-lovin' crap out of them in return. Everyone else has to worry about your CC constantly, and you only need an opening to have a good run of it. Shaman get no such counter-punch. We don't give and then take, or take and then give. We just take and take and take until we die.
Quote:
You have the least-effective snare in the game? Hah, I think not. Imagine your only snare being a 21-point talent in Elemental. And imagine you had to get another talent to really make it decent. And even then most classes can dispel it with a trinket and put your entire snare system on a 3-minute cooldown.
Oh, boo hoo. I'm a Warlock and I have the most useful form of CC in the game, but I'm unhappy because I can't snare.
For all practical purposes, Shaman do have the worst snares. The only thing we are actually capable of kiting using both Earthbind Totem and Frost Shock is another Shaman.
Quote:
You don't have the worst interrupt in the game either. You push a button and the opponent is interrupted. Pretty straightforward. For my Warlock to interrupt someone (without using Death Coil) she first has to summon the right minion and then use its Spell Lock ability. Unless you've put some points into the Demonology tree, you need 10 seconds to summon the Felhunter. So unless the guy is charging a very slow Pyroblast, you're screwed.
That's why we don't pay Warlocks to think.
Earth Shock silences for two seconds after the interrupt. That means that after our GCD (1.5 seconds) we have .5 seconds to do whatever we please. You know what else we can cast in .5 seconds? I'll give you a hint: it starts with "n" and ends with "othing".
Furthermore, even when talented for reduced cooldown, we can only interrupt every other spell at best. Even if the Shaman does nothing but sit still and stare at its target waiting to interrupt, they are still going to get spells off. You can't kill Paladins when they're still getting FoL off, and even if you Earth Shock their Frost Bolts or Polymorphs, Mages will still rip you a new one.
Quote:
We have two ways to mitigate incoming damage: Sacrificing our Voidwalker (also takes 10 seconds to summon, by the way) and Soul Link which is a 31-point talent. Oh, we do have a Shadow Ward, though. Absorbs shadow damage.
Yeah, that constant 20% damage reduction must really suck in PvP, especially when you can Drain Life. The fact that Soul Link is a talent is moot; every 'Lock specs Demo and takes it for PvP. Plus there's all the time that people, you know, actually don't spend hitting you because you can LoS with your DoT's running, and the time they're running around feared.
You know how Shaman mitigate damage? We don't. Shamanistic Rage (41-point talent, two-minute cooldown) is dispellable, Earth Shield (41-point talent) is dispellable and completely neutered by Mortal Strike. Not taking damage isn't really an option; even if we could kite with our crap-tastic snares, both Elemental and Resto's primary spells have cast time. It's like a really sick inside joke.
Quote:
I'm not saying Warlocks are underpowered, not at all. Just putting things in perspective. You only remember the negative things, the things you want changed. You forget that when you get brutally wtfraped by another class, that class just did something out of the ordinary, unless it's the Rogue class.
And I'm not saying Warlocks are overpowered. Just putting things in perspective. You only imagine how the grass must be greener on the other side of the fence while secretly thinking to yourself, "It's not the class, that person just sucks at playing it. I could do better." You forget that you don't play a Shaman for a main, not wanting to be pigeonholed into Resto (which is, for the record, the worst of the four healers in PvP), and you haven't tried to make Elemental or Enhancement work for DPS in PvP, especially in 2v2 or 3v3 in the arena. You assume that when we get brutally wtfraped, we must have done something wrong, it couldn't possibly be the class' lack of tools or crappy mechanics.
Lylz, I love it when people get their panties in a bunch and start posting nonsense. So many replies, so little time to point them all out. Here we go...
Curse of Exhaustion. This is the only way to get it. Notice how I had to spend 21 points to get it. Not 21 wasted points, no, unless I by chance wanted to not be Affliction spec'd.
Oh, and last year called. They want their Chuck jokes back.
Awww, so cute and so clueless. PvP isn't all about the Arena, kid. And we blow a Soul Shard each time we change minion.
I'm not talking about how long Earth Shock silences your opponent. I was talking about how Earth Shock interrupts. And it does so very effectively. It doesn't silence very well, no, but that wasn't what we were talking about.
And please, please do not use Death Coil followed by Fear as a viable execution of spells. Death Coil can get dispelled with the trinket and anyone worth their salt in PvP will do so. 1.5 seconds to cast Fear is a long time when someone is hitting you. Especially if that someone has an interrupt ability, like Kick, or Earth Shock.
Refer back to my counter-rant on the Arena part. We can't summon Voidwalkers on the go and 13k health is not something you have until you're decked in epics. My Warlock has all the health increasing talents and she's at 10k with the Imp out. The Imp. I can't sacrifice the Imp to get a shield. I can't use the Imp to Spell Lock casters. Besides, most PvP'ers these days have over 10k unbuffed with the S1 gear being given away.
The "spell" that increases healing by 20% is Fel Armor. Not only can you dispel it, but it kinda sorta does nothing against incoming damage. And don't think I can keep my health up with Drain Life. You interrupt me while I'm using Drain Life and you'll lock down pretty much all I've got, provided I'm not Destruction spec'd, in which case I wouldn't be using Drain Life to begin with.
As I mentioned earlier, Death Coil doesn't last its full 6 seconds. Not if the opponent knows what he's doing. Fear doesn't last long either. Diminishing Returns and multiple ways of breaking it (including Tremor Totem, or Grounding Totem to begin with).
Yeah, I forgot. After your Earth Shock silence stops the opponent will cast that instant cast 10k crit on you. Silly me. I'm just wondering why he didn't do it to begin with instead of using something with a cast time so you were able to Earth Shock him.
20% damage reduction requires:
1. That you put 31 points into Demonology.
2. That you have an active pet out.
You talked about Shamans being pigeonholed into Restoration. Not all Warlocks want to be Demonology spec'd for PvP, let alone PvE. And any Warlock with Soul Link relies a great deal on his minion (Master Demonologist). Take out the pet and he'll be SOL faster than you can say "sh*t, no Ankh!"
You're talking about Warlocks like they actually have 123 talent points to spend at level 70. They don't.
Edited, Jan 20th 2008 1:20pm by Mazra
Drakothh wrote:
Um, what're you smoking? There is no class, with one snare that requires 21 points in a talent tree that requires another talent to make it decent and is dispellable and puts your snare system on a 3 minute cooldown.
Curse of Exhaustion. This is the only way to get it. Notice how I had to spend 21 points to get it. Not 21 wasted points, no, unless I by chance wanted to not be Affliction spec'd.
Oh, and last year called. They want their Chuck jokes back.
Drakothh wrote:
Well pal, in arenas we have 2 minutes to get ready, that's plenty of time to summon your friggin' felhuntard. So unless if you're talking about BGs, then please say so. Also, when we interrupt someone with earth shock, it is only a half second above the actual global cooldown. That is very ineffective. Death coil is several seconds, which gives you time to fear, which gives you time to stack up DoTs, which makes the other player very annoyed.
Awww, so cute and so clueless. PvP isn't all about the Arena, kid. And we blow a Soul Shard each time we change minion.
I'm not talking about how long Earth Shock silences your opponent. I was talking about how Earth Shock interrupts. And it does so very effectively. It doesn't silence very well, no, but that wasn't what we were talking about.
And please, please do not use Death Coil followed by Fear as a viable execution of spells. Death Coil can get dispelled with the trinket and anyone worth their salt in PvP will do so. 1.5 seconds to cast Fear is a long time when someone is hitting you. Especially if that someone has an interrupt ability, like Kick, or Earth Shock.
Drakothh wrote:
Refer back to the arena deal in my last rant. You can summon your voidwalker and sacrifice it before the arena, ya know. Oh and I bet that 13k health doesn't do much either. And that spell that increases healing taken by 20%. Yup, doesn't help at all.
Refer back to my counter-rant on the Arena part. We can't summon Voidwalkers on the go and 13k health is not something you have until you're decked in epics. My Warlock has all the health increasing talents and she's at 10k with the Imp out. The Imp. I can't sacrifice the Imp to get a shield. I can't use the Imp to Spell Lock casters. Besides, most PvP'ers these days have over 10k unbuffed with the S1 gear being given away.
The "spell" that increases healing by 20% is Fel Armor. Not only can you dispel it, but it kinda sorta does nothing against incoming damage. And don't think I can keep my health up with Drain Life. You interrupt me while I'm using Drain Life and you'll lock down pretty much all I've got, provided I'm not Destruction spec'd, in which case I wouldn't be using Drain Life to begin with.
Gaudion wrote:
The difference here being the amount of time you can keep someone else CC'd while you beat the ever-lovin' crap out of them in return. Everyone else has to worry about your CC constantly, and you only need an opening to have a good run of it. Shaman get no such counter-punch. We don't give and then take, or take and then give. We just take and take and take until we die.
As I mentioned earlier, Death Coil doesn't last its full 6 seconds. Not if the opponent knows what he's doing. Fear doesn't last long either. Diminishing Returns and multiple ways of breaking it (including Tremor Totem, or Grounding Totem to begin with).
Gaudion wrote:
Earth Shock silences for two seconds after the interrupt. That means that after our GCD (1.5 seconds) we have .5 seconds to do whatever we please. You know what else we can cast in .5 seconds? I'll give you a hint: it starts with "n" and ends with "othing".
Yeah, I forgot. After your Earth Shock silence stops the opponent will cast that instant cast 10k crit on you. Silly me. I'm just wondering why he didn't do it to begin with instead of using something with a cast time so you were able to Earth Shock him.
Gaudion wrote:
Yeah, that constant 20% damage reduction must really suck in PvP, especially when you can Drain Life. The fact that Soul Link is a talent is moot; every 'Lock specs Demo and takes it for PvP. Plus there's all the time that people, you know, actually don't spend hitting you because you can LoS with your DoT's running, and the time they're running around feared.
20% damage reduction requires:
1. That you put 31 points into Demonology.
2. That you have an active pet out.
You talked about Shamans being pigeonholed into Restoration. Not all Warlocks want to be Demonology spec'd for PvP, let alone PvE. And any Warlock with Soul Link relies a great deal on his minion (Master Demonologist). Take out the pet and he'll be SOL faster than you can say "sh*t, no Ankh!"
You're talking about Warlocks like they actually have 123 talent points to spend at level 70. They don't.
Edited, Jan 20th 2008 1:20pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
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I was talking about how Earth Shock interrupts.
I'd like to add that an untalented Earth Shock's cooldown is under a THIRD of that of a Warlock's interrupt. And deals damage. And doesn't require a certain pet out.
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As I mentioned earlier, Death Coil doesn't last its full 3 seconds.
And you were worried 6 seconds was underpowered xD
Also, the night after my guild first downs Princey I get 500 posts. Woot!
Mazra wrote:
Gaudion wrote:
The difference here being the amount of time you can keep someone else CC'd while you beat the ever-lovin' crap out of them in return. Everyone else has to worry about your CC constantly, and you only need an opening to have a good run of it. Shaman get no such counter-punch. We don't give and then take, or take and then give. We just take and take and take until we die.
As I mentioned earlier, Death Coil doesn't last its full 6 seconds. Not if the opponent knows what he's doing. Fear doesn't last long either. Diminishing Returns and multiple ways of breaking it (including Tremor Totem, or Grounding Totem to begin with).
I am getting really sick and tired of Warlocks acting like Fear is completely worthless. Hell, according to you guys, you don't even have it because it auto breaks immediately every single time you cast it. I'm not even going to get into this with you if you're going to be that unreasonable.
But, for the record, Tremor Totem blows. We can actually get feared out of the effective radius of the totem between the five-second pulses. It's that bad.
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Gaudion wrote:
Earth Shock silences for two seconds after the interrupt. That means that after our GCD (1.5 seconds) we have .5 seconds to do whatever we please. You know what else we can cast in .5 seconds? I'll give you a hint: it starts with "n" and ends with "othing".
Yeah, I forgot. After your Earth Shock silence stops the opponent will cast that instant cast 10k crit on you. Silly me. I'm just wondering why he didn't do it to begin with instead of using something with a cast time so you were able to Earth Shock him.
"The grass is always greener. I could do better." Being a sarcastic *** does not help your argument any, nor does it even begin to posit a reasonable counter to mine.
Opponents can do a lot of healing or a lot of damage in 4 seconds (3 if you're talented) of cast time. They don't need instants. Earth Shock does not stop anyone from doing anything at all, it merely delays them. You can't stop healers because it's your only tool to do that, and even if you do nothing but sit there and rotate ES/GT, not only are you still going to take some damage here and there, but you can't do anything else. As an offensive spec, we should be able to offer up some offense while using our tools; we can't. We have two choices: DPS, or delay the inevitable.
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Gaudion wrote:
Yeah, that constant 20% damage reduction must really suck in PvP, especially when you can Drain Life. The fact that Soul Link is a talent is moot; every 'Lock specs Demo and takes it for PvP. Plus there's all the time that people, you know, actually don't spend hitting you because you can LoS with your DoT's running, and the time they're running around feared.
20% damage reduction requires:
1. That you put 31 points into Demonology.
2. That you have an active pet out.
You talked about Shamans being pigeonholed into Restoration. Not all Warlocks want to be Demonology spec'd for PvP, let alone PvE. And any Warlock with Soul Link relies a great deal on his minion (Master Demonologist). Take out the pet and he'll be SOL faster than you can say "sh*t, no Ankh!"
You're talking about Warlocks like they actually have 123 talent points to spend at level 70. They don't.
First of all, acting like a Warlock will not have a pet out in PvP is even more ridiculous than any of your previous arguments. Even if the opposition takes your pet out, you can summon him back so fast it's ridiculous. If nothing else, time they spend beating on your pet is time they do not spend beating on you. Quit acting like your class is so incapable. Right now, you're one of the top three DPS/CC classes in all of PvP along with Warriors and Rogues.
SL/SL or ??/40/?? are your PvP specs. I am sympathetic to the fact that Warlocks might want to play Destro or Affliction in PvP, and Shaman currently sucking is no reason you shouldn't be able to. But just because you can't doesn't mean we should be forced to suck at PvP DPS either. You at least have one spec of DPS/CC that works in PvP. We don't. Elemental and Enhancement both fail miserably.
Edited, Jan 20th 2008 5:09pm by Gaudion
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