I was running around ghostlands on a spider kill quest (irony), when I had an idea for a dagger buff.
What if daggers had a buff where energy regeneration rate is slightly faster, say a tick is like 0.2 seconds faster (ish). In the game lore sense, it would be simply that swinging a dagger shouldnt be as physically exhausting as swinging a heavy sword or mace.
In the game sense, this would simply mean getting off more muts per time. A tick of 1.8 seconds instead of 2 seconds, and would require dual wielding daggers to activate the buff.
Wickedly overpowered?
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Following by your logic it would make more sense to give them a bit of haste rating for daggers. Yes the energy increase would probably still be overpowered.
However, the problem with Mut and Daggers(positioning) would still make them suck pretty bad.
However, the problem with Mut and Daggers(positioning) would still make them suck pretty bad.
That really wouldn't fix any specs like sub though. Everyone would probably tinker with combat-daggers and find it to be the flavor of the month. =\
Good idea though, and you're right it makes sense in a lore-ish sense.
Good idea though, and you're right it makes sense in a lore-ish sense.
Was talking this over with a friend at work. I think this would be a good 51 point talent for the Sub or Assass tree. Rather than just buffing all Rogues with something amazing like this, give it to the trees that focus mainly on daggers.
Dunno, fun idea to think about though!
Dunno, fun idea to think about though!
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However, the problem with Mut and Daggers(positioning) would still make them suck pretty bad.
Hai rogues have stuns. Also daggers were amazing pre-BC (same positional requirements in place).
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Hai rogues have stuns. Also daggers were amazing pre-BC (same positional requirements in place).
...and thats relevant because? Sure Seal Fate Swords was good before Mutilate but how many BC SF builds do you see now?
Daggers need something to offset the fact that Swords + Raid Buffs (read: Windfury) + Current Itemization trends in gear > Daggers.
Haste/Increased CP generation are probably two of the biggest buffs to the standard Combat Daggers build PvE wise.
Maybe it'd be simpler as a 51 point talent that reduces the energy cost of abilities by X% when wielding daggers.
Daggers should have a base chance to have your attacks completely ignore armor. Like put a 5/10/15/20/25% chance on Find Weakness to have any attack completely ignore a target's armor. Shouldn't that be what it does anyway?
How about the previous thread, where it was suggested that daggers have an innate resilience% ignore.
Innate resilience ignore isn't going to help your poor CP Generation (outside of Mutilate), and positioning issues in PvP.
The problem in WoW is that one weapon is better than another. Take for example the Glad Slicer vs the Glad Shanker. They have the exact same DPS rating and assuming no misses, the end result over a battle using strictly white damage would be the same. Where thew problem really comes in is yellow damage from SS/Hemo/Evis/etc.
In every other MMO I have played, a rogue class would be laughed at for using swords. Daggers rate above all always. WoW's setup of how the combat system works with yellow damage kind of screwed this though.
It's simple, really. Daggers attack faster, so strict white damage is the same even though the base damage on a sword is higher. The higher base damage on swords/maces make abilities hit harder. Combat daggers allows you to have an additional 5% crit rate, which helps, but does nothing for mut/sub builds. Ambush is an extremely powerful move and shadowstep > ambush is an extemely overpowered move, but only work as openers on the first mob of a group. Backstab and mutilate have positioning requirements that make them hard to execute in solo play and PvP.
The 5% crit increase while using daggers should be a passive ability, not requiring talent points. Daggers should ignore armor passively; after all, you shouldn't be banging on armor with daggers, you should be striking between the seams.
In my opinion, one weapon should not be better than another. What should be done is a normalization to where daggers, swords, and maces all do the same DPS including abilities. Rogue weapons are too unbalanced.
Rogues were designed with daggers in mind because that's what a rogue is supposed to use. Blizzard kind of screwed themselves though when they overpowered swords so much to where players all seem to lean towards that field. Daggers are great and can easily out-DPS swords when pulled off correctly, it's just not easy to do. What blizzard didn't take into account was the fact that the for the majority of their players, this is their first MMO. From the people I have talked to in game, veteran MMO players tend to use daggers and pull it off effectively. New players who have never played a rogue class in an MMO before don't have the already developed skill to make daggers worth their while. So to me it seems that the only real way to fix daggers in WoW is to make them easier to use.
In every other MMO I have played, a rogue class would be laughed at for using swords. Daggers rate above all always. WoW's setup of how the combat system works with yellow damage kind of screwed this though.
It's simple, really. Daggers attack faster, so strict white damage is the same even though the base damage on a sword is higher. The higher base damage on swords/maces make abilities hit harder. Combat daggers allows you to have an additional 5% crit rate, which helps, but does nothing for mut/sub builds. Ambush is an extremely powerful move and shadowstep > ambush is an extemely overpowered move, but only work as openers on the first mob of a group. Backstab and mutilate have positioning requirements that make them hard to execute in solo play and PvP.
The 5% crit increase while using daggers should be a passive ability, not requiring talent points. Daggers should ignore armor passively; after all, you shouldn't be banging on armor with daggers, you should be striking between the seams.
In my opinion, one weapon should not be better than another. What should be done is a normalization to where daggers, swords, and maces all do the same DPS including abilities. Rogue weapons are too unbalanced.
Rogues were designed with daggers in mind because that's what a rogue is supposed to use. Blizzard kind of screwed themselves though when they overpowered swords so much to where players all seem to lean towards that field. Daggers are great and can easily out-DPS swords when pulled off correctly, it's just not easy to do. What blizzard didn't take into account was the fact that the for the majority of their players, this is their first MMO. From the people I have talked to in game, veteran MMO players tend to use daggers and pull it off effectively. New players who have never played a rogue class in an MMO before don't have the already developed skill to make daggers worth their while. So to me it seems that the only real way to fix daggers in WoW is to make them easier to use.
Here's a quick suggestion for dagger positioning. Increase the arc at which you are behind your target. Right now I think its at about 60 degrees. If it were say 90 or 120 degrees that would make a big difference. Normalization of damage across all weapons would work well also.
The thing is, most of these people new to MMOs (as Aeonkurai stated) dont know how to pop gouge>BS or waiting that extra tick for optimum damage (as in muti, KS>wait for 60 energy>Mut x2). They think that if they arent pressing a button, they are literally throwing away damage and wasting time.
Jabbing that Sinister Strike button is the only thing that keeps these Noobs from going insane.
The thing is, most of these people new to MMOs (as Aeonkurai stated) dont know how to pop gouge>BS or waiting that extra tick for optimum damage (as in muti, KS>wait for 60 energy>Mut x2). They think that if they arent pressing a button, they are literally throwing away damage and wasting time.
Jabbing that Sinister Strike button is the only thing that keeps these Noobs from going insane.
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The thing is, most of these people new to MMOs (as Aeonkurai stated) dont know how to pop gouge>BS or waiting that extra tick for optimum damage (as in muti, KS>wait for 60 energy>Mut x2). They think that if they arent pressing a button, they are literally throwing away damage and wasting time.
I <3 daggers, but game mechanics put me to swords -- just from watching my ability to (1) solo quests, and (2) perform in instances (including PUGs).
If you don't have a great tank, or if your DPS aren't disciplined, it's terrible to try to use daggers in an instance. With swords, I don't have to worry that the mob is spinning in a circle, bouncing around the instance ... I can still do damage at ~100% (lose some to parry occasionally). It drove me nuts to be crippled in a PUG with a crappy tank.
Mutilate I tried for a bit, but couldn't stand the poisoning (not positioning) requirement for good dmg. CP generation was fantastic though. (And I missed Blade Flurry).
I would think that striking from behind with daggers should give a 30% chance or more to ignore armor.
and Shs should have a 100% chance to ignore armor when used with daggers.
and Shs should have a 100% chance to ignore armor when used with daggers.
If they wanted to fix subtlety tree to work with daggers, all they really need to do is give it some abilities that proc per strike and are not normalized. Fast daggers would be preferable then.
Instead, they give it abilities like hemmorage that happen at a set rate, according to your energy regen, so it's all about the max damage on a weapon, not its dps or speed, and consiquently slower weapons of a similar level will have higher damage than a fast weapon, therefore slower weapons are preferrable.
It would be quite easy to fix if they gave it a moment's thought; and would be great since there would actually be a difference in equipment and playstyle between subtlety and combat. hmmmmm..
Instead, they give it abilities like hemmorage that happen at a set rate, according to your energy regen, so it's all about the max damage on a weapon, not its dps or speed, and consiquently slower weapons of a similar level will have higher damage than a fast weapon, therefore slower weapons are preferrable.
It would be quite easy to fix if they gave it a moment's thought; and would be great since there would actually be a difference in equipment and playstyle between subtlety and combat. hmmmmm..
all the dagger suggestions ive read all end up filtering toward the ignore armor/res. which is the most realistic thing you could do for that weapon class. and the argument that this is just a game and not realistic blah blah. its very simple kindergarden physics here. maces smash, swords cut, and daggers find key openings. and the only justification to this logic that blizz can come up with is 5% crit on a talent only combat can reach . . . blizz really needs to set all weapon classes apart.
alot of MMOs have the right idea with things like:
Blunt get better to hit. or higher min damage
Axe get better Crit damage or higher max damage
Swords are all around average or above average or better parry
daggers have higher crit chances, faster or require less to use skills, default duel weilding.
in the end however, i think blizzards idea of fixing daggers is to just keep playing with ShS untill the skill its self falls apart like micheal jacksons face.
alot of MMOs have the right idea with things like:
Blunt get better to hit. or higher min damage
Axe get better Crit damage or higher max damage
Swords are all around average or above average or better parry
daggers have higher crit chances, faster or require less to use skills, default duel weilding.
in the end however, i think blizzards idea of fixing daggers is to just keep playing with ShS untill the skill its self falls apart like micheal jacksons face.
#17REDACTED,
Posted: Jan 14 2008 at 12:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Speculation is for noobs.
Originally, before expertise, weapon skill meant a little more.
I think FFXI's weapon skill system was well balanced for what weapons were best in what situations. For example, each weapon had a skill cap per class. Thief (one of the two rogue style classes in FFXI) could use daggers, swords, and fists most effectively. How it played out was that at level cap, you could cap out your dagger weapon skill at 260, but you could only cap out your sword or fist weapon skill at 220. So, while the overall damage pert hit was more with a sword or fists, your accuracy (hit %) was much less than with daggers, your crit rate was less, and your special abilities didn't hit as hard.
I was talking to a GM the other day (we originallu came into contact through a ticket I filed about a glitched quest mob) and I mentioned how I really like the sub tree and how I've been using sowrds lately but I prefer daggers. He mentioned that the sub tree was originally supposed to be dagger centered and that hemo was originally meant to be used with daggers. He played a sub rogue as well he said. Now I don't know what inside knowledge he has from the devs, as he is only a GM, but it does make sense. Most talents in the sub tree appear to be dagger focused. Stealth itself is dagger focused. Yet the main damager, hemo, works better with a slower weapon.
My idea would be to up the damage on hemo to 150%, make serrated blades only affect daggers, and either A) lower the energy cost on backstab or B) up the damage output on backstab. Personally I think no one weapon should be better than another. They should have the same DPS in the end (including yellow damage), but suited for different play styles.
I think FFXI's weapon skill system was well balanced for what weapons were best in what situations. For example, each weapon had a skill cap per class. Thief (one of the two rogue style classes in FFXI) could use daggers, swords, and fists most effectively. How it played out was that at level cap, you could cap out your dagger weapon skill at 260, but you could only cap out your sword or fist weapon skill at 220. So, while the overall damage pert hit was more with a sword or fists, your accuracy (hit %) was much less than with daggers, your crit rate was less, and your special abilities didn't hit as hard.
I was talking to a GM the other day (we originallu came into contact through a ticket I filed about a glitched quest mob) and I mentioned how I really like the sub tree and how I've been using sowrds lately but I prefer daggers. He mentioned that the sub tree was originally supposed to be dagger centered and that hemo was originally meant to be used with daggers. He played a sub rogue as well he said. Now I don't know what inside knowledge he has from the devs, as he is only a GM, but it does make sense. Most talents in the sub tree appear to be dagger focused. Stealth itself is dagger focused. Yet the main damager, hemo, works better with a slower weapon.
My idea would be to up the damage on hemo to 150%, make serrated blades only affect daggers, and either A) lower the energy cost on backstab or B) up the damage output on backstab. Personally I think no one weapon should be better than another. They should have the same DPS in the end (including yellow damage), but suited for different play styles.
I think Daggers should have the same mechanic that Fire Mages have. but in stead of fire Dot, it should be a Bleed.
the consepts of a dagger involve going for major arteries and other such bleedable spots, so it would make sense that any crits have a 10% of original damage (to make it viable to Resilience), added as a bleed effect over much the same amount of time that fire mages dot effect lasts.
conseptually it just makes alot of sense to buff it in that manner.
the consepts of a dagger involve going for major arteries and other such bleedable spots, so it would make sense that any crits have a 10% of original damage (to make it viable to Resilience), added as a bleed effect over much the same amount of time that fire mages dot effect lasts.
conseptually it just makes alot of sense to buff it in that manner.
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its very simple kindergarden physics here. maces smash, swords cut, and daggers find key openings.
WTF kind of kindergarten class did you take?
The bleed idea isn't bad. Personally I think the 'finding weakpoints' is already taken into effect considering you're using a small pointy thing and doing as much damage as a sword. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be doing much damage :P
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WTF kind of kindergarten class did you take?
my parents are vikings, the ones in that credit card commercial . . . /nod.
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