Hello All,
I'm currently doing a lot of BG's at lvl 29 trying to get some decent gear but will soon be back to grinding and picking up Windfury.
the question is what sort of Enchant is optimal for Windfury. Does a pure + Weapon Damage result in bigger Windfury crits or should I consider something like Firey Weapon and hope WF + FW proc at the same time to get some really big numbers.
Advice would be much appreciated.
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i would go for a +stre or agility enchant
In terms of interrelatedness with Windfury, a straight +damage enchant is superior to a proc. Weapon and enchant procs operate on a procs-per-minute basis that's independent of the actual number of weapon swings you get. Thus, the proc enchant doesn't benefit from Windfury at all, whereas the damage enchant does.
EDIT: Wow, wrong forums.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 7:44pm by RPZip
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 7:44pm by RPZip
Thanks for that. So if I'm due say 2 procs a min I have a 50% chance one of those is going to be WF and the other Firey Weapons say, therefore I'm nerfing both WF and FW at the same time!
Wow I am becoming a master at sabotaging my own character.
Wow I am becoming a master at sabotaging my own character.
Windfury isn't on the procs/minute aspect. It is a 20% chance on each swing. So +damage enchant will stack with WF. Fiery will proc on it's own and not affect WF at all.
Ooooooooohhhhhhhhh...........
26 posts
Quote:
Windfury isn't on the procs/minute aspect. It is a 20% chance on each swing. So +damage enchant will stack with WF. Fiery will proc on it's own and not affect WF at all.
True but to clarify: the issue is whether Fiery would BENEFIT from windfury. I believe ChahDresh's position is that when windfury procs Fiery, those bonus procs count against Fiery's proc-per-minute rating. But my gut feeling is, the extra procs are "free".
I believe that when you equip a Fiery weapon, the Fiery enchant is assigned a chance-per-hit proc rate based on weapon speed - for example, faster weapons proc less often per hit. The calculated chance-per-hit rate is referenced for every hit generated by the weapon. Example: you have Flurry up, and are hitting 30% faster than normal; then you are getting 30% more Fiery procs.
I'm convinced that the engine does NOT track Fiery procs for the purpose of maintaining a target average. If you examine your combat log, you'll see weapon procs in bursts just as you would expect, including higher procs per minute during Flurry and Windfury.
Because windfury hits generate procs normally, you can get alot of procs in a row. So seek weapon procs that can stack. For example, two successive Crusader procs off the same weapon will only partly stack. You'll get healed twice but loose the second strength bonus. By contrast, if you have a weapon that procs a bleed effect, it probably won't stack at all and you'll lose the extra proc.
Edited, Feb 21st 2008 12:18am by CyanCentaur
Quote:
True but to clarify: the issue is whether Fiery would BENEFIT from windfury. I believe ChahDresh's position is that when windfury procs Fiery, those bonus procs count against Fiery's proc-per-minute rating. But my gut feeling is, the extra procs are "free".
I could be wrong but I think this is correct, this si why so many shaman loved crusader in the past, even tho it had a 1 PPM or so, with a slow weapn, lets say 4 second just to make things easier that means 15 swings in 1 minute before WF, Flurry, an SS. I think thats a 4% proc chance, so regular attacks only have a 4% chance to proc it and will only proc one ever 15 attacks, but SS, WF, and Flurry all secretly increase chances providing free procs with the 4% proc chance.
This is the same Reason many lower level Warriors always like slow weapons with Fiery, since they spam Sunder so often, and can get free procs with it on sunder.
I could be wrong and this could all be a myth, but this is what I was told and followed when I was 60, but that was a while ago and could have since changed.
fiery is a straight chance on hit proc.
so every hit from your weapon has the same chances to proc fiery, no matter the speed.
crusader is a proc per minute;
this means that it has a set proc rate, independent of each swing. But this is misleading, it's proc rate is determined by the speed of the weapon, but for auto-attacks only, which sounds like it contradicted the previous statement.
Which they kinda do.
your basically right on with the whole % chance and skills/effects extra procing PPM enchants.
a 1 PPM enchant on a 3.5 speed weapon has a 5.8% chance to proc each and every hit. On a 4 speed weapon that's 6.6% chance per hit, on a 1.4 speed it's 2.3%... and so on and so on.
But your extra attacks, from WF and such, each have the same chance to proc.
Something to consider;
Crusader (1PPM) on a 1.4 speed is 2.3% chance to proc per hit
Crusader on a 2.6 speed is 4.3% chance to proc per hit
Crusader on a 4 speed is 6.6% chance to proc...
Striking (+7 weapon damage) on a 1.4 speed is 5 dps.
Striking on a 2.6 speed is 2.69 dps
Striking on a 4 speed is 1.75 dps
+5 weapon damage on a 1.4 speed weapon does an extra 3.571 dps
+5 weapon damage on a 2.6 speed weapon does an extra 1.923 dps
+5 weapon damage on a 4 speed weapon does and extra 1.25 dps
Fiery (10% chance on hit for 40 damage) on a 1.4 speed weapon is 2.86 dps.
Fiery on a 2.6 speed weapon is 1.54 dps.
etc...
Potency (+20 strength to weapon) on a 1.4 speed is 2.86 dps
Potency on a 2.6 speed weapon is 2.86 dps.
Potency on a 4 speed weapon is 2.86 dps...
so every hit from your weapon has the same chances to proc fiery, no matter the speed.
crusader is a proc per minute;
this means that it has a set proc rate, independent of each swing. But this is misleading, it's proc rate is determined by the speed of the weapon, but for auto-attacks only, which sounds like it contradicted the previous statement.
Which they kinda do.
your basically right on with the whole % chance and skills/effects extra procing PPM enchants.
a 1 PPM enchant on a 3.5 speed weapon has a 5.8% chance to proc each and every hit. On a 4 speed weapon that's 6.6% chance per hit, on a 1.4 speed it's 2.3%... and so on and so on.
But your extra attacks, from WF and such, each have the same chance to proc.
Something to consider;
Crusader (1PPM) on a 1.4 speed is 2.3% chance to proc per hit
Crusader on a 2.6 speed is 4.3% chance to proc per hit
Crusader on a 4 speed is 6.6% chance to proc...
Striking (+7 weapon damage) on a 1.4 speed is 5 dps.
Striking on a 2.6 speed is 2.69 dps
Striking on a 4 speed is 1.75 dps
+5 weapon damage on a 1.4 speed weapon does an extra 3.571 dps
+5 weapon damage on a 2.6 speed weapon does an extra 1.923 dps
+5 weapon damage on a 4 speed weapon does and extra 1.25 dps
Fiery (10% chance on hit for 40 damage) on a 1.4 speed weapon is 2.86 dps.
Fiery on a 2.6 speed weapon is 1.54 dps.
etc...
Potency (+20 strength to weapon) on a 1.4 speed is 2.86 dps
Potency on a 2.6 speed weapon is 2.86 dps.
Potency on a 4 speed weapon is 2.86 dps...
Devioususer, I believe you are wrong in saying that fiery is a fixed % to proc. I think it IS on the procs per minute system at 6 PPM (or something very close).
To the OP, see it like this (considering PVP that is):
- you should prefer SPIKY damage over STEADY damage, since it is so much harder to heal against
- pure +weapon damage increases your damage overall (no more spiky than no enchant, all hits just damages some more
- chance on proc enchants, based on PPM work as Devioususer described, with a very small addition (it is there between his lines, but it doesnt hurt to name it again): the chance to proc on a PPM enchant is calculated by the following formula:
Chance to proc FOR EACH HIT = <BASE weapon speed> * <PPM number> / 60
The FOR EACH HIT means that if you get extra attacks on top of your autoswings, those extra attacks have the same chance to proc as your autoswings, meaning that your EXPECTED procs per minute is higher than the PPM number, as Devioususer already pointed out.
The BASE in the equation means that haste (flurry for example) increases your number of attacks per minute but does NOT reduce the proc chance for each of those attacks. Meaning: more expected procs per minute than the PPM number.
I would say, jam on that very very very cheap fiery weapon enchant that adds to the spikyness of your weapon until later on (from item level 35 and up) when you can get your TBC enchants on your weapons.
Just my opinion though.
To the OP, see it like this (considering PVP that is):
- you should prefer SPIKY damage over STEADY damage, since it is so much harder to heal against
- pure +weapon damage increases your damage overall (no more spiky than no enchant, all hits just damages some more
- chance on proc enchants, based on PPM work as Devioususer described, with a very small addition (it is there between his lines, but it doesnt hurt to name it again): the chance to proc on a PPM enchant is calculated by the following formula:
Chance to proc FOR EACH HIT = <BASE weapon speed> * <PPM number> / 60
The FOR EACH HIT means that if you get extra attacks on top of your autoswings, those extra attacks have the same chance to proc as your autoswings, meaning that your EXPECTED procs per minute is higher than the PPM number, as Devioususer already pointed out.
The BASE in the equation means that haste (flurry for example) increases your number of attacks per minute but does NOT reduce the proc chance for each of those attacks. Meaning: more expected procs per minute than the PPM number.
I would say, jam on that very very very cheap fiery weapon enchant that adds to the spikyness of your weapon until later on (from item level 35 and up) when you can get your TBC enchants on your weapons.
Just my opinion though.
26 posts
Quote:
This is the same Reason many lower level Warriors always like slow weapons with Fiery, since they spam Sunder so often, and can get free procs with it on sunder.
My level 64 prot warrior has crusader on his axe. He constantly spams Devastate, causing crusader to proc like crazy. Makes him that much tougher for mobs to take down.
Quote:
Devioususer, I believe you are wrong in saying that fiery is a fixed % to proc. I think it IS on the procs per minute system at 6 PPM (or something very close).
Yeah I'm thinking that too. Ie: I really doubt a faster weapon would increase fiery procs. Not counting speed bonuses due to Haste, Troll Berserker, Windfury, Flurry, etc.
Quote:
I would say, jam on that very very very cheap fiery weapon enchant ...
Agreed, but if you've got an extra hundred gold or so lying around, Crusader is alot of fun and noticably increases your grinding pace. Put it on 2 weapons and you'll frequently get +200 AP, which is huge for players under 60. Not to mention all that extra health. Just beware that crusader causes area aggro (due to healing) which will get you pounded in instance runs.... unless you have a good maintank of course.
Base crusader proc rate = 1ppm
x 2.0 dual wielding
x 1.3 flurry
x 1.4 windfury
x (1 + 2.6/10) stormstrike
= 1 x 2.0 x 1.3 x 1.4 x 1.26 = 4.5 ppm
(actually a bit less due to dual-wielding hit penalty etc.)
This more or less matches my expectations from experience.
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