I am a level 67 Paladin who recently respeced to Protection to tank.
My character name is Chastena, I am on the Frostwolf relm and Bloodlust battlegroup (In case you wanted to look up my armor).
This is how I take encounters:
1: Avenger's Shield the group (granted there are no rogues sapping)
2: If more than two mobs come after me, keep Holy Shield up
3: Concecrate away from any crown control
4: Judgement of Crusader my target
5: Seal of Command.
If hate is pulled away:
Stun and Judge of Command OR Righteous Defense
Here are some questions I have:
1) What aura should I use? With Devotion and my shield I have 10.8k armor, should I sacrifice 800 armor for retribution aura for more threat?
2) What blessing. When I was holy I never gave myself anything other than BoW. Now I've been switching it up with BoK and BoM. However, I hear that I should be using blessing of sanctuary for the extra threat. I always use blessing of salvation on everyone else.
3) My mana. Being holy for so long, I have learned the fine art of mana conservation. Should I still be mindful of it or should I not be afraid to use up all my reserves on a group?
4) How good should my stats be? I have 10k armor unbuffed, 348 defense, a 5%, 10%, and 5.5% chance to dodge, parry, and block (respectfully, unbuffed), and +184 spell damage. Is this enough?
5) I tend to party with a good IRL friend of mine who is a 70 mage. He likes to down things as fast as possible, and in groups has caused wipes by doing things like opening with a double pyroblast, pulling hate and thus I don't have my righteous defense when I need it as its always on cool down. Is having to tell party members that they need to tone down their DPS a sign of a bad tank? or is it a sign on a bad <insert class>?
Finally, feel free to look at my build and offer more advise. I plan on creating a "how-to" thread on Paladin tanking in the future, I just need a place to start.
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1. Opening with Avenger's shield is fine, I usually do it myself.
2. I keep holy shield up at all times, I ALWAYS consecrate if it's a group and even on a boss for the extra threat spike.
3. Depends on how you pull, sheep pull usually means you can consecrate near the group and let the mobs run in to the affected area. Generally I pull the mobs to me and have my CCer's (I usually run with hunters) pull the stuff off of me for traps. But for my gear in normal 70 instances I've stopped using CC for anything but kara and heroics, I can handle the big groups now, it's the only way I can make my healer use mana.
4. I never use crusader, I always open with JoR then reapply it.
5. Don't tank using SoC, using SoC on a 1h caster weapon is counter productive, use SoR.
As for your general questons, I use Ret aura for trash and devo on bosses unless the boss is a caster of some kind then I use the corresponding aura.
For blessings, use Kings, Might is pointless for tanking cause your threat shouldn't be from white damage, if you really need extra threat use Sanc.
I say, use whatever mana you need to hold threat, if you are getting healed, then the heals should be keeping your mana up via spiritual attunement.
I can't remember my avoidance at 67, so I can't say much there.
Your mage friend is an idiot if he likes to open like that, give him Salvation, tell him to wait a few seconds and THEN go crazy. Again this depends on you to a degree, the mages I group with tell me I am the only tank they don't have to hold back with. At 67 you most likely can't say the same, best thing to do, tell him to tone it down and if he doesn't, let him die.
2. I keep holy shield up at all times, I ALWAYS consecrate if it's a group and even on a boss for the extra threat spike.
3. Depends on how you pull, sheep pull usually means you can consecrate near the group and let the mobs run in to the affected area. Generally I pull the mobs to me and have my CCer's (I usually run with hunters) pull the stuff off of me for traps. But for my gear in normal 70 instances I've stopped using CC for anything but kara and heroics, I can handle the big groups now, it's the only way I can make my healer use mana.
4. I never use crusader, I always open with JoR then reapply it.
5. Don't tank using SoC, using SoC on a 1h caster weapon is counter productive, use SoR.
As for your general questons, I use Ret aura for trash and devo on bosses unless the boss is a caster of some kind then I use the corresponding aura.
For blessings, use Kings, Might is pointless for tanking cause your threat shouldn't be from white damage, if you really need extra threat use Sanc.
I say, use whatever mana you need to hold threat, if you are getting healed, then the heals should be keeping your mana up via spiritual attunement.
I can't remember my avoidance at 67, so I can't say much there.
Your mage friend is an idiot if he likes to open like that, give him Salvation, tell him to wait a few seconds and THEN go crazy. Again this depends on you to a degree, the mages I group with tell me I am the only tank they don't have to hold back with. At 67 you most likely can't say the same, best thing to do, tell him to tone it down and if he doesn't, let him die.
EDIT: a typo, and warning that this became an essay, hehe.
I may restate something in the above post, but that's ok :) Here's my take on your questions:
Generally speaking you should use Retribution Aura all the time. If you are fighting casters then obviously you'll want the corresponding Resistance Aura (if you have one). Also for harder hitting mobs, and sometimes bosses, go ahead and put up Devotion Aura. For bosses DPS should know to give you a bit more time for aggo so Ret Aura isn't as much of a factor, while the extra armor can go a long way in a longer fight in preventing damage you take.
Might sucks for a Paladin end of story. If you have 4 Paladin buffs you'll still not want Might (Sanctuary, Kings, Light, Wisdom). Might aside, it depends on a couple factors what to use. If you need the threat, use Sanc. The damage reduction isn't enough to warrant using it for that, so threat is the only reason you'll want it. If that's not a problem, use Kings. If you're overgearing something, even downgrading your gear, then you'll want to run Wisdom to make sure you can keep a healthy mana pool.
Always be mindful of your mana pool. There's nothing like going oom and not being able to taunt, put up Holy Shield, etc.. There will be times you go oom, there will also be times that relentlessly spamming your spells won't affect your mana pool at all. You have to learn the limits of your mana pool and cast accordingly.
I honestly don't remember my stats at your level, but its flexible before 70. Once you want to start raids/heroics then is the time you'll really want to have a certain minimum. If I remember correctly, those stats are in the FAQ. If not, I apologise :)
Having to tell players to tone down is the mark of an overzealous and undisciplined DPS, no fault of the tank (as long as you are doing what you need to to build threat). Give Salv to DPS and make sure you do what is necessary to build your threat, but any well played/geared DPS should be able to pull threat if they try. This Mage friend needs to re-think his/her opening moves to allow you and any other tank ample time to build threat.
General tips based on the unquoted part of your post: never use SoC while tanking, ever. Threat is Holy damage based, so you might get a good threat boost here and there, but it is so unpredictable its not worth it. Not to mention SoC does best loading up on melee stats and using a big, slow, 2H weapon with lots of crit rating (none of which a Tankadin will have).
If a Rogue saps, unless it's part of a group strategy, throw the damn shield at his sap anyway, lol. That's your threat, and as long as you and the healer can handle that one extra mob beating on you, no reason not to.
I'm seeing a lot of +healing, Intellect, and Mp5 on your gear. Is this because you haven't had a chance to build a full Prot set yet? Really the only piece of gear you should have with spell type stats is your weapon. Make the rest "Warrior tank" gear to maximize your armor, avoidance, and stamina. A spell damage weapon will be plenty sufficient for spell stats till you progress through raids.
Talents: you missed Anticipation. This will go a LONG way to help you become uncrittable and eventually uncrushable. I also highly recommend Ardent Defender. I can't count the number of times that talent alone has saved my bacon. Stoicism: crap unless you PvP. Guardian's Favor: not necessary. I found more and more it's a "fluff" talent for PvE. Spell Warding: why leave this out? One of the only ways we have to mitigate spell damage. Imp Might, swap for Benediction, and pick up Imp Judgement. Vindication and Eye for an Eye: drop, they are useless for a tank. And as mentioned, SoC is useless and counter productive for a tank.
Feel free to check my armory (first link in my sig) for a great Prot build.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 12:45am by Maulgak
I may restate something in the above post, but that's ok :) Here's my take on your questions:
PtrN wrote:
1) What aura should I use? With Devotion and my shield I have 10.8k armor, should I sacrifice 800 armor for retribution aura for more threat?
Generally speaking you should use Retribution Aura all the time. If you are fighting casters then obviously you'll want the corresponding Resistance Aura (if you have one). Also for harder hitting mobs, and sometimes bosses, go ahead and put up Devotion Aura. For bosses DPS should know to give you a bit more time for aggo so Ret Aura isn't as much of a factor, while the extra armor can go a long way in a longer fight in preventing damage you take.
PtrN wrote:
2) What blessing. When I was holy I never gave myself anything other than BoW. Now I've been switching it up with BoK and BoM. However, I hear that I should be using blessing of sanctuary for the extra threat. I always use blessing of salvation on everyone else.
Might sucks for a Paladin end of story. If you have 4 Paladin buffs you'll still not want Might (Sanctuary, Kings, Light, Wisdom). Might aside, it depends on a couple factors what to use. If you need the threat, use Sanc. The damage reduction isn't enough to warrant using it for that, so threat is the only reason you'll want it. If that's not a problem, use Kings. If you're overgearing something, even downgrading your gear, then you'll want to run Wisdom to make sure you can keep a healthy mana pool.
PtrN wrote:
3) My mana. Being holy for so long, I have learned the fine art of mana conservation. Should I still be mindful of it or should I not be afraid to use up all my reserves on a group?
Always be mindful of your mana pool. There's nothing like going oom and not being able to taunt, put up Holy Shield, etc.. There will be times you go oom, there will also be times that relentlessly spamming your spells won't affect your mana pool at all. You have to learn the limits of your mana pool and cast accordingly.
PtrN wrote:
4) How good should my stats be? I have 10k armor unbuffed, 348 defense, a 5%, 10%, and 5.5% chance to dodge, parry, and block (respectfully, unbuffed), and +184 spell damage. Is this enough?
I honestly don't remember my stats at your level, but its flexible before 70. Once you want to start raids/heroics then is the time you'll really want to have a certain minimum. If I remember correctly, those stats are in the FAQ. If not, I apologise :)
PtrN wrote:
5) I tend to party with a good IRL friend of mine who is a 70 mage. He likes to down things as fast as possible, and in groups has caused wipes by doing things like opening with a double pyroblast, pulling hate and thus I don't have my righteous defense when I need it as its always on cool down. Is having to tell party members that they need to tone down their DPS a sign of a bad tank? or is it a sign on a bad <insert class>?
Having to tell players to tone down is the mark of an overzealous and undisciplined DPS, no fault of the tank (as long as you are doing what you need to to build threat). Give Salv to DPS and make sure you do what is necessary to build your threat, but any well played/geared DPS should be able to pull threat if they try. This Mage friend needs to re-think his/her opening moves to allow you and any other tank ample time to build threat.
General tips based on the unquoted part of your post: never use SoC while tanking, ever. Threat is Holy damage based, so you might get a good threat boost here and there, but it is so unpredictable its not worth it. Not to mention SoC does best loading up on melee stats and using a big, slow, 2H weapon with lots of crit rating (none of which a Tankadin will have).
If a Rogue saps, unless it's part of a group strategy, throw the damn shield at his sap anyway, lol. That's your threat, and as long as you and the healer can handle that one extra mob beating on you, no reason not to.
I'm seeing a lot of +healing, Intellect, and Mp5 on your gear. Is this because you haven't had a chance to build a full Prot set yet? Really the only piece of gear you should have with spell type stats is your weapon. Make the rest "Warrior tank" gear to maximize your armor, avoidance, and stamina. A spell damage weapon will be plenty sufficient for spell stats till you progress through raids.
Talents: you missed Anticipation. This will go a LONG way to help you become uncrittable and eventually uncrushable. I also highly recommend Ardent Defender. I can't count the number of times that talent alone has saved my bacon. Stoicism: crap unless you PvP. Guardian's Favor: not necessary. I found more and more it's a "fluff" talent for PvE. Spell Warding: why leave this out? One of the only ways we have to mitigate spell damage. Imp Might, swap for Benediction, and pick up Imp Judgement. Vindication and Eye for an Eye: drop, they are useless for a tank. And as mentioned, SoC is useless and counter productive for a tank.
Feel free to check my armory (first link in my sig) for a great Prot build.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 12:45am by Maulgak
unless i was in a heroic, i consicrate all CC on perpose.
there is no reason for it if your a pally, it just makes the fights longer. unless of course your underlvl or undergear'd for the instance.
there is no reason for it if your a pally, it just makes the fights longer. unless of course your underlvl or undergear'd for the instance.
Multiple fearing mobs, mobs that MC, mobs that charge random party members: there's a few occasions here and there where I still use CC not because I need it, but because a certain mob doing something at the wrong time can really make my life frustrating. I remember a time in Shattered Halls Heroic we were at the first 2 pack, both mobs happened to charge the Mage at the same time effectively 1-shotting him. I started having 1 sheeped after that ;)
Quote:
Finally, feel free to look at my build and offer more advise. I plan on creating a "how-to" thread on Paladin tanking in the future, I just need a place to start.
I have a basic "how-to" in the FAQ, and Thels has a very in-depth guide into gear and a little bit into strategies. What more do you want?
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