Trimming the fatFollow

There is always going to be some amount of useless “stuff” in a game. This is the stuff that no one uses; the greys people vendor; the stuff no one cares about.

Resilience killed daggers. Not something new to anyone. Ambush no longer kills clothies in one shot and is absolutely useless in pvp unless you just want to embarrass someone. Ambush is useless. If you follow Nooble’s guide, there is not a single instance you’ll use ambush. You level using swords. From the point when you get it to the point you conquer [insert BT goal or 2k+ arena] you’ll use swords or maces and therefore never, ever, use Ambush.

There are still rogues who use Mutilate despite its handicaps. Target needs to be poisoned. Both hands need to crit. You need to be behind. The craziest part of this, to me, is something else- you need to use daggers. The whole point of Mut is that if a rogue gets behind you he ruins your sh*t. Not to get all rpg on you, but were I a rogue in RL I wouldn’t need to use daggers to ruin you. If I had maces or swords I could (and most likely would) still ruin every part of your day.

Part of the reason Mut is getting crapped on is because daggers are dead- high crit gets killed by resilience; no damage output because they’re small piece of metal. If you could use swords or maces to Mut I’m not saying it would suddenly bring Mut back into play- it wouldn’t- but it would at least give people a reason to try it.

Why are daggers even in the game? Do Warlocks actually use them for spell bonuses? Does any class use them for anything except for Mutilate rogues who are only Mut because it’s what they like or it’s fun or whatever? Those are fine reasons- it’s a game after all- but if an entire class of weapon in the game is essentially useless, why not just scrap it and come up with something better?

The beginning of the Assassination tree is or at least is being used for CP generation, and that only. Poisons are easy to cleanse but are extremely valuable to rogues trying to kite, reduce healing, hit harder or any of the above. So half of the Assassination tree is useful.

The Combat tree is great…or it would be if we were the only class that had it. It provides us a necessary boost in white damage, bonuses to energy regen, expertise, hit, stun resist, and a large damage bonus to the attacks frequently used. Problem is, warriors and druids have similar (or the exact same in some cases) talents or trainable abilities as we have in the Combat tree. Awesome...

HARP was great fun. You could do great damage, actually win once in awhile, and even provide the rest of your team with a benefit to your existence, limited as it was. Now you can’t do nearly as much damage, can’t attack nearly as fast, but you can still provide a benefit to your team (and now it even works!). Cool. I’d rather have a warrior or a druid.

Subtlety is a great idea for a tree. It completely embodies what a rogue is supposed to be about. The only problems are, again, the fat. Imp Ambush is trash because no one uses ambush. Hemo took a heavy nerf but still provides utility (sort of). Shadowstep is an awesome idea but a terrible 41 talent. Sinister Calling now “buffs” hemo so it can do similar (but still less) than SS.

In Summary:

Issue: Pick something. If you still want daggers to be part of the game, make them inherently ignore armor, resilience or both. If you don’t want to do that, get rid of Imp Backstab, Backstab, Ambush, Imp Ambush and Mut in its current form; get rid of daggers as a weapon class, and give us new talents instead of the useless ones.

Reason: Rogues are supposed to be smart attackers with lots of tricks. If I’m using a dagger against someone wearing full plate mail I’m not going to hit the plate and hope the dagger goes through- I’m going to hit between the plates. If I’m behind you and using a sword, there’s no reason I can’t stab you, ambush you, or tear you up with both of them.

Issue: The combat tree. There isn’t a point to making a rogue if there’s nothing special about the only tree you can (realistically) use in PVE or PVP. HARP worked because it was overpowering, but it also worked because it was a trick. It was “roguey”.

Reason is self-explanatory. Fix it by adding something special to the tree. Something no other class has. Something we can use as a trick, as a buoy to other classes in our group, as a reason to create a rogue in the first place.

Issue: Subtlety. If daggers and the talents/skills involved with them are abolished, it makes this tree open to any number of possibilities. Daggers are broken. Hemo was the solution, but now it doesn’t do enough damage anymore. Shadowstep is tremendous fun and offers great utility (sometimes) but it’s a horrible 41 talent. I have to “pay” 40 points into a tree to get something warriors can train and druids pay what…10-15 points for? Bad.

Fix: If you get rid of daggers and the backstab skills/talents, as stated this tree opens up. SStep should be trainable. The new 41 talent should either be a huge damage bonus, a huge stat bonus, or so sort of trick (like SStep is, but better).

WoW used to be Rock, Paper, Scissors. Instead of being balanced, WoW is now a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors + that imaginary thing you used to throw in in grade school that half the time trumped your friends and half the time got you punched in the face.

/rant

-Knife

rate up even though you repeated yourself like 6 times, and its all been said before.

rate up for typing a lot.

I rolled a rogue as my main because I have played a rogue class in just about every MMO I have ever played. Rogues are fun. In every other game I have played, you would be laughed at to no end if you were a rogue using swords. Swords have ALWAYS been gimped weapons for rogues in every other game considering rogues were built around fast attacks and heavy burst damage. With a sword you're bashing against plate, with a dagger you are (like you said) striking in between the plates. So why couldn't Blizzard actually look at the way rogues are normally built in other games and make WoW rogues actual rogues?

I actually leveled my rogue using daggers, ambush, stuns, and backstabs...and doing roguely things like sneaking around places I shouldn't be. I ding 70 and still love rogue in all its glory... but all I hear is combat swords this, combat swords that... so I decide to just go with the norm. After speccing combat swords I find myself.... spending more time on mage and warlock.

I do wish Blizzard would make rogues more roguely. But they would probably have to create an entirely new class to do it, otherwise it would make all the "leather wearing fury warrior" rogues mad. Me, personally, I would like to have a real rogue/thief/ninja class.

Ok, that's my addition to your dead horse rant. Boredom while waiting for this work day to be over is killing me.

Sorry for the delay- just started my work day. Now let's see...



This is wrong. Daggers aren't usable weapons anymore. If you're looking to be "roguey" then daggers make sense as your weapon, they just don't actually work like daggers. You don't swing a dagger at someone's shield. You try to dodge or block until the right moment you can actually stab under their arm and critically wound them. That's "roguey". Trying to attack someone in plate is useless if you use a dagger like a sword.



The desire to play a rogue isn't what I'm talking about. It's that whatever draws you to being a rogue- whether it's doing damage, stealthing, being shady, whatever- there is a class that does it more effectively. Druids don't have exactly the same attacks as us, but they can also shapeshift into a tank, heal, or spell dps. Warriors have the same combat tree as us, can counter any move we make, and can change stances (not that they need to vs rogues) to become a different beast entirely.

It's not that I'm saying "don't play a rouge, we are teh sukz", I'm saying why play a class when every other class can do what we do better than we can?



HARP was essentially combat+Hemo. I disagree about the "rogueyness" of it though. Prep is a Rogue skill. It's the "you think I'm done, you think I've wasted everything and you're still beating me? *Boom* Prep - back in the game".

It wasn't a subtlety build, it was the only build that delved into the Sub tree that people actually used and found value in in PVP. SStep is fun, but PVP you'll get your a$$ handed to you.

I think fist weapons should be used for mutilate, ambush, backstab. >.>

Using daggers in the offhand is an awful idea now due to the changes in Whirlwind.

Warriorman, awaaaaaaaaay!



Shaolinz, I think you found a new buddy.

Have you ever even seen a paladin?

Blizz would have a good tim balancing that, but its a great idea.