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#27 Jan 10 2008 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
Terrorfiend
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Good response. And you are basically correct.

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my opinion on it....well, when you make a warrior, your signing a hidden agreement that youll suck *** unless you A.) have good-to-great gear, and B.) have support. blizzard has stated on more than once occasion that warriors are balanced around group pvp. they are designed to excel with support and fail miserably without it.

now, any class can excel with support, but no other class (to my knowledge anyway) is balanced based on having support. so naturally when in an environment where team interaction is emphasized, the class that is balanced around team interaction will thrive there.


I believe blizz has said itself that all classes (in the context of PvP0 are balanced based on 5v5 arena, or that at least was their goal. So every class is "supposedly" being balanced this way. No class should be getting F'd over. whether their release day design was to be good at 1v1 pvp or not doesnt matter. the game has changed and things need to be changed to go with it.
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in short, no one rolls a warrior because they want to solo gank people around the world, or stalk prey in a BG. thats what rogues do. likewise, no one rolls a rogue because they want to rely on others to get the job done. rogues are loners, attacking their enemies from the shadows when they least expect it.


I wouldnt be surprised if you rolled your warrior with PvP in mind. I didnt roll my rogue to solo gank people. It was fun while leveling, but leveling is such a small part of this game, so small blizzard is trying to minimize it. I rolled it because i wanted to do leet damage in raids. Back when i made my warrior, i rolled it because i wanted to try tanking. /shrug.

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its a tough line to walk tho, because on the one hand youve got the non-arena realm of the game, which encompasses pretty much everything else and in which rogues as a class are pretty much fine, and then youve got the arena side of things, where rogues arent bad per se, but theyre definetely not the best. changing things to help rogues in arena would necessitate a change to their power elsewhere, but who knows what repurcussions that would have. more importantly, if they do change things, how can do they do so without destroying what the rogue class is?


HARP didnt cross that line though. Against PvP geared targets in a group setting they were viable again. Rogues changed specs for PvE, however the DPS difference was marginal. Another plus was that it brought a less than stellar class up in ranks without nerfing the top dogs.

Rogues are mad and they simply dont understand the logic behind the change. So we are going to ***** about it. and frankly i think its deserved. Ive been playing long enough and have had enough "mains" to be nerfed several times and this is the only time my mind has been totally boggled by it.

Blah anyway i was interrupted about a million times writing this and i dont think i even made a point...
#28 Jan 10 2008 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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8,779 posts
i dunno about HARP personally. it wasnt really an issue for me (as in, a HARP rogue couldnt kill me unless i was stupid or horridly (i.e. warglaives) outgeared). clothies complained, but rogues are kinda sposed to eat clothies, so no biggie there.

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I wouldnt be surprised if you rolled your warrior with PvP in mind. I didnt roll my rogue to solo gank people. It was fun while leveling, but leveling is such a small part of this game, so small blizzard is trying to minimize it. I rolled it because i wanted to do leet damage in raids. Back when i made my warrior, i rolled it because i wanted to try tanking. /shrug.


actually, it was a couple of reasons, tanking and pvp being part of it. mostly it was my love of warriors from FF11 carried over, and the rest was knowing, first hand, what a supported warrior was capable of doing. one friend wanted to be a lock, another a rogue, a third a priest, and the final one a paladin. i looked at my options and what i knew, and i didnt feel like doing a druid again yet so i went war.

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I believe blizz has said itself that all classes (in the context of PvP0 are balanced based on 5v5 arena, or that at least was their goal. So every class is "supposedly" being balanced this way. No class should be getting F'd over. whether their release day design was to be good at 1v1 pvp or not doesnt matter. the game has changed and things need to be changed to go with it.


i dunno about the other classes, but the only class ive seen specifically stated was warrior. it was a post in the warrior test realm forums back in BC beta addressing some of the issues warriors had with various changes. kalgan said flat out that they built the warrior class with support in mind. so you get a class that can solo most stuff, but nothing near the level of what the other classes can do, either in terms of difficulty or grinding speed. but when supported, a warrior can just keep killing and killing and killing.

but ya, no class should get F'd. i just dunno what theyre gonna do to change it. i have faith in blizzard, because theyre damn good, and theyve surprised me before, but this is one helluva pickle.
#29 Jan 11 2008 at 2:59 AM Rating: Decent
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3,909 posts
Goddamn, Tyr. Every class-relevent post I've seen you make so far has been you complaining about rogues. I don't think I've ever heard you say anything good about rogues. You've got decent dialectics but seriously, man. Lighten up.

#30 Jan 11 2008 at 9:03 AM Rating: Excellent
I'll lighten up when there is something to lighten up about :\.

This is most likely the biggest nerf the rogue class has received - yes, we're back to 2.2, it's like 2.3 never happened... for us. For everybody else, 2.3 and 2.3.2. were buff patches (or least, not nerf patches).

But it's not all gloom and doom, my mage is a lot of fun to play with Icy Vein, and if everything go as planned, he'll have over 400 Resilience next week :)

Edited, Jan 11th 2008 12:06pm by Tyrandor
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