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38/23 vs 10/48/3?Follow
Has anyone tried 38/23 http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/mage/talents.html?2500050300230150330123050500201230203000000000000000000000000000000
as opposed to full fire with the same scorch fireball rotation as used in
10/48/3. Just kind of intrigued if it could out dps full fire, you would still get the burn effect, same crit rate(if not a little higher), same cast speeds
but have much more damage, mana, mana efficiency and more crit +damage bonuses.
With the bigger crits your ignites would burn for more.
I think the main question is if the last 20 percent in a full fire is enough to
offset the higher damage and bigger crits from going 38 to arcane.
Any thoughts? I havent tested it yet but may go to dr doom when server comes back up.
A build like that tends to just be a scorch spamming build (using lightening capacitor or something of that sort).
Here is why 10/48/3 will be better:
You are missing out on many of the most damaging talents in the fire tree:
playing with fire +3%
fire power +6%
combusion (increased chance to crit 3x)
molton fury 20% more damage when mob less than 20% hp
empowered fireball 15% more power on the fireball
pyromaniac 3% more crits
The other one you get about 8% more total spelldmg (not including the AP which hurts your mana efficiency).
To put it simply: full fire scales better with more damage than the arcane build.
Here is why 10/48/3 will be better:
You are missing out on many of the most damaging talents in the fire tree:
playing with fire +3%
fire power +6%
combusion (increased chance to crit 3x)
molton fury 20% more damage when mob less than 20% hp
empowered fireball 15% more power on the fireball
pyromaniac 3% more crits
The other one you get about 8% more total spelldmg (not including the AP which hurts your mana efficiency).
To put it simply: full fire scales better with more damage than the arcane build.
Actually im full fire right now with base fire crit at 34 percent, in the spec i linked i would have base 35+ crit for fire. spell damage around 968 in 10/48/3 for fire if spellfire set on , would be over 1100 in 38/23. would lose combustion but pick up 30 percent crit on clearcast which procs a lot but i think the big gain is
spell power, +50% crit strike damage bonus and arcane instability alone gives
3% spell damage + 3 percent crit, neutralizing playing with fire and pyromaniac both. I think i am going to run the numbers and spend the spec money to come up with hard numbers on it
also with the arcane meditation and the 2 points in master of elements i believe you could use arcane power every cooldown and still not go oom, especially with patch gem buff
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 3:07pm by Toxicityoh
spell power, +50% crit strike damage bonus and arcane instability alone gives
3% spell damage + 3 percent crit, neutralizing playing with fire and pyromaniac both. I think i am going to run the numbers and spend the spec money to come up with hard numbers on it
also with the arcane meditation and the 2 points in master of elements i believe you could use arcane power every cooldown and still not go oom, especially with patch gem buff
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 3:07pm by Toxicityoh
Ok tried it out, didnt spend long enough to be foolproof but with spellfire/spellstrike set on 10/48/3 was better by about 45 dps avg.
With stat gear on (robe of elder scribes, t4 head/gloves, voodoo belt, s3 pants)
38/23 was better by about 25 damage.
overall 10/48/3 seems better because there isnt as much difference as i thought in the crit on fireball between the specs due to the empowered fireball.
If anyone else has tried this spec please respond though i didnt spend enough time testing to be foolproof in results. The fireball crit rate when i was running the arcane/fire test was much lower than my base fire crit of 35percent, but ran out of time to run it again to get it closer to average crit rate.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 4:28pm by Toxicityoh
With stat gear on (robe of elder scribes, t4 head/gloves, voodoo belt, s3 pants)
38/23 was better by about 25 damage.
overall 10/48/3 seems better because there isnt as much difference as i thought in the crit on fireball between the specs due to the empowered fireball.
If anyone else has tried this spec please respond though i didnt spend enough time testing to be foolproof in results. The fireball crit rate when i was running the arcane/fire test was much lower than my base fire crit of 35percent, but ran out of time to run it again to get it closer to average crit rate.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 4:28pm by Toxicityoh
ktangent wrote:
For those who are having trouble reading it, basically you need a ******** of crit(36% or so from gear only when you have 700 +dmg, meaning a lot more after talents) to beat 10/48/3 with 33/28/0. As +dmg goes higher, you need more and more crit.
Since damage is much easier to stack than the extreme levels of crit needed, you find yourself in a place where 10/48/3 is likely to be the most effective spec for the majority of raiding fire mages.
You'll note on that graph that 10/48/3 gets better a lot faster than 33/28 as well. 33/28 was actually discovered, iirc, when a program was written to compare spec, but ignored gear save trinkets. It's a fairly flawed spec by definition, relying on extremely high crit rates and TLC (which has since been nerfed) to make Scorch stand up to Fireball. This also ignores that 0/47/11+3 is now the best spec for damage.
Rate up to Toxic for testing his own theory and shamelessly admitting that it did not come up to its projections.
After running some numbers (it's late.. so i'm probably all messed up) But I've found that at higher spell dmg lvls (around 1k) the 40/21 spec deals 1% more damage then the 10/48 spec. This using 10 fireball casts with the deep fire haveing a 30% crit and the deep arcane having 20% crit. With a mix of spell power (50% more crit dmg) and ignite (crits causing 8% of their dmg over 2 ticks) the 1 extra crit you get in the deep fire isn't enough to overcome the extra crit dmg and extra tick dmg.
Quote:
After running some numbers (it's late.. so i'm probably all messed up) But I've found that at higher spell dmg lvls (around 1k) the 40/21 spec deals 1% more damage then the 10/48 spec. This using 10 fireball casts with the deep fire haveing a 30% crit and the deep arcane having 20% crit. With a mix of spell power (50% more crit dmg) and ignite (crits causing 8% of their dmg over 2 ticks) the 1 extra crit you get in the deep fire isn't enough to overcome the extra crit dmg and extra tick dmg.
Is this assuming that scorch was stacked? Is the mob health below 20%? How about making this calculation on a boss mob where the mage does 100K damage and look at the dps of that? Also, it's very easy to compare numbers on Lhivera's script page.
I went to this myself with my character and compared him with deep arcane/fire vs deep fire... for fireball, I got huge differences:
POM-Pyro spec:
694.21 Fireball
Deep fire spec:
937.48 Fireball
I have 1100 spell damage, but this would be consistant with the graph linked above.... Pol used to have a spreadsheet that would push out numbers as well...
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 7:38am by ktangent
DarkHybridX wrote:
After running some numbers (it's late.. so i'm probably all messed up) But I've found that at higher spell dmg lvls (around 1k) the 40/21 spec deals 1% more damage then the 10/48 spec. This using 10 fireball casts with the deep fire haveing a 30% crit and the deep arcane having 20% crit. With a mix of spell power (50% more crit dmg) and ignite (crits causing 8% of their dmg over 2 ticks) the 1 extra crit you get in the deep fire isn't enough to overcome the extra crit dmg and extra tick dmg.
Was this assuming against a raid boss (level 73) where you need to stack +spellhit? When you spec 40/21/0 you need to have around 216 (I believe is the number) spellhit to be hit capped where with 10/48/3 you need 164.
As kt mentioned, did you have improved scorch debuff up? average combustion? molten fury?
Actually, as deep arcane... if you're using AM and AB, you only need 76 spell hit. See wowwiki.
202 is the total spell hit for lvl 73 raid boss with 0 +hit.
*dang.... I need to read more. Sorry, Anobix. I see you were responding to the fireball quote... with fireball you'd need all that +hit which would ***** up your +damage. Nice catch, Anobix.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 8:42am by ktangent
202 is the total spell hit for lvl 73 raid boss with 0 +hit.
*dang.... I need to read more. Sorry, Anobix. I see you were responding to the fireball quote... with fireball you'd need all that +hit which would ***** up your +damage. Nice catch, Anobix.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 8:42am by ktangent
Slightly off topic, but can somebody link me to a 10/48/3 build please?
This is the defacto 10/48/3 (note, 1 point is up to you to put somewhere)...
Quote:
This also ignores that 0/47/11+3 is now the best spec for damage.
Agreed, after pvp this week i went to 0/50/11 and went on a badge farming run with guild in Kara and finally got back to the top spot on dps meters on tank and spank bosses. Been awhile since seen the top, but was 3+% higher than next on nightbane and maiden, also on curator and netherspite but cant count those because of the evocate variables and was in blue beam 2 full cycles.
Anxious to try in 25s this weekend been running 4th to 8th range on dps in those lately.
Thank you kindly Ktangent.
Toxicityoh wrote:
Quote:
This also ignores that 0/47/11+3 is now the best spec for damage.
Agreed, after pvp this week i went to 0/50/11 and went on a badge farming run with guild in Kara and finally got back to the top spot on dps meters on tank and spank bosses. Been awhile since seen the top, but was 3+% higher than next on nightbane and maiden, also on curator and netherspite but cant count those because of the evocate variables and was in blue beam 2 full cycles.
Let me tell you, in 5 mans this thing shines, almost to the point of being broke. We ran Heroic SP last night with our top mage, top warlock and top SP in the guild. We are usually VERY competitive when it comes to instances, even 5 mans. Anyway, the mage SMOKED us, garnering 35% of the total damage, to the warlock and I's 25% and 24%, respectively. It was almost comical how badly we were beaten. And yes, I know, burst damage versus sustained, yadda yadda. Even on bosses that took more than 45 seconds to beat he creamed us.
Believe me, as soon as I'm done PVPing, my mage will be getting a very similar spec. I just enjoyed two-shotting a warrior last night too much to respec out of deep arcane yet. Of course he spent the rest of the night badgering me...
Edited, Jan 11th 2008 8:27am by TheEngine
On the bright side, his spellhit rating is terrible, so take note in that for bosses. In the case of 5-mans the mobs aren't above 71 (I believe) so having 100 spellhit is fine, but when it comes to bosses (73 elite) he is sitting 64 points below cap.
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