Ive done two instances now. In both groups I had multiple hunters. In both groups one hunter did have a pet.
Is this common? Stupid? Strange? Is there a reason or a bonus to not using a pet I didn't know?
In both parties the rest of the members were confused especially the other hunter.
I'm just confused as to why someone would give up such a large portion of their job. Even if you didn't do anything with the pet and just kept it on defensive it would add DPS.
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What level range? I have noticed that the majority of low level toons (that arent some 70s alt) are very very clueless. I hear all the time by hunters, "my pet died and i havent found another" or some crap like that. I always refer people to these boards. No matter what class they are f-ing up, they usually can be "fixed" by coming here.
Hyrdo
*edit* just saw your charcters levels. Yep, you are in that range buddy.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 2:45pm by rinkkel
Hyrdo
*edit* just saw your charcters levels. Yep, you are in that range buddy.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 2:45pm by rinkkel
In my group a hunter without a pet is an instant /kick. There is no reason for a hunter to not have a pet out.
Well we did fine. Just stupid.
I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some no pet super secret bonus only lvl 70 hunters know.
I just wanted to make sure there wasn't some no pet super secret bonus only lvl 70 hunters know.
Well, some instances, a pet is pretty much useless. Some instances, they are a requisite, you MUST have that pet for offtank or add pick up or something.
I ran Gnomer without a pet pretty easily back in the 30ish levels. That was because the first time I forgot to put pet away during the jump... and we all know what happens then- half the instance ends up coming for you!
So, next time, helping a buddy, I just put the pet away and it worked fine. The pet was really unnecessary at that point.
I'd never recommend a /kick unless the person is given a chance to explain the rationale. Generally, they just aren't comfortable pet users and they either need to learn how or to retoon.
I ran Gnomer without a pet pretty easily back in the 30ish levels. That was because the first time I forgot to put pet away during the jump... and we all know what happens then- half the instance ends up coming for you!
So, next time, helping a buddy, I just put the pet away and it worked fine. The pet was really unnecessary at that point.
I'd never recommend a /kick unless the person is given a chance to explain the rationale. Generally, they just aren't comfortable pet users and they either need to learn how or to retoon.
sloshot wrote:
So, next time, helping a buddy, I just put the pet away and it worked fine. The pet was really unnecessary at that point.
I guess extra DPS for a DPS class really is unecessary. My mistake.
I'll be sure that when I am playing my healer I'll only use my low rank heals, because I'm still healing and anything more than the bare minimum is unecessary.
I'll be sure that when I am playing my tank I'll only sunder just enough to get aggro, because it's unecessary to go any farther than the bare minimum.
.... I really don't know what to say about being complacent about mediocrity.
Edit: grammar was not my best subject.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 3:53pm by SynnTastic
Has nothing to do with mediocrity. Sometimes managing the pet takes you away from your primary DPS role- lowering your DPS or delaying the party unnecessarily. In Gnomer, for instance, pets tend to die quickly or set off bombs that players would avoid. For a MM spec hunter, the pet is not a large DPS boost. For BM, it's unthinkable not to have a pet out. For SV... don't know, probably closer to MM than BM maybe someplace in the middle, that's a guess though.
In the end, you have to weigh the cost of maintaining (Food, Rezzing, Healing, Commanding) versus all the abilities (not just DPS) of the Pet (DPS, CC, Off tank, advance scout, etc.) If the abilities are marginalized in some fashion by the majority of the mobs/bosses in the instance then you might consider not running with a pet and getting just as much function out of your role as you would with it. It's just like some CLASSES suck in certain instances.
It would be usual to choose not to have a pet but it's not DPS threatening at all times. Group leader should ask WHY the pet isn't out and if the Hunter came back with some lame excuse, ask them to get it out or leave the party if the instance requires it. Who knows, maybe they were in town, didn't have their pet out to conserve on food, hopped a flight and just ran to the instance without the pet out. Using the /kick logic, you could've just dumped an awesome hunter that just hadn't called their pet yet.
So, does it really hurt to not ASSUME huntard and instead ask?
(Edit: spelling)
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 1:34pm by sloshot
In the end, you have to weigh the cost of maintaining (Food, Rezzing, Healing, Commanding) versus all the abilities (not just DPS) of the Pet (DPS, CC, Off tank, advance scout, etc.) If the abilities are marginalized in some fashion by the majority of the mobs/bosses in the instance then you might consider not running with a pet and getting just as much function out of your role as you would with it. It's just like some CLASSES suck in certain instances.
It would be usual to choose not to have a pet but it's not DPS threatening at all times. Group leader should ask WHY the pet isn't out and if the Hunter came back with some lame excuse, ask them to get it out or leave the party if the instance requires it. Who knows, maybe they were in town, didn't have their pet out to conserve on food, hopped a flight and just ran to the instance without the pet out. Using the /kick logic, you could've just dumped an awesome hunter that just hadn't called their pet yet.
So, does it really hurt to not ASSUME huntard and instead ask?
(Edit: spelling)
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 1:34pm by sloshot
sloshot wrote:
Excuses for mediocrity
Pressing 3 buttons at oportune times takes away from your DPS?
Those three buttons of course being:
Pet Attack
Pet Follow
Mend Pet
If those land mines are put down, press Pet Follow, mend pet if it is hit, once the mine has blown press Pet Attack, or you can take one shot to kill the mines. Keeping your pet out of an entire fight because it might die from the land mine is an excuse for mediocrity.
Regardless of spec a pet is extra DPS. Every reason you come up with for not having your pet out and fighting is just an excuse for you not to do extra DPS.
Following your logic, why should I pay an extra XX silver per stack of Warden's Arrows when I can get the cheaper Blackflight Arrows. Why waist my gold on those elixirs/flasks/food when it is only a minor DPS increase.
The answer is this:
You are a DPS class and as such it is your goal/responsability to the group to do as much DPS as possible, while not risking the group{read:don't steal aggro from the tank})
I have yet to be in an instance where my pet can't contribute to DPS unless I am leveling a lowbie pet to my own level. (With the group approval of course) Be it as Beastmastery or Survival, my pet is a DoT with a healthbar. Better yet, it is a DoT with optionals like poisons, ranged attacks, half AoE damage and so on.
There's never any reason to go into an instance without your pet. Pet control mostly lies in three buttons as has already been stated. When jumping off ledges, Eyes of the Beast and jump your pet down first and have him stay. When fighting very AoE intensive fights, use Mend Pet and pull your pet out once in a while to regain health. Then back in to help out with the dps. It may not be much DPS, depending on specc. But it most certainly will help you out.
It would suck fairly hard if there's a wipe at 2% or less, and your pet was languishing somewhere else.
No pet = fail as a Hunter.
There's never any reason to go into an instance without your pet. Pet control mostly lies in three buttons as has already been stated. When jumping off ledges, Eyes of the Beast and jump your pet down first and have him stay. When fighting very AoE intensive fights, use Mend Pet and pull your pet out once in a while to regain health. Then back in to help out with the dps. It may not be much DPS, depending on specc. But it most certainly will help you out.
It would suck fairly hard if there's a wipe at 2% or less, and your pet was languishing somewhere else.
No pet = fail as a Hunter.
I agree. However at a low level I do feel you have an opertunity to teach a young hunter instead of just /kick them.
If they give aditude then by all means kick the punk but teach them something if they are willing to learn.
Thats just my thoughts.
If they give aditude then by all means kick the punk but teach them something if they are willing to learn.
Thats just my thoughts.
one comment I get is from so-called tanks. My pet will out tank them, so they want me to turn off growl. If they do ok, then no problem, but I can do more with a pet then any tank can. I love tagging a NPC and sicking Blackey on them then moving to a different NPC, and repeating. Blackey will gather up 4-5 and I drop a volley and a trap, down 4-5 NPC. So much fun, and now with a snake trap, cruising!!
I'm sorry, either you are deliberately missing the point or are incapable of understanding what this is about. You keep telling all of us "DPS! DPS! DPS!" yet you seem not understand what I'm taling about or the larger picture.
You are talking END-GAME RAID DPS this whole time. According to the OP's sig, his Hunter is 29. That means he's doing low-mid level instances where the Pet is not as crucial to the group survival. You do NOT have to do maximum DPS, get the max gear possible for each level, get the best weapon and ammo for each level and use Food\Elixers\Trinkets or power ups because it makes only minor differences in the DPS and the mobs and bosses die just as quick. You would be either a perfectionist of **** proportions or a huntard for trying.
So please address the actual point of all my posts in regards to your /kick comment, which seems to have triggered your ire:
Does it really hurt to not ASSUME huntard and instead ask?
You are talking END-GAME RAID DPS this whole time. According to the OP's sig, his Hunter is 29. That means he's doing low-mid level instances where the Pet is not as crucial to the group survival. You do NOT have to do maximum DPS, get the max gear possible for each level, get the best weapon and ammo for each level and use Food\Elixers\Trinkets or power ups because it makes only minor differences in the DPS and the mobs and bosses die just as quick. You would be either a perfectionist of **** proportions or a huntard for trying.
So please address the actual point of all my posts in regards to your /kick comment, which seems to have triggered your ire:
Does it really hurt to not ASSUME huntard and instead ask?
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
I have yet to be in an instance where my pet can't contribute to DPS unless I am leveling a lowbie pet to my own level. (With the group approval of course) Be it as Beastmastery or Survival, my pet is a DoT with a healthbar. Better yet, it is a DoT with optionals like poisons, ranged attacks, half AoE damage and so on.
I agree
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
There's never any reason to go into an instance without your pet.
Never? Wow, even 'for the hell of it?'? So, if I'm running some lowbies through VC and I 1-shot nearly everything in sight, I'm a huntard for not having my pet out? That seems a bit harsh North. Pet doesn't contribute anything significant, costs food and gets no XP. But since there is NEVER any reason why I should have the pet put away... I guess I'm wrong.
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
Pet control mostly lies in three buttons as has already been stated. When jumping off ledges, Eyes of the Beast and jump your pet down first and have him stay. When fighting very AoE intensive fights, use Mend Pet and pull your pet out once in a while to regain health. Then back in to help out with the dps. It may not be much DPS, depending on specc. But it most certainly will help you out.
Not arguing the ease with which a pet is controlled, but dismiss is faster than "Eyes of the Beast, jump, take damage and stay" in my opinion and it costs me a piece of easy to get food.
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
It would suck fairly hard if there's a wipe at 2% or less, and your pet was languishing somewhere else.
No pet = fail as a Hunter.
Well, I'd agree if I wasn't considering where we are talking about in levels. Newer hunters have problems trying to control pets correctly, especially now that they level faster and with less experience controlling their pets and all things considered would likely cause more wipes WITH the pet than the scenario you are describing North. Yeah, it would suck but you also have to be confident in the Hunter and you are never going to know why a hunter doesn't have a pet out until you ASK them, which was my main point. If they aren't skilled with the pet, then the group either has to offer to train them or ask them to get more experience with the pet before having them join in.
I just object to assumptions that because a hunter doesn't have a pet out when they leap through a portal that they are a huntard.
Actually, I'm not talking about End Game DPS all the time. I'm talking about every single encounter towards which you are equally leveled and geared. I don't give a shit about boosting. Go in naked and oneshot things with a fishing rod for all I care. In every single instance for your own level, the pet will be a DPS tool (unless of course 20 levels below the instance level, for xp purposes) which should never be ignored.
Also, on a boss fight a pet would never cause a wipe. Even if the Hunter had Growl on, the boss would kill the pet and return to the tank who should be second on the threatlist at that moment.
More importantly, you are talking about wipes due to lack of skill or knowledge of pet control. Well how the flying fUck is the Hunter going to learn pet control and the dangers of not controlling it well if he doesn't use it while leveling? I very quickly understood the dangers of a loose pet already in Deadmines. In Gnomeregan I had a rather frightening experience which taught me how to keep my pet the hell away from ledges if I could. In Uldaman I even learned the dangers of wall ornaments, which was apparently easy for my pet to get onto, but not off.
By level 40, I had learned so much about pet control and pet dangers, that I avoided wiping my group in the later and far more serious instances. If the Hunter is putting away his pet in the lower level instances where the ceiling for fUckups are higher than Mount Hyjal, he most certainly isn't going to know how to use his pet efficiently in the TBC instances/raids, where your pet definitely makes a difference in your DPS.
Causing one wipe, or close calls while learning, in lower level instances is far preferrable to causing wipe after wipe in TBC instances where deaths cost you helluvalot more of your available gold. Not to mention the serious hit to his pride he'll have, when he realizes that he's neglected a very huge part of a Hunter's skillset.
Not to mention that anyone with a brainstem should learn these things quite fast the first time they come across situations like that.
So, I'll repeat. There's never any excuse for not bringing your pet. Even if boosting, because the petfood is cheap as hell and would be another *********** the boostee just got aggro while I am busy" button.
No pet = Fail as a Hunter. And that's no matter your specc, instance, level, pet type and so on. Even if he's only by your side 99% of the time, he just might be useful for that last 1% of the encounter.
Also, on a boss fight a pet would never cause a wipe. Even if the Hunter had Growl on, the boss would kill the pet and return to the tank who should be second on the threatlist at that moment.
More importantly, you are talking about wipes due to lack of skill or knowledge of pet control. Well how the flying fUck is the Hunter going to learn pet control and the dangers of not controlling it well if he doesn't use it while leveling? I very quickly understood the dangers of a loose pet already in Deadmines. In Gnomeregan I had a rather frightening experience which taught me how to keep my pet the hell away from ledges if I could. In Uldaman I even learned the dangers of wall ornaments, which was apparently easy for my pet to get onto, but not off.
By level 40, I had learned so much about pet control and pet dangers, that I avoided wiping my group in the later and far more serious instances. If the Hunter is putting away his pet in the lower level instances where the ceiling for fUckups are higher than Mount Hyjal, he most certainly isn't going to know how to use his pet efficiently in the TBC instances/raids, where your pet definitely makes a difference in your DPS.
Causing one wipe, or close calls while learning, in lower level instances is far preferrable to causing wipe after wipe in TBC instances where deaths cost you helluvalot more of your available gold. Not to mention the serious hit to his pride he'll have, when he realizes that he's neglected a very huge part of a Hunter's skillset.
Not to mention that anyone with a brainstem should learn these things quite fast the first time they come across situations like that.
So, I'll repeat. There's never any excuse for not bringing your pet. Even if boosting, because the petfood is cheap as hell and would be another *********** the boostee just got aggro while I am busy" button.
No pet = Fail as a Hunter. And that's no matter your specc, instance, level, pet type and so on. Even if he's only by your side 99% of the time, he just might be useful for that last 1% of the encounter.
about 2years ago this was common, groups saw soo many hunters messing up instances causing wipes with the pet(mostly it was told a helpful #put it on passive" but alot of knowitall party"leaders" also told young hunters to put it away all togheter.
My guess the hunter i question prob had a bad run erlier messing up with his pet(at level 20 not everyone knows everything, might even been the first run meaning he was nervous) so might have been told to put it away that run and asumed pets arent supposed to be out in instances.
whatever reason he had, at that level just ask and help him understand if needed.
Even in lv60 raids ALOT of guilds had no pet rules back then, partly cause they died quick unless you knew how to use them, but i belive the fear of hunters messing up also was part of it.
do think some things has been done to pets pathfindig since then also and trust me i agree that the is usually no reason to not have a pet out, just trying to give some possible reasons and explinations
its just like how i used to always get a lol whenever i was seen in SW with +spelldamage gear at lv60, still there were a reason behind it
My guess the hunter i question prob had a bad run erlier messing up with his pet(at level 20 not everyone knows everything, might even been the first run meaning he was nervous) so might have been told to put it away that run and asumed pets arent supposed to be out in instances.
whatever reason he had, at that level just ask and help him understand if needed.
Even in lv60 raids ALOT of guilds had no pet rules back then, partly cause they died quick unless you knew how to use them, but i belive the fear of hunters messing up also was part of it.
do think some things has been done to pets pathfindig since then also and trust me i agree that the is usually no reason to not have a pet out, just trying to give some possible reasons and explinations
its just like how i used to always get a lol whenever i was seen in SW with +spelldamage gear at lv60, still there were a reason behind it
I must say, NorthAI is certainly intelligent, compared to more than half the gamers alive.
I've run with two people without pets. One wanted a bat from rfk, and planned on running all the way thru without a pet. He got angry because I told him to go get a pet to take through and dump it when we got to the bats.
and then the stupid mage with us only used aoes and kept ruining the taming process. The hunter got his bat, and 5 minutes later wanted a boar.
the other time, the guy insisted his data got lost so his pet disappeared.
but this is also the guy that constantly followed my boyfriend's 70 mage around INSISTING he give him money for things.
and then the stupid mage with us only used aoes and kept ruining the taming process. The hunter got his bat, and 5 minutes later wanted a boar.
the other time, the guy insisted his data got lost so his pet disappeared.
but this is also the guy that constantly followed my boyfriend's 70 mage around INSISTING he give him money for things.
cyanidewine wrote:
I've run with two people without pets. One wanted a bat from rfk, and planned on running all the way thru without a pet. He got angry because I told him to go get a pet to take through and dump it when we got to the bats.
sloshot wrote:
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
There's never any reason to go into an instance without your pet.
Never? Wow, even 'for the hell of it?'? So, if I'm running some lowbies through VC and I 1-shot nearly everything in sight, I'm a huntard for not having my pet out? That seems a bit harsh North. Pet doesn't contribute anything significant, costs food and gets no XP. But since there is NEVER any reason why I should have the pet put away... I guess I'm wrong.
Or we all become lawyers.
I've booted a hunter from my group before for not running a pet. But he also refused to wear any armor. (Wierded me out watching a naked NE male running around in ZF with nothing on but some blue bow.)
I understand that some people want to try things like leveling to 70 naked or never running a pet. I wish them the absolute best of luck...but I'd rather not have them in my group. Bring your "A" game to instances. Or at least your "B+" game.
I understand that some people want to try things like leveling to 70 naked or never running a pet. I wish them the absolute best of luck...but I'd rather not have them in my group. Bring your "A" game to instances. Or at least your "B+" game.
i just do not understand some players be it hunter or another class that wants to play silly games like having no pet with them ,hunters get a pet to help themselves keep alive and in a group are valuable to protect the healers at the very least , even if low level to the hunter they can help to stop the healer from being killed or at least give the tanks time to regain aggro
the original poster stated the groups from what he said were not friends of his and i have seen some bad groups as well , so now i will only do instances where i know the people or are good friends of friends that i trust to play correctly , as to taking a low level pet with you , yes that is ok but only if the group knows what you are doing and accept it .
if i found i was in a group with a hunter that had no pet i would not go in an instance with them , if i found a warlock with no pet i would do the same and yes i once saw a warlock in a group that had his felhound ? on passive ? and that was the last time i tried a group that i did not know as we wiped several times as each class was out to do as much damage as they could and the healer just could not keep up on healing the group as they kept pulling new targets before the last died ,
my advice is if you see a class not working as they should walk away there are many decent players out there that do know what they are doing
the original poster stated the groups from what he said were not friends of his and i have seen some bad groups as well , so now i will only do instances where i know the people or are good friends of friends that i trust to play correctly , as to taking a low level pet with you , yes that is ok but only if the group knows what you are doing and accept it .
if i found i was in a group with a hunter that had no pet i would not go in an instance with them , if i found a warlock with no pet i would do the same and yes i once saw a warlock in a group that had his felhound ? on passive ? and that was the last time i tried a group that i did not know as we wiped several times as each class was out to do as much damage as they could and the healer just could not keep up on healing the group as they kept pulling new targets before the last died ,
my advice is if you see a class not working as they should walk away there are many decent players out there that do know what they are doing
NorthAI the Hand wrote:
Actually, I'm not talking about End Game DPS all the time.
Sorry North, that post wasn't for you, it was in response to Synntastic who WAS quoting nothing but end-game strategy.
I don't disagree with any of your positions regarding the pet, or technically any of Synn's. What I disagree with is the judgemental attitude of:
"No pet" = /kick
or
"No pet = fail as a hunter"
That accomplishes nothing, helps nobody, as well as creates and reinforces a negative stereotype.
I gave a "for instance" when a pet is actually detrimental to an instance. Nobody seems to have disagreed with it.
If you and your pet WAAAAY outlevel an instance, and you're there for kicks or to power level someone, your pet can cause problems. Another thing I failed to mention is that if your pet solo kills something, you can't loot it and in way low level instances, it'll kill a lot: fast. So even if you keep it by your side on passive, you're just costing yourself food. That alone logically invalidates the black/white line being espoused.
Perhaps this is the only 'time' it's reasonable to put away the pet. I don't know. The one time I ran Gnomer without my pet, I couldn't decern any impact, had I, I would've whistled the pet up. It's really not that hard. The group didn't fail. The point was, I didn't need it and we didn't wipe once. I can't say that the pet would've caused wipes, the first time in Gnomer with the pet, I was far less experienced with handling the pet and being a hunter, but it seems like between 25 and 35 is when my learning the class picked up. Probably not uncommon. The no pet time was like the 4th or 5th time I'd run it and I was trying a suggestion from a friend. It was a guild run and my friend was in the group, no harm no foul. Nobody cared.
You guys can draw these lines in the sand all you want, but I'll always side with the human element of asking why and if someone needs to learn, even as you agreed with me, offer to help.
There's no right or wrong here. I agree that a hunter should have their pet out all the time unless they have a good reason. If I run into a hunter who's just goofin' off and doesn't have a pet out, I can't call them a failure, they are just goofin' off, they could by god's gift to hunters for all I know. If I let them into a group, I'd ask them to use the pet, if they didn't want to, I'd ask them why. If they had a good reason and I didn't care, and it wouldn't likely affect the outcome of the group goal, 'whatever'. If the reason sucked or I felt it would affect the goal, then I'd thank them for offering to participate and ask them to find a group that could support their current 'need' as ours couldn't.
Never hurts to be polite.
sloshot wrote:
Never hurts to be polite.
QFT!
I could not agree more. I dont know how many times I have thought "What a ******" about a character... But on every single occasion I try to be polite to said person, and to perhaps aid him as much as possible towards gaining a greater insight into what he or she is doing wrong.
Worst case scenario, the ****** wont learn anything from it. Best case scenario, the ****** might learn from the mistakes and become a better player.
Politeness is the way ahead in my book, I have met way too many self-proclaimed elitist idiots to care about them. I'd rather have a newb willing to learn, than some smart-*** who thinks he knows everything.
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