The thing is that you have limited 25 man experience.
If you pull aggro off a tank in the first 5-10 seconds of a fight as a raider you fail, not just a little but by a lot, in fact you fail at such a fundamental level that you should not even be allowed in a raid. So using that as an argument is not even worth mentioning.
Then it comes down to sustained threat, and like I have mentioned before it is not even contested anymore. It is a well known fact that a prot warrior will beat a prot pally on a single target threat. Also last stand is very nice, as mentioned.
It's like arguing whether swords or daggers do more damage on a rogue. Daggers aren't bad but swords are always going to win out for raid dps. At least until the class gets another balance.
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Pally tanks beyond KaraFollow
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Pally tanks shine the most at the T5 level, and can last through early T6 level. Past that point, their threat generation simply does not scale well compared to the rest of the classes. Yes, this does include bosses. Pally tanks work exceptionally well on Leotheras (shield = ranged high threat move), Tidewalker (warriors take a lot of crushing blows due to earthquake eating a shield block charge) and various roles in the Karathress, Lurker and Hydross fights. I personally have tanked Al'ar, Void Reaver and parts of the Kael fight with no aggro problems.
The problem with pally tanks is that they are hard to initially gear up to uncrushable. There is also the unavoidable class problem of Holy Shield. Due to the identical duration and cooldown, there will still be crushing blows that get through.
Pallies can tank a lot. The main reason they don't is quite simple. When people are making a character and they want to tank, they roll a warrior.
The problem with pally tanks is that they are hard to initially gear up to uncrushable. There is also the unavoidable class problem of Holy Shield. Due to the identical duration and cooldown, there will still be crushing blows that get through.
Pallies can tank a lot. The main reason they don't is quite simple. When people are making a character and they want to tank, they roll a warrior.
Honestly the threat at the very beginning of a pull is near meaningless. You don't have mages pop PoM + trinkets for their first cast. Warlocks do near no damage in the first 10 seconds of the fight. Rogues don't blow their cooldowns as they're running in. The raid holds back at first. The problem is real TPS. A paladin can keep sustained TPS on multiple mobs (ie. hyjal trash) better than any class, and they might be very good at initial aggro, but honestly for the most part warriors blow away paladins at sustained threat. I wish I could show ya'll the TPS of my favorite tank mongerthod, but he's DPS spec right now so his armory doesn't tell you anything. He usually AVERAGES 1000 TPS on a boss fight, and on certain bosses he can get even higher. Then he joined Obsidium with me, and gets out tanked by this guy:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=Cbozz
Paladins don't have the health of warriors. Paladins have to worry about mana (a warrior is ready for the next pull instantly). Paladins don't have the single-target sustained TPS. Paladins don't have a static 10% damage reduction to all attacks magical and physical (which is huge). Paladins don't have last stand (which has saved more raids than I can count). And paladins can't stance dance out of fear (though this has somewhat been nerfed). I like paladin tanks in certain situations. I don't want one as my main tank.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostmane&n=Cbozz
Paladins don't have the health of warriors. Paladins have to worry about mana (a warrior is ready for the next pull instantly). Paladins don't have the single-target sustained TPS. Paladins don't have a static 10% damage reduction to all attacks magical and physical (which is huge). Paladins don't have last stand (which has saved more raids than I can count). And paladins can't stance dance out of fear (though this has somewhat been nerfed). I like paladin tanks in certain situations. I don't want one as my main tank.
I average around 650 TPS on my prot pally, who isn't "well geared" by most standards, barely well enough to tank a T5 boss, I would say. The reason I said that they are sub optimal for Gruul is mostly because you're going to lose Holy Shield time to silence and it would be killer. For higher gear levels it's not a problem, but for a fresh from Kara Pally, it will cost you a few fights for sure.
VR, the problem is one that can be micro managed off. If the other tanks let you build a threat lead, it won't be a problem, but if you go in there and after 5 seconds it's onto someone else, you can kiss any chance of getting him back goodbye. You're just not taking the hits to generate the threat.
VR, the problem is one that can be micro managed off. If the other tanks let you build a threat lead, it won't be a problem, but if you go in there and after 5 seconds it's onto someone else, you can kiss any chance of getting him back goodbye. You're just not taking the hits to generate the threat.
Whats with all the tankadin hate in this thread? Where is the belief? I thought this was paladin forum?
I think paladins have it harder, in terms of basic stats for tanking. What I do beleive however is that a well played paladin tank brings more to the raid than a well played warrior tank. Tonight I was tanking nightbane. As well as tanking the ground phase I was calling people over to me for the air phase, grabbing all the skeletons, tanking them, taunting rogue ones, bubbling clothies, and cleansing the whole raid, then getting back in position to aggro nightbane as he lands without any misdirection. I would really like to see a warrior pull all of that off.
That, admittidly, isn't a t5 boss, but we all know pallies have tanked everything in the game. I don't know whether it any have tanked them when not on farm, but at least they can do it, and I think the different aspects a pally can bring to a raid makes them even with with a warrior for MT spot. In the posts above there are numerous fights where the tankadin is the prefered tank. Maybe not half of them, but surely this means the tankadin is as viable as the warrior, just for different fights (why are the warriors fights more important?)
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Incidently, is there any website where you can build a talent spec and gear for a character and see what the stats would be? I would be interested to see what a properly specced warrior and tankadins stats are when equally geared (can the site include buffs aswell please, to see what the difference is raid buffed.. cheers!)
I think paladins have it harder, in terms of basic stats for tanking. What I do beleive however is that a well played paladin tank brings more to the raid than a well played warrior tank. Tonight I was tanking nightbane. As well as tanking the ground phase I was calling people over to me for the air phase, grabbing all the skeletons, tanking them, taunting rogue ones, bubbling clothies, and cleansing the whole raid, then getting back in position to aggro nightbane as he lands without any misdirection. I would really like to see a warrior pull all of that off.
That, admittidly, isn't a t5 boss, but we all know pallies have tanked everything in the game. I don't know whether it any have tanked them when not on farm, but at least they can do it, and I think the different aspects a pally can bring to a raid makes them even with with a warrior for MT spot. In the posts above there are numerous fights where the tankadin is the prefered tank. Maybe not half of them, but surely this means the tankadin is as viable as the warrior, just for different fights (why are the warriors fights more important?)
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Incidently, is there any website where you can build a talent spec and gear for a character and see what the stats would be? I would be interested to see what a properly specced warrior and tankadins stats are when equally geared (can the site include buffs aswell please, to see what the difference is raid buffed.. cheers!)
Chamual wrote:
What I do beleive however is that a well played paladin tank brings more to the raid than a well played warrior tank.
I think this about as wrong as, on the opposite side of the scale, "tankadins are worthless in raids". Matter of fact, well played prot warriors don't give up their spot because a good tank of any class is vastly superior to a bad tank of any other regardless of the nature of the pull.
The diversity of the game leaves ample room for every tanking class to contribute, and having at least one of each beyond 10-men allows the medium-tiered raids the optimal flexibility. The point is, though, a good raid leader will use the best tanks available for each pull or boss fight, and in this context, the best tanks available means the combination which will give the greatest sum of speed of killing and safety to the raid.
And you can't argue that there are several fights in the game where the gap in native class capabilities is so large that unless you have an extraordinarily skilled AND geared tank of the class least suited for the fight, it's not worth putting your raid at an extra risk when another class may be similarly geared but by the nature of the design of the encounter be simply at a huge native advantage.
In other words, from the pallie perspective, it is needlessly hard on player and raid to use a warrior on large AoE pulls when you have a tankadin available, but conversely, it is needlessly harder to use a tankadin on a silence fight when you have a warrior or a bear around.
Less ego, class e-peen and more common sense ultimately brings the raid to down more bosses in a night.
Chamual wrote:
Incidently, is there any website where you can build a talent spec and gear for a character and see what the stats would be? I would be interested to see what a properly specced warrior and tankadins stats are when equally geared (can the site include buffs aswell please, to see what the difference is raid buffed.. cheers!)
I quote this because I would love to know as well. CTprofiles used to have something that did this, but it has been unavailable for some time now. If anyone knows another site that you can do this with, please let us know :)
EDIT: I went to the site and apparently they are back up and running! In a beta phase right now, but gonna check it out anyway. Still, if anyone knows another/better site, please post.
Edited, Jan 13th 2008 7:44pm by Maulgak
Say what you like, paladins have character. Warriors were always a little bland for my tastes. Like pasta without the pasta sauce.
Quote:
Say what you like, paladins have character. Warriors were always a little bland for my tastes. Like pasta without the pasta sauce.
We've kicked more warriors from my guild than any other class and we're more cautious about bringing them in than anyone else. Too many are stuck in the Pre-TBC mentality of "I'm the MT and MT > All."
Chamual wrote:
Whats with all the tankadin hate in this thread? Where is the belief? I thought this was paladin forum?
I think paladins have it harder, in terms of basic stats for tanking. What I do beleive however is that a well played paladin tank brings more to the raid than a well played warrior tank.
I think paladins have it harder, in terms of basic stats for tanking. What I do beleive however is that a well played paladin tank brings more to the raid than a well played warrior tank.
Cool I've ben struggling! Tell me how to tank the spall-immune worms and the frelling siphoners and their mana-shield happy wranglers.
I've been struggling thinking that pallies can tank everything so please tell me the trick with these as I'm usually OOM or immune-useless.
Celcio wrote:
spall-immune worms
I've found those to be goofy enough on aggro that we don't even bother tanking em. Just let whomever hits them the hardest tank em. It's obviously not gonna be the clothies. Since they don't hit all that hard, it's really easy to just heal through it.
Celcio wrote:
the frelling siphoners and their mana-shield happy wranglers.
Have DPS go balls to the wall on the shield guy. Damage to the shield doesn't appear to generate threat. Be ready with a taunt for when he blinks. Try to get him down before the second blink. For the siphoners, just make sure that whomever can cleanse watches you carefully and cleanses the mana-siphon off of you.
Scholar
20 posts
I think Celcio wanted an answer from the dogmatist, not the pragmatist :)
oinkoinkoink wrote:
I think Celcio wanted an answer from the dogmatist, not the pragmatist :)
Probably.
Just have to be realistic about the limitations of the class/build in the raid setting. Great for multi tanking, good for trash, no so hawt for 1v1 boss encounters. Yes it is doable but you need more gear and heals than a War would.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
oinkoinkoink wrote:
I think Celcio wanted an answer from the dogmatist, not the pragmatist :)
Probably.
Yer kinda slow today, Poldy.
Maulgak wrote:
Chamual wrote:
Incidently, is there any website where you can build a talent spec and gear for a character and see what the stats would be? I would be interested to see what a properly specced warrior and tankadins stats are when equally geared (can the site include buffs aswell please, to see what the difference is raid buffed.. cheers!)
I quote this because I would love to know as well. CTprofiles used to have something that did this, but it has been unavailable for some time now. If anyone knows another site that you can do this with, please let us know :)
EDIT: I went to the site and apparently they are back up and running! In a beta phase right now, but gonna check it out anyway. Still, if anyone knows another/better site, please post.
Edited, Jan 13th 2008 7:44pm by Maulgak
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