Haven't really seen this topic brought up, apologies if I missed it...
Currently, my guild is mostly 50's and low 60's, with a couple at 70. For most of us, this is our first time in outlands and questing in there. We have intentions of eventually doing high level raids/instances (Kara, etc) once we get up to 70 and get geared up. Currently, I'm the guild's primary dedicated tank (currently lvl 58) with a few healers and a lot of dps classes. I've gotten that spot due to the fact that I'm pretty decent at it, and the me and the guildies I run instances with work well together. We have a 64 warrior also in the guild who is a r/l friend of the guild master, but he's arms spec and has no desire to take up main tanking roles.
We eventually plan on doing Kara and all that fun stuff. As it stands now, It's assumed that I'm gong to be the primary tank for it, just due to experience and the fact that I've proven myself to be reliable. I know it can be done from other pally tanks posting about their success in tanking Kara, though it definitely ain't easy.
But what about beyond Kara? I'm talking Grull, Hyjal, and BT. I am not so naive that I don't realize that eventually one comes to a point where no matter how good one's skill and gear, you'll hit a wall. Are they any prot pallys here that have done beyond Kara? If so, what was your role? Was main boss tanking left to the warriors/druids, or can a pally tank stand up to them as well? If not, is our role more off-tanking adds then?
I'm not making this post because I need someone to boost my ego. Our guild, myself included, emphasizes doing our part to help the team succeed. If me off tanking adds, enables our boss tank to down Illidian, then I am happy with that.
I plan on staying prot all the way, going holy just does not appeal to me, though we have a high level holy pally that loves it. I'm more looking for input as to what the role of a pally tank is in raids beyond Kara.
Thanks, and all comments/suggestions/insults are most welcome. :D
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Nowadays, I don't think I'm off base stating that pallies have successfully tanked every single boss in the game. Are they the best choice regardless of situation? Of course not. Skill and gear play a big role, but using the strength of each tanking class according to a particular situation is the mark of flexible and adaptive raid leadership.
The only thing which you can be utterly certain of is that no matter how you slice it, you won't remain the guild's only tank as soon as you start Kara. And it's probably advisable that the second tank be a druid or a warrior, in order to bring versatility to the table.
The only thing which you can be utterly certain of is that no matter how you slice it, you won't remain the guild's only tank as soon as you start Kara. And it's probably advisable that the second tank be a druid or a warrior, in order to bring versatility to the table.
Alastaironsiren wrote:
And it's probably advisable that the second tank be a druid or a warrior, in order to bring versatility to the table.
Tell me about it. For some reason, we have a huge influx of dps classes and very few tanks. We do have a feral druid still in low 50's that can be brought on to tank as well.
If we had one of each tanking class brought up to 70 (pally, warrior, and druid), I think that would be a good diverse combo of tanks to deal with anything.
Yup.. a Pally (main) tank can certainly handle encounters as you advance beyond Kara, straight through to the end. It means knowing your class well, taking advantage of all your abilities, a good regimen of consumables and the ability to time them almost as precisly as you time your GCD, and team-mates who know their classes equally well. Expect the DPS to ride very close, they need to in order to get their job done before everyone else (tank and healers) go OOM. Expect to play around with group composition within the raid until you find just the right set of members for each. This might mean you end up grouped with a bunch of casters inc. a shadow priest.
Honestly, these are all things that a raid using a Warrior tank should consider as well, but each decision will be much more apparent for a pally tank.
And then there are always situations that practically scream out "Go away, and come back when you have a Pally tank for this part!" It's been said, certain situations call for different methods.
Honestly, these are all things that a raid using a Warrior tank should consider as well, but each decision will be much more apparent for a pally tank.
And then there are always situations that practically scream out "Go away, and come back when you have a Pally tank for this part!" It's been said, certain situations call for different methods.
A protection paladin has successfully tanked everything in the game, even illidan. No, its not as easy as if a warrior did it, and I still think warriors and druids are better, but its possible. The higher raid you're in, the more skill is required to tank. As a paladin, you have to be even more skilled since things for you are not as easy. There aren't very many people that know how to play a protection paladin well enough to do everything, but you can set your hopes high.
Dilbrt wrote:
A protection paladin has successfully tanked everything in the game, even illidan. No, its not as easy as if a warrior did it, and I still think warriors and druids are better, but its possible. The higher raid you're in, the more skill is required to tank. As a paladin, you have to be even more skilled since things for you are not as easy. There aren't very many people that know how to play a protection paladin well enough to do everything, but you can set your hopes high.
Thanks, that's the kind of input I was looking for. I keep hearing about how pallys have tanked Prince a lot, but rarely anything beyond that. Maybe just so few people have gone beyond that point you don't hear about it as much.
As far as it being harder and requiring more skill to tank the big bosses with a pally, that's exactly what I'm looking for. If it was too easy, I wouldn't enjoy it as much as if I had to earn it ;)
hcddog wrote:
As far as it being harder and requiring more skill to tank the big bosses with a pally, that's exactly what I'm looking for. If it was too easy, I wouldn't enjoy it as much as if I had to earn it ;)
Anyone who tells you it's hard to tank bosses is just feeding you a line. Let's be honest. When it comes to tanking a boss, you holy shield every time it's up, consecrate when it's up, and judge/re-seal when those are up. That is pretty much it. If it's a slow attacking boss you can fit in an avenger's shield every now and then but with the cooldown, that's not exactly a time-filling event either. You're hitting about 5 buttons every 10 seconds.
It's very possible for pallies to main tank just about anything in the game. I believe there are still a few gimmick-based fights that don't work (i.e. Reliquary of Souls in BT needs spell reflect), and others will be more difficult (Maiden of Virtue's silence).
On Monday I brought my pally through Tempest Keep because we were light on tanks. I tanked during the Al'ar fight, during Void Reaver, and during the Kael event. I also did a significant amount of the trash tanking. It's all very possible to do.
I've recently started raiding with a guild (2 months or so), and am now always main tank in our weekly kara runs (3 groups), having tanked everything up to Prince successfully. The only reason we didn't down nightbane was we had a weekish group.
When it comes to Gruul and Voidwalker I am 3rd tank behind the guilds Warrior and Druid who are both slightly better geared. On Voidrever the other night, we were told to all race for aggro as rever does a knockback on the main tank that reduces aggro. I beat the other 2 for aggro every time and tanked him easily, it was only our dps getting hit by the orbs that wiped us (I was nearly the last one standing each time).
When I stand next to the warrior, fully raid buffed, he has about 1k more health than me and slightly better armour and def, but he does have better gear. I think a pally can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with a warrior now, the only difference is in style of tanking and differnt 'off' abilities (dps or healing).
When it comes to Gruul and Voidwalker I am 3rd tank behind the guilds Warrior and Druid who are both slightly better geared. On Voidrever the other night, we were told to all race for aggro as rever does a knockback on the main tank that reduces aggro. I beat the other 2 for aggro every time and tanked him easily, it was only our dps getting hit by the orbs that wiped us (I was nearly the last one standing each time).
When I stand next to the warrior, fully raid buffed, he has about 1k more health than me and slightly better armour and def, but he does have better gear. I think a pally can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with a warrior now, the only difference is in style of tanking and differnt 'off' abilities (dps or healing).
I tanked Olm the Summoner last night, does that count? My guild runs 2 feral druids, 2 prot warriors and an active prot pally for most events and we're farming every boss in T5 except FLK, Vashj and Kael (and technically HAS, who gives us trouble if people are retarded that night). Prot pallies are awesome for some things as main or off tanks. Leo, Morogrim, Hydross, HAS, A'lar, etc. but some things they're terrible at. Gruul and VR come to mind.
Paladins can tank pretty much everything, apart from RoS, Azgalor and Kazrogal.
I'm in a guild that has killed Illidan twice now, but I usually heal on bosses. Damn BT bosses ain't giving me them items I need. :(
Oh well, when I get 2-3 more pieces from BT, I'm hoping to get to try to tank Illidan. I've tanked the flames, now I lust to tank the big ************.
I'm in a guild that has killed Illidan twice now, but I usually heal on bosses. Damn BT bosses ain't giving me them items I need. :(
Oh well, when I get 2-3 more pieces from BT, I'm hoping to get to try to tank Illidan. I've tanked the flames, now I lust to tank the big ************.
Loki the Sly wrote:
I tanked Olm the Summoner last night, does that count? My guild runs 2 feral druids, 2 prot warriors and an active prot pally for most events and we're farming every boss in T5 except FLK, Vashj and Kael (and technically HAS, who gives us trouble if people are retarded that night). Prot pallies are awesome for some things as main or off tanks. Leo, Morogrim, Hydross, HAS, A'lar, etc. but some things they're terrible at. Gruul and VR come to mind.
Out of interest, why are Pally tanks so bad for Gruul and Void? I would like a shot at maintanking Gruul, and held Voidrever off the other tanks (including knockbacks) without taking much damage for our entire first run...
Chamual wrote:
I think a pally can easily stand shoulder to shoulder with a warrior now
Unless one of em's a dwarf.
oh come on you were all thinking it
Or the other's a Gnome.
Well unlike some people I didn't want to be the cause of nightmares about gnomes.
Hey if I get them I'm going to make sure everyone else gets them.
Share my torment!
Share my torment!
48 posts
Quote:
Nowadays, I don't think I'm off base stating that pallies have successfully tanked every single boss in the game.
We just downed Gruul for the first time, and with a prot pally as main tank. But i don't think a pally can tank Maiden of Virtue, because of the silencing aura arround her.
I have tanked Maiden
CapJack of the Seven Seas wrote:
Hey if I get them I'm going to make sure everyone else gets them.
Share my torment!
Share my torment!
Have I mentioned that my mage is a gnome? With pigtails. And a mean streak.
Lynyrd wrote:
We just downed Gruul for the first time, and with a prot pally as main tank. But i don't think a pally can tank Maiden of Virtue, because of the silencing aura arround her.
I have tanked her multiple times now. It takes timing, and some button mashing, but it's certainly doable.
Chamual wrote:
Loki the Sly wrote:
I tanked Olm the Summoner last night, does that count? My guild runs 2 feral druids, 2 prot warriors and an active prot pally for most events and we're farming every boss in T5 except FLK, Vashj and Kael (and technically HAS, who gives us trouble if people are retarded that night). Prot pallies are awesome for some things as main or off tanks. Leo, Morogrim, Hydross, HAS, A'lar, etc. but some things they're terrible at. Gruul and VR come to mind.
Out of interest, why are Pally tanks so bad for Gruul and Void? I would like a shot at maintanking Gruul, and held Voidrever off the other tanks (including knockbacks) without taking much damage for our entire first run...
The reason pallies are, um, less than optimal for Gruul is because of the silence. Silence means you can't cast Holy Shield. Any downtime of Holy Shield leaves you open for Crushing Blows. This is bad.
As for Void Reaver, pallies shine best if they go in best. If they go in second, they suffer from the same problem warriors suffer. There's not enough incoming damage to generate enough healing to give you the mana to generate threat.
As for the whole gnome/dwarf deal. I have a Gnome Warrior, and a Dwarf Pally, so you guys better be nice or you might lose your kneecaps.
Also during the knock back on Gruul is over he will still cream whoever has 2nd highest threat and is in melee range. So if a tank gets knocked out and that rogue has threat, he is one shotted. If you are undergeared and losing dps on Gruul you are going to have a hell of a time. A warrior can stance dance and charge back in if he gets thrown out, a prot pally is running his slow *** back in. Then as mentioned silence on a threat fight = absolutely horrible.
I also find on Fathom Lord that I just dont want a Prot Pally on FL, the Hunter, sure but a Warrior needs to be on the priest and I am not much of a fan of a prot pally on the Shammy. We have tried switching our Prot Pally around and though he is full t5 gear and very well played he just needs more heals to keep alive than a Warrior.
Lot of the other fights it boils down to Threat Per Second. A druid/war can put out more tps on a solo mob than a Prot pally. More threat put out means your dps can put out more damage without pulling aggro. A lot of the fights start getting enrage timers, or have dps checks so that extra 30-50 dps per person you can pump out without grabbing threat spread across 15 or so DPS classes makes a large difference in a 8 min fight.
I also find on Fathom Lord that I just dont want a Prot Pally on FL, the Hunter, sure but a Warrior needs to be on the priest and I am not much of a fan of a prot pally on the Shammy. We have tried switching our Prot Pally around and though he is full t5 gear and very well played he just needs more heals to keep alive than a Warrior.
Lot of the other fights it boils down to Threat Per Second. A druid/war can put out more tps on a solo mob than a Prot pally. More threat put out means your dps can put out more damage without pulling aggro. A lot of the fights start getting enrage timers, or have dps checks so that extra 30-50 dps per person you can pump out without grabbing threat spread across 15 or so DPS classes makes a large difference in a 8 min fight.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I honestly don't believe the statement that a warrior or druid can put out more threat on a single target than a paladin. In my guild I'm the only pally tank but fastest at building threat on a mob. If you pop wings, judge crusader, consecrate and fire your shield, you generate an enormous amount of threat in the first 2 seconds of the fight. As soon as the boss starts hitting you, he triggers 3 reflective spells on top of your normal threat output. Nothing can take him off you.
Admididly, we don't have a charge to pickup the boss when knocked back, but we do have the shield and judgements which work at range and provide enough threat to ensure the boss stays on you.
Threat generation is gimped when we are an offtank because we don't get hit, but if we are MTing, I think we are easily as good, if not better, than a warrior or druid at holding the boss on us. But like you said, a warrior has the same problem (less threat when not being hit), so it is hardly a paladin drawback.
Edited, Jan 12th 2008 7:26am by Chamual
Admididly, we don't have a charge to pickup the boss when knocked back, but we do have the shield and judgements which work at range and provide enough threat to ensure the boss stays on you.
Threat generation is gimped when we are an offtank because we don't get hit, but if we are MTing, I think we are easily as good, if not better, than a warrior or druid at holding the boss on us. But like you said, a warrior has the same problem (less threat when not being hit), so it is hardly a paladin drawback.
Edited, Jan 12th 2008 7:26am by Chamual
First 5 seconds of the fight don't count in a 10 min long encounter. He might shoot ahead for a couple seconds but a well played threat building warrior will win.
There really isn't any argument on this subject, even from prot pallies
There really isn't any argument on this subject, even from prot pallies
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Don't get me wrong, pally tanks are great.
We use one actively in our raids, there is a Pally tank in at BT guild on our server. There was a post a month or so back of one even MT'ing Illidan.
We use our Pally tank successfully on trash, he works quite well on birds in TK:Eye. He is great for picking up hunter and pet on FL, Murlocs on TW, birds off Al'ar, he does, trash summons from Solarian etc. My examples accentuate my point though, he is good for trash, and serves a purpose for dealing with adds on boss encounters but he is not a MT. Not for anything past a ten man.
A lot of high end raid guilds skip over them since it is easy to deal with encounters using existing raid structure. If they do bring one in they will only bring one in. Not much need for 2+ like you see with Prot wars or Bear druids.
We use one actively in our raids, there is a Pally tank in at BT guild on our server. There was a post a month or so back of one even MT'ing Illidan.
We use our Pally tank successfully on trash, he works quite well on birds in TK:Eye. He is great for picking up hunter and pet on FL, Murlocs on TW, birds off Al'ar, he does, trash summons from Solarian etc. My examples accentuate my point though, he is good for trash, and serves a purpose for dealing with adds on boss encounters but he is not a MT. Not for anything past a ten man.
A lot of high end raid guilds skip over them since it is easy to deal with encounters using existing raid structure. If they do bring one in they will only bring one in. Not much need for 2+ like you see with Prot wars or Bear druids.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
bodhisattva wrote:
First 5 seconds of the fight don't count in a 10 min long encounter. He might shoot ahead for a couple seconds but a well played threat building warrior will win.
There really isn't any argument on this subject, even from prot pallies
There really isn't any argument on this subject, even from prot pallies
The first 5 seconds of the fight do matter if the warrior can't get the mob\boss off you for the next 10 minutes of the fight. With constant mana regen from Spiritual attunment, there is no reason why a pally tank can't continue to fire max rank consecration every 8 seconds, shield every minute, and judge righteousness every cooldown for the duration of the fight. This is more than enough threat generation to hold the mob, unless you have a warrior with an ego problem that taunts the monster off you.
From my (admittedly limited) experience of 25man raids, pally tanks seem to get pushed off to the side as people are far more experienced with warrior or druid tanks and believe everything they read and hear that pallys can't tank the big bosses. I always find that people are completely surprised by how well a pally can tank anything that you ask it to (even bosses that silence, like maiden, are easy enough to tank with a pally).
The main problem you will have as a tankadin, is there are very few MT warriors in the game that would give up their spot to a tankadin :(
Wars got last stand to save the wipe - 'nuff said.
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