Very interesting article:
http://www.gameriot.com/blogs/World-of-Ming/SK-Gamings-New-ArenaPlayer-Stats-Reveals-A-Lot-About-Arena-Balance/
DISCLAIMER: Yes, it's Ming. Now once you're done pulling your hair out and chewing your own arms over your blatant hatred for him, actually look at the number posted. Use SK-Gaming on your own if you'd rather. I'm just glad he did all the work for me.
Class Representation over all 5 format in SK-100:
Warrior: 20%
Priest: 17%
Warlock: 14%
Druid: 14%
Rogue: 12%
Mage: 10%
Hunter: 5%
Paladin: 5%
Shaman: 3%
Read the article to understand what SK-100 is.
So even at the height of our overpoweredness - we're a mid level class nonetheless.
Most popular spec for those players:
Holy Paladin: 90.5%
Restoration Druid: 84.8%
WE Mage: 84%
MS Warrior: 80.8% (probably 100% if the spec list is long enough)
Marksman Hunter: 63.9%
Discipline Priest: 62.5%
Elemental Shaman: 50%
SL/SL Warlock: 47.7%
AR/Prep Rogue: 42.6%
42.6%
Not even half...
Top 2v2:
Warrior/Druid: 31.1%
Warlock/Druid: 18.9%
Rogue/Priest: 8.3%
Rogue/Warlock: 6.8%
Priest/Warlock: 5.3%
Rogue/Druid: 4.5%
Top 3v3:
Rogue/Priest/Mage: 20%
Warrior/Warlock/Druid: 10%
Warrior/Priest/Druid: 8.3%
Rogue/Warlock/Druid: 6.7%
Rogue/Priest/Warlock: 5.8%
Warrior/Shaman/Druid: 3.3%
While Rogue team dominate 3v3, their domination isn't anywhere close to Druid's domination of 2v2.
And yeah, I wasn't kidding when I made my druid QQ thread a few weeks ago :P THEY'RE EVERYWHERE! GET EM OFF ME!!!
Top 5v5:
Rogue are non-existant. That's not to say some rogues don't get top rating, but there isn't enough top comp with rogue in there to make the top 5 (or even 10) comp make up.
This means 3 things for me...
Good News: Well, boys and girls, the nerf might not be that big of one after all, since it turns out several rogue are being successful without HARP.
Bad News: It's still a nerf to class that quite frankly, doesn't deserve it. We're considered overpowered right now... why? Because we're capable of owning in 3v3 and are non-factor everywhere else?
WTF moment: So... why is HARP getting nerfed again? Everyone's specing into it? Ruuh?
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 6:00pm by Tyrandor
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Rogue representation - HARP not that big?Follow
paladin... wha happen?
edit: and this info infuriates me btw. thank you.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 2:59pm by KTurner
edit: and this info infuriates me btw. thank you.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 2:59pm by KTurner
The paladin's weakness to CC, mana burn and lack of ability that allow him to get out of combat mean he's more or less out of any serious 2v2 and 3v3 action.
The only place where they shine is 5v5, and that kill their SK-100 rating.
The only place where they shine is 5v5, and that kill their SK-100 rating.
While I appreciate your message of hope, I'm going to rain on your parade.
MS Warriors read as 80% of all Warriors above 2000. Not 100%. 80%.
...no. Hell no, no, and a thousand times no. That's a pretty immediate red flag; do you really think Warriors do high-end Arenas without MS? I mean, _really_? You can make the argument for a lot of different specs for other classes, but a Warrior without MS is just awful.
This means that they do something else when they're not arena-ing. What in the world makes you think that Rogues who are 0/31/30 to Arena with aren't a different spec to PvE with?
MS Warriors read as 80% of all Warriors above 2000. Not 100%. 80%.
...no. Hell no, no, and a thousand times no. That's a pretty immediate red flag; do you really think Warriors do high-end Arenas without MS? I mean, _really_? You can make the argument for a lot of different specs for other classes, but a Warrior without MS is just awful.
This means that they do something else when they're not arena-ing. What in the world makes you think that Rogues who are 0/31/30 to Arena with aren't a different spec to PvE with?
hmm my edit didnt take. anyway, this info infuriates me. How you can look at these statistics, which are fairly concrete, and then nerf rogues is beyond me. How you can have a class like warriors sitting at the top like that, with such incredible representation, with 1 spec that everyone specs and then make the claims blizzard did about their reasoning behind nerfing HARP... i just dunno what to say. It's so freaking obvious blizzard is in love with their warriors. They get untouched and i have to sit here and figure out just wtf im supposed to do with a spec now.
edit:
Thats true RP. But looking at the actual spec make up the other specs that were less represented were mut, premed/SF and 5.9% 41 combat. Im really not sure but i dont think mut, premed/SF are pve raid specs. http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/all/all/rogue/all/all/
edit:2 hmm ratedowns already flying, guess im done posting here.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 3:20pm by KTurner
edit:
Thats true RP. But looking at the actual spec make up the other specs that were less represented were mut, premed/SF and 5.9% 41 combat. Im really not sure but i dont think mut, premed/SF are pve raid specs. http://www.sk-gaming.com/arena/all/all/rogue/all/all/
edit:2 hmm ratedowns already flying, guess im done posting here.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 3:20pm by KTurner
Quote:
MS Warriors read as 80% of all Warriors above 2000. Not 100%. 80%.
...no. Hell no, no, and a thousand times no. That's a pretty immediate red flag; do you really think Warriors do high-end Arenas without MS? I mean, _really_? You can make the argument for a lot of different specs for other classes, but a Warrior without MS is just awful.
This means that they do something else when they're not arena-ing. What in the world makes you think that Rogues who are 0/31/30 to Arena with aren't a different spec to PvE with?
...no. Hell no, no, and a thousand times no. That's a pretty immediate red flag; do you really think Warriors do high-end Arenas without MS? I mean, _really_? You can make the argument for a lot of different specs for other classes, but a Warrior without MS is just awful.
This means that they do something else when they're not arena-ing. What in the world makes you think that Rogues who are 0/31/30 to Arena with aren't a different spec to PvE with?
Simple logic dictate however, that roughly the same number of people would spec out of thier pvp spec for pve for every class. Even healers don't pve and pvp with the same healing spec (except maybe for paladin).
I'll also remind you that HARP is actually not that bad for pve. Certainly better then Arms. So it's logical to assume the % of rogue to spec out of HARP to pve is smaller then the % of Warriors that spec out of Arms to do the same.
Then factor in that quite a few of the other spec listed are not-pve spec (As Kturner pointed out)...
The point is that even thought the numbers might very well be skewed, HARP is nowhere as big as Blizzard claimed.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 6:22pm by Tyrandor
Yeah... the thing is, "MS Warrior" is a much more viable raid spec than 0/31/30 is, but the specifics of the spec are quite different compared to a PvP spec. That should add another 20% or so to the numbers at absolute worst. I'm also curious as to how this data was collected, given that the US Armory has been working sporadically at best since before Christmas.
It's funny how it's always a warrior player telling us the pvp balance is fine ;). I expect quor to drop by and tell us how an HARP Rogue solo'd his 5s any minute now.
Now don't get me wrong - Blizzard is a great company and they made an awesome game. I wouldn't get so worked up over it if I didn't actually like it.
But you've got to wonder about their train of thought at time. You also have to wonder about their apparent lack of transparency...
First, it was 'All the rogue are going HARP' - which is not true. We have Mutilate, Combat and even some ShS rogue doing good. Then it was 'Hemo is much more powerful then we expected' - so why then are we not doing any better in Arena then in the previous season?
I mean, they say 5v5 is the 'most' or 'only' balanced bracket. 2v2 and 3v3 are there 'just for fun'.
Yet the recent changes they've made have buffed Priests (Already an extremely powerful 5v5 class in S1 and S2!), Druids (Which admitedly, suck in 5v5) and nerfed Rogue (sucks in 5v5).
If you go with the optic that '5v5 are what matters!' then I can understand the buff to druid, even thought ultimately it didn't help them in 5s and just made them into monsters in 2s - still, the logic is sound... but the buff to priest and nerf to rogue makes very little sense.
All the while, the class that has dominated 5v5 through all 3 season (so far) remain mostly untouched or with token nerfs.
So it's obvious Blizzard is happy with the role warriors have in the Arena. But it'd be nice to be able to sit down with the Blizzard folks and actually hear out what's their plan for the rest of us mortal who didn't click on that little sword icon at character creation. You certainly can't blame us for having any idea where Blizzard is going with their current plan for balance.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 7:26pm by Tyrandor
Now don't get me wrong - Blizzard is a great company and they made an awesome game. I wouldn't get so worked up over it if I didn't actually like it.
But you've got to wonder about their train of thought at time. You also have to wonder about their apparent lack of transparency...
First, it was 'All the rogue are going HARP' - which is not true. We have Mutilate, Combat and even some ShS rogue doing good. Then it was 'Hemo is much more powerful then we expected' - so why then are we not doing any better in Arena then in the previous season?
I mean, they say 5v5 is the 'most' or 'only' balanced bracket. 2v2 and 3v3 are there 'just for fun'.
Yet the recent changes they've made have buffed Priests (Already an extremely powerful 5v5 class in S1 and S2!), Druids (Which admitedly, suck in 5v5) and nerfed Rogue (sucks in 5v5).
If you go with the optic that '5v5 are what matters!' then I can understand the buff to druid, even thought ultimately it didn't help them in 5s and just made them into monsters in 2s - still, the logic is sound... but the buff to priest and nerf to rogue makes very little sense.
All the while, the class that has dominated 5v5 through all 3 season (so far) remain mostly untouched or with token nerfs.
So it's obvious Blizzard is happy with the role warriors have in the Arena. But it'd be nice to be able to sit down with the Blizzard folks and actually hear out what's their plan for the rest of us mortal who didn't click on that little sword icon at character creation. You certainly can't blame us for having any idea where Blizzard is going with their current plan for balance.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 7:26pm by Tyrandor
Quote:
It's funny how it's always a warrior player telling us the pvp balance is fine ;). I expect quor to drop by and tell us how an HARP Rogue solo'd his 5s any minute now.
Please point to the place where I said PvP balance is fine. What? I didn't? I only said that the methodology of this study sucks? Why, that's plumb amazin'.
Quote:
All the while, the class that has dominated 5v5 through all 3 season (so far) remain mostly untouched or with token nerfs.
So it's obvious Blizzard is happy with the role warriors have in the Arena. But it'd be nice to be able to sit down with the Blizzard folks and actually hear out what's their plan for the rest of us mortal who didn't click on that little sword icon at character creation. You certainly can't blame us for having any idea where Blizzard is going with their current plan for balance.
Stop playing the victim for two seconds and try actually thinking, Tabitha. It'll do you wonders.
Sorry RP... but saying it's wrong to complain while you're looking down at us from the highest, warrior-made hill is... foolish at best.
I'd have to agree with you Tyr.
And for originalities' sake, I must say:
The rogue's class icon is a farking dagger, for crying out loud!
Quote:
It's funny how it's always a warrior player telling us the pvp balance is fine ;). I expect quor to drop by and tell us how an HARP Rogue solo'd his 5s any minute now.
I'd have to agree with you Tyr.
And for originalities' sake, I must say:
The rogue's class icon is a farking dagger, for crying out loud!
I see more rogues flat out refuse to use maces or spec AR/prep even in it's prime. More so then other cookie cutter specs. I think rogues held onto their daggers much longer then other classes, basking in the glory days?
I still don't trust statistic sites fully. Some things make sense though, and I think overall thats fairly accurate, but I doubt its perfect.
Rogues also have far more above average PVP specs then most classes, but none that are THE spec. Kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. AR/prep was so short lived, and some people get extremely used to their current spec. So of course not every rogue respec'd the day that patch hit.
Also not every player follows ming, o-boards or other forums religiously. Given lots of people are resistant to change, and how quick that spec went up (2.3), then back down (2.3.2) it definately doesn't surprise me you're not seeing 100% of rogues going AR/prep.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 8:43pm by mikelolol
I still don't trust statistic sites fully. Some things make sense though, and I think overall thats fairly accurate, but I doubt its perfect.
Rogues also have far more above average PVP specs then most classes, but none that are THE spec. Kind of a jack of all trades, master of none. AR/prep was so short lived, and some people get extremely used to their current spec. So of course not every rogue respec'd the day that patch hit.
Also not every player follows ming, o-boards or other forums religiously. Given lots of people are resistant to change, and how quick that spec went up (2.3), then back down (2.3.2) it definately doesn't surprise me you're not seeing 100% of rogues going AR/prep.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 8:43pm by mikelolol
You're right, you haven't said that it's fine.
We'll see just how widely different the result will be once the Armory is back up (supposedly, today). While HARP might end up being more popular, I doubt class balance and representation will change a great deal.
That being said, how about instead of being smug, you actually tell me your view on this then? Come to think of it, I don't remember I've ever reading your actual opinion about the current situation of arena, pvp and class balance. You're usually quite happy with raining on people's parade when they cry imbalance, while yourself never saying if it is balanced or not. One then assume that you believe it's fine... only to be told you didn't say that when called upon it.
It's quite easy to stand back and just tell people they are wrong and be condescending, when you never get your feet wet and say what you're actually thinking.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 8:50pm by Tyrandor
We'll see just how widely different the result will be once the Armory is back up (supposedly, today). While HARP might end up being more popular, I doubt class balance and representation will change a great deal.
That being said, how about instead of being smug, you actually tell me your view on this then? Come to think of it, I don't remember I've ever reading your actual opinion about the current situation of arena, pvp and class balance. You're usually quite happy with raining on people's parade when they cry imbalance, while yourself never saying if it is balanced or not. One then assume that you believe it's fine... only to be told you didn't say that when called upon it.
It's quite easy to stand back and just tell people they are wrong and be condescending, when you never get your feet wet and say what you're actually thinking.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 8:50pm by Tyrandor
Quote:
You're right, you haven't said that it's fine.
<snip>
That being said, how about instead of being smug, you actually tell me your view on this then? Come to think of it, I don't remember I've ever reading your actual opinion about the current situation of arena, pvp and class balance. You're usually quite happy with raining on people's parade when they cry imbalance, while yourself never saying if it is balanced or not. One then assume that you believe it's fine... only to be told you didn't say that when called upon it.
It's quite easy to stand back and just tell people they are wrong and be condescending, when you never get your feet wet and say what you're actually thinking. icon
<snip>
That being said, how about instead of being smug, you actually tell me your view on this then? Come to think of it, I don't remember I've ever reading your actual opinion about the current situation of arena, pvp and class balance. You're usually quite happy with raining on people's parade when they cry imbalance, while yourself never saying if it is balanced or not. One then assume that you believe it's fine... only to be told you didn't say that when called upon it.
It's quite easy to stand back and just tell people they are wrong and be condescending, when you never get your feet wet and say what you're actually thinking. icon
Smug and condescending is what I do best after all, but I'll reiterate what I _have_ said elsewhere.
I think Rogue need more help in 5v5, but HARP is not the way to do it; it's too strong in smaller arenas (comparatively speaking) and not enough to make a difference in 5v5. I think the Druid changes were a mistake for the same reason - they're still not going to be really ideal in larger arenas, but it's OP as hell in 2v2 and 3v3.
The main reason HARP was nerfed was because of the 3v3 Tournament a bit after 2.3 came out where HARP absolutely dominated, and a massive wave of Rogues specced it. I'll be curious to see what the updated numbers are, but I'd imagine that more people will be HARP... or would be, if they didn't want to have to learn a new spec when 2.3.2 hit. I'd imagine that suppressing the number of people specced for it quite a bit.
The main gist of the post was that;
Quote:
Good News: Well, boys and girls, the nerf might not be that big of one after all, since it turns out several rogue are being successful without HARP.
...not so much.
Warriors are overpowered, that's just the way the class is made. Fighting this is like trying to fight the rain.
I mean all the data is there, in plain sight. If a game is truly balanced, then you would expect to see equal representation from all classes. Warriors are nearly twice as represented as rogues are, and nearly seven times as represented as shaman. The game is not balanced and will never be.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 9:43pm by Shaolinz
I mean all the data is there, in plain sight. If a game is truly balanced, then you would expect to see equal representation from all classes. Warriors are nearly twice as represented as rogues are, and nearly seven times as represented as shaman. The game is not balanced and will never be.
Edited, Jan 7th 2008 9:43pm by Shaolinz
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