I have been a warrior in WOW for 2 years. Def 490, good dodge, great stam, poor dps.... yes I am a prot warrior. I have spent that past month as fury in pvp. I see the majority of the warriors on my server with the 2h sword from the PVP honor vendor, this leads me to the question.
With the onset of Pallies, their ability to bubble, heal, and continue the battle. With the never ending stam of the druid bear... who is the MT now?
This sounds defeatist, but my warrior has been at the front of every battle since Scarlet Monastery and the Caverns. The battles in the fiery pits of Molten Core were epic. We warriors lead a vary honorable class now we seem to be competing against clothies and not faring vary well.
What is our job, our advantage, our calling?
Do we just roll a bubble boy and move on?
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Warrior Job? Pally. Druid. Who's the tank?Follow
Foxmaster wrote:
What is our job, our advantage, our calling?
Do we just roll a bubble boy and move on?
Do we just roll a bubble boy and move on?
A bit of misinformation in here. First off, the vast majority of guilds still use a warrior as their main raid tank. All tank specs are viable in different roles, though, and can all perform in any 5-man content.
However, with the "bubble boys", there's a lot you have wrong. First off, any pally that bubbles while tanking loses all aggro and, well, let's just say that's not a good thing. Second is healing. Any spell with a cast time has your character drop to 0 block, dodge and parry chances while casting. In other words, if you try to tank, and heal yourself while tanking, you're not going to succeed.
As it is, though, people interested in tanking are in short supply. I don't think you're all that likely to ever hear "oh, sorry, we don't want you as our tank, we want this other class more" in a group. You needn't get so concerned about it.
warriors have the best damage mitigation.
Every tank has his pro's and con's.
As Oakenwrath mentioned warriors have the best damage mitigation. We can quite easily acquire 30% avoidance add our medium amount of armor and the possibility of being immune to crushing blows (use of shield block) and u got yourself a very nice damage reduction.
Druids have a lot of stamina and armor precisely because their damage mitigation sucks for the rest. Ofcourse they have their dodge but that still will be 10% less then the avoidance of a warrior. Furthermore they can not be immune to crushing blows. And with crushing blows of 5k (maiden for instance) you really need that 4k more hp then a warrior.
Tbh my knowledge of tankadins is quite low. The best pro i can say about Pallies is that they outshine in threat generation on multiple mobs. Who needs thunderclap when you have way better aoe spells.
As Oakenwrath mentioned warriors have the best damage mitigation. We can quite easily acquire 30% avoidance add our medium amount of armor and the possibility of being immune to crushing blows (use of shield block) and u got yourself a very nice damage reduction.
Druids have a lot of stamina and armor precisely because their damage mitigation sucks for the rest. Ofcourse they have their dodge but that still will be 10% less then the avoidance of a warrior. Furthermore they can not be immune to crushing blows. And with crushing blows of 5k (maiden for instance) you really need that 4k more hp then a warrior.
Tbh my knowledge of tankadins is quite low. The best pro i can say about Pallies is that they outshine in threat generation on multiple mobs. Who needs thunderclap when you have way better aoe spells.
From what I have seen while playing the game is that all are acceptable MT's come endgame and for different reasons. My first guild we were warrior tank's thru and thru with a druid OT on rare occasions. The guild I am in now has a vast array of Paladin, Druid and Warrior tanks and we normally have 2/3 on every raid we do.
For instance, it was easier for our warrior tanks to get the NR and FR for Hydross in SSC, yet we still had a Druid who picked up NR gear as well. For Leo the Blind we have a paly tank him in normal form and a druid tank him in Demon form. On certain nights where the paly can't be there, we have a warrior tank. For the trash mobs in Mount Hyjal we have the Tankadin on the trash for AoE dmg and the Warrior and Druid on the Bosses.
I think limiting yourself to one class of tank is a little counter productive and can hinder progression or make it very hard to progress. We have an ******* of tanks and use them on every raid due to their versatility. So don't get down on urself because you can't tank certain environmental situations like a paladin or a druid, because in areas they're not good at you prevail and vice versa. I think for 5mans its anyones game to tank, in 25 mans, having a nice mix of all three serves the raid quite nicely.
For instance, it was easier for our warrior tanks to get the NR and FR for Hydross in SSC, yet we still had a Druid who picked up NR gear as well. For Leo the Blind we have a paly tank him in normal form and a druid tank him in Demon form. On certain nights where the paly can't be there, we have a warrior tank. For the trash mobs in Mount Hyjal we have the Tankadin on the trash for AoE dmg and the Warrior and Druid on the Bosses.
I think limiting yourself to one class of tank is a little counter productive and can hinder progression or make it very hard to progress. We have an ******* of tanks and use them on every raid due to their versatility. So don't get down on urself because you can't tank certain environmental situations like a paladin or a druid, because in areas they're not good at you prevail and vice versa. I think for 5mans its anyones game to tank, in 25 mans, having a nice mix of all three serves the raid quite nicely.
4 posts
Excellent points by all.
The mitigation point really hit home and the info about pallies loosing hate when they bubble was news to me.
The mitigation point really hit home and the info about pallies loosing hate when they bubble was news to me.
Foxmaster wrote:
I have spent that past month as fury in pvp. I see the majority of the warriors on my server with the 2h sword from the PVP honor vendor, this leads me to the question.
Keep in mind too that a lot of warriors do Arena and spec for MS, so it makes sense they'd pick up a PVP reward to let them do this well ... even if they respec to tank later in the week. Don't assume that just because they're running around IF with a 2H that they don't have a sword and board stashed somewhere else.
Also, sadly, a lot of warriors aren't great at tanking and don't enjoy tanking.
There is competition among different tanks, which is a good thing ... but Warrior is definitely not out of a job. Most "first kills" in raids seem to happen with a warrior tank -- because of mitigation and "Oh shit!" buttons.
Problem with Tankadins is they require Mana to hold aggro. Once they are OOM, they lose most of their Hate building abilities, where as a warrior the more they hit /get hit the more Rage they generate and the more Threat they can pump out. Druids are the same but I personally only tanked 2 or 3 times with my druid before getting frustrated.
Also at lower levels while tanking if your group doesn't give you time to check buffs and everything you might lose your Righteous fury half way through a fight and not notice it until you get that add you can't seem to gain aggro of.
As far as tanking is concerned. I've tanked on all 3 classes and Warriors are by far the most fun and the easiest to do. The pali comes in a close second and I quit tanking on my druid and started healing because its hard for me to tank that way.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 12:28pm by HitashLevat
Also at lower levels while tanking if your group doesn't give you time to check buffs and everything you might lose your Righteous fury half way through a fight and not notice it until you get that add you can't seem to gain aggro of.
As far as tanking is concerned. I've tanked on all 3 classes and Warriors are by far the most fun and the easiest to do. The pali comes in a close second and I quit tanking on my druid and started healing because its hard for me to tank that way.
Edited, Jan 8th 2008 12:28pm by HitashLevat
I do find tanking with a warrior pretty easy. I'm an arms warrior but I can tank with ease as long as the otheres don't aggro too much. I tanked herioc ramparts and blood furnace and got tons of compliments. We made it all the way every attempt with no wipe. Of course it was a combination of good healer and DPS players who didn't aggro too damn much. Anytime I've ever been in a group where there was a paladin or druid tanking I was always asked to tank instead. Even when a pally claimed he would be better at DPS than me.
If you spam heals on the tankadin he'll gain the mana to keep his threat creating abilities up and going. Also a spriest can help with mana regen as well. If I am wrong about the spamming heals on the tankadin then my guild needs to reconsider that when we do the AoE mobs in Mount Hyjal then...
Paladins running out of mana is a nonissue. They receive mana back when they get healed.
Here's my look on it:
Warrior for raid bosses
Druid for offtank
Paladin for 5-mans
Of course, take what you can get. I hope to MT a raid or two on my Druid.
Here's my look on it:
Warrior for raid bosses
Druid for offtank
Paladin for 5-mans
Of course, take what you can get. I hope to MT a raid or two on my Druid.
If you're running OOM as a paladin tank you either:
(1) Are overgeared for what you're tanking,
(2) Need to reassess your ability usage, or
(3) Are fighting a mob that uses Mana Burn :(
Then you grouped with crappy tanks. Then again, my rogue did about 250% of the damage of the last DPS warrior he grouped with ... (he was running the meter, not me).*
Skill > Class.
Until you get really hardcore; then class matters too.
*No, this does not mean that I would out-DPS a good warrior by that margin, or at all.**
**I've run into very few good warriors in PUGs.
(1) Are overgeared for what you're tanking,
(2) Need to reassess your ability usage, or
(3) Are fighting a mob that uses Mana Burn :(
Flaminroids wrote:
Anytime I've ever been in a group where there was a paladin or druid tanking I was always asked to tank instead. Even when a pally claimed he would be better at DPS than me.
Then you grouped with crappy tanks. Then again, my rogue did about 250% of the damage of the last DPS warrior he grouped with ... (he was running the meter, not me).*
Skill > Class.
Until you get really hardcore; then class matters too.
*No, this does not mean that I would out-DPS a good warrior by that margin, or at all.**
**I've run into very few good warriors in PUGs.
Druids, paladins, and warriors all have places where they're viable as tanks. My friend's guild wants me to make a druid and PL it to 70 so they can have a druid OT in kara. Not MT, but OT. Why? Druids do that best!
Once you hit end-game, warriors are easier to gear up for raids (paladins have a much harder time getting uncrushable, whereas for warriors it's 490 def + shield block). Warriors also have a ton of abilities related to tanking, which means both that it's not very simple, but once you master it I believe the warrior is best for MTing raids. Note that "best" isn't by a huge margin.
Paladins have the AoE threat generation down, but overall that isn't too helpful on boss fights, or fights where you need a lot of CC because extra adds means more incoming DPS than HPS. However, a paladin can still hold threat, once geared can still mitigate damage, and gets back a ton of mana for getting healed. Druids have insane armor and HP, but they are not going to be immune to crushing blows unless they're immune to physical attacks. Druids would also pwn on bosses that cannot crush, if I may say so myself.
Overall, I agree with the druid OT, pally trash, warrior boss method. Unless the trash can silence, then it's druid all the way.
Once you hit end-game, warriors are easier to gear up for raids (paladins have a much harder time getting uncrushable, whereas for warriors it's 490 def + shield block). Warriors also have a ton of abilities related to tanking, which means both that it's not very simple, but once you master it I believe the warrior is best for MTing raids. Note that "best" isn't by a huge margin.
Paladins have the AoE threat generation down, but overall that isn't too helpful on boss fights, or fights where you need a lot of CC because extra adds means more incoming DPS than HPS. However, a paladin can still hold threat, once geared can still mitigate damage, and gets back a ton of mana for getting healed. Druids have insane armor and HP, but they are not going to be immune to crushing blows unless they're immune to physical attacks. Druids would also pwn on bosses that cannot crush, if I may say so myself.
Overall, I agree with the druid OT, pally trash, warrior boss method. Unless the trash can silence, then it's druid all the way.
In our guild we have 3 kara teams. The A-team(lol) has a Warrior MT and a drood OT/DPS. It works great. the warrior tanks it all away, untill we need a second tank. Then our drood steps in and tanks aswell. on our second karateam we have a pally and a warr tanking. works great. the pally is the MT and the warr is the OT. On the third karateam we roll two warriors as tanks. works smooth every time on all the teams...
As far as I can see, there is no difference in whos tanking, they all do a great job! As mentioned earlier, the warrior has a few "oh sh*t" buttons, as chall shout and last stand, which makes it somewhat easier for him, but the drood and pally has their "Oh sh*t" buttons too. belive me =D
so, as far as tanking goes, a warrior will never without jobs!
Edited, Jan 9th 2008 1:56pm by Sesseth
As far as I can see, there is no difference in whos tanking, they all do a great job! As mentioned earlier, the warrior has a few "oh sh*t" buttons, as chall shout and last stand, which makes it somewhat easier for him, but the drood and pally has their "Oh sh*t" buttons too. belive me =D
so, as far as tanking goes, a warrior will never without jobs!
Edited, Jan 9th 2008 1:56pm by Sesseth
warriors. Overall average to good choice for tanking. no crushing blows. fear breaks.
Druids. can't push crushing blows off table, highest TTL. no fear breaks.
paladin. lower hp pool (ttl), very effective threat generation. no crushing blows. self heal (lay on hands). hard to fear break.
wars tend to have MT positions due to having very few situations where they can't tank. some fights (fights where the tank is polymorphed for example.) are just plain impossible or too ridiculous for a war to tank.
baars are amazing at tanking for one simple reason, superior TTL and generally decent threat. but they can't push crushing blows with block off their attack table, they don't take very consistent damage. which if they chain avoid attacks they get very little rage from auto attacks, and have a hard time holding threat (which is also true for other tanks, but druids tend to have higher straight avoidance.).
pali's are very good at holding a group of mobs attention. they are very efficient at threat building, since they tps from blocking (+shield spike ftw). they tend to have lower hp than wars or baars. since pali priority tank gear has more stats to divide amongts. itemization can be hard. wars will ***** about pali's rolling on their gear often.
Druids. can't push crushing blows off table, highest TTL. no fear breaks.
paladin. lower hp pool (ttl), very effective threat generation. no crushing blows. self heal (lay on hands). hard to fear break.
wars tend to have MT positions due to having very few situations where they can't tank. some fights (fights where the tank is polymorphed for example.) are just plain impossible or too ridiculous for a war to tank.
baars are amazing at tanking for one simple reason, superior TTL and generally decent threat. but they can't push crushing blows with block off their attack table, they don't take very consistent damage. which if they chain avoid attacks they get very little rage from auto attacks, and have a hard time holding threat (which is also true for other tanks, but druids tend to have higher straight avoidance.).
pali's are very good at holding a group of mobs attention. they are very efficient at threat building, since they tps from blocking (+shield spike ftw). they tend to have lower hp than wars or baars. since pali priority tank gear has more stats to divide amongts. itemization can be hard. wars will ***** about pali's rolling on their gear often.
I'm sorry for the nubbish question, but what is TTL? Time to live?
48 posts
IMO warriors will always be the MT for end-game. As oakenwrath said, "warriors have the best damage mitigation. While pallies are great for 5 mans because of the way the hold aggro with a few mobs, You will see only a handful of pallies being used as a MT for 25 mans. We do however, still serve as great OT's. And as said before, there is always a need for tanks, no matter what class they are. The only exception is when the huntard says my pet can tank we don't need a fifth person. That cat can never hold aggro or tank :)
As a druid tank, I can happily tell you that your position is safe. I have main-tanked all of Karazhan except Nightbane and we have no problem. The main difference is that warriors have all the other little tricks, from interrupts & fear stance-dancing to all the emergency buttons like last stand & shield wall, pots & healthstones which us druids still can't use in forms :(
All of us have our own advantages & disadvantages. Druids as a rule can generate more threat than a smilarly geared warrior and Pally's are the kings of AOE tanking. Blizzard have done a really good job of balancing the tanks while making them significantly different.
All of us have our own advantages & disadvantages. Druids as a rule can generate more threat than a smilarly geared warrior and Pally's are the kings of AOE tanking. Blizzard have done a really good job of balancing the tanks while making them significantly different.
ttl is time to live yes.
it's a reference to armor and hp being directly related to how long it takes you to die.
Heres a good article on it. but they call it Effective Health too. So yeah...
it's a reference to armor and hp being directly related to how long it takes you to die.
Heres a good article on it. but they call it Effective Health too. So yeah...
Granted that warriors have *slightly* better damage mitigation than pallies, I think people are putting way too much weight into that.
Paladins have a more reliable way of becoming uncrushable (though it takes more work to get there) and have nearly the same mitigation as a warrior. Against weaker mobs, they have nearly 30% more damage mitigation than a warrior on average.
Warriors shine as raid main tanks because they have slightly better mitigation than pallies, and VASTLY better mitigation than druids. They have a slight (but much more significant than their mitigation lead) HP lead on pallies. Most importantly, they have the abilities to lock aggro on 1 or 2 mobs at a time. They have lots of abilities that force enemies to target them, can't be silenced or mana-burned, and continually replenish their rage (and thus threat-building ability) throughout a long fight.
The biggest disadvantage of a druid is that they can't block or parry. This means that they'll be taking more hits, and they can't become un-crushable. Luckily, they have the HP to keep up with the hits (to an extent). Healers will go OOM quicker healing a Druid tank though, so the DPS better take every advantage of their ability to lock a single target on them like glue.
As said, pallies running OOM is a non-issue in progression encounters. They frontload a lot of threat, then maintain it a little slower than a warrior. The DPS can start right away, but can't push as hard. Big disadvantage against big bosses that take a while to kill, but everyone playing smart is enough to get by it.
The point? Each class is a viable tank. They are all useful in certain encounters, and with the right techniques they can all handle progession.
Paladins have a more reliable way of becoming uncrushable (though it takes more work to get there) and have nearly the same mitigation as a warrior. Against weaker mobs, they have nearly 30% more damage mitigation than a warrior on average.
Warriors shine as raid main tanks because they have slightly better mitigation than pallies, and VASTLY better mitigation than druids. They have a slight (but much more significant than their mitigation lead) HP lead on pallies. Most importantly, they have the abilities to lock aggro on 1 or 2 mobs at a time. They have lots of abilities that force enemies to target them, can't be silenced or mana-burned, and continually replenish their rage (and thus threat-building ability) throughout a long fight.
The biggest disadvantage of a druid is that they can't block or parry. This means that they'll be taking more hits, and they can't become un-crushable. Luckily, they have the HP to keep up with the hits (to an extent). Healers will go OOM quicker healing a Druid tank though, so the DPS better take every advantage of their ability to lock a single target on them like glue.
As said, pallies running OOM is a non-issue in progression encounters. They frontload a lot of threat, then maintain it a little slower than a warrior. The DPS can start right away, but can't push as hard. Big disadvantage against big bosses that take a while to kill, but everyone playing smart is enough to get by it.
The point? Each class is a viable tank. They are all useful in certain encounters, and with the right techniques they can all handle progession.
druids have AMAZING mitigation. have you seen what druids armor values and hp values are?
mitigation =/= avoidance
they can CAP on armor values.
so what do you mean by druids not having mitigation?
warriors itemization is better than pali's for tanking.
their are fewer stats to focus on to tank effectively as a warrior than a pali. spell damage and int are on quite a bit of pali tank gear. so stamina and other avoidance stats suffer.
warriors with 490 defense and 11 points in prot become uncrushable. So... i'm unsure what you mean by this.
are you forgetting that warriors also get a flat 10% reduction to incoming damage all the time?
mitigation =/= avoidance
they can CAP on armor values.
so what do you mean by druids not having mitigation?
warriors itemization is better than pali's for tanking.
their are fewer stats to focus on to tank effectively as a warrior than a pali. spell damage and int are on quite a bit of pali tank gear. so stamina and other avoidance stats suffer.
warriors with 490 defense and 11 points in prot become uncrushable. So... i'm unsure what you mean by this.
are you forgetting that warriors also get a flat 10% reduction to incoming damage all the time?
Druids have great armor yes.. but they take bigger hits. High armor + high health = TONS of effective health, but each hit they take is bigger, and crushing blows factor in as well.
You're right, mitigation != avoidance -- but beyond all the math the best way to measure real, effective mitigation is by the pure ammount of damage that you take per damaging hit. Druids just take more.
Effective health != mitigation either.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 1:49pm by Losie
You're right, mitigation != avoidance -- but beyond all the math the best way to measure real, effective mitigation is by the pure ammount of damage that you take per damaging hit. Druids just take more.
Effective health != mitigation either.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 1:49pm by Losie
I hate posts like this. They prove nothing except difference of opinion. All are acceptable forms of tanks, take it or leave it.
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