ShS Daggers?Follow

Nothing like a good flame war to get you through yet another boring day at work (this time of year really sucks for graphic designers like myself, not a lot of business and my work comp is too slow to run WoW).

Anyway...

11/42/7 was a PvP variation of the 19/42 build that I found in our FAQs (yes, I actually read those), in Demea's build post. I PvP a lot on top of getting my guild prepared for raiding, and running Kara with our sister guild. I don't have my epic flyer yet so respeccing so often is not something I am really ready for. Dirty Tricks is also helpful for the speed my guild operates at.

As to losing my DPS... well, Deadliness increases AP by 10% and Sinister Calling increases Agility by 15%. I didn't think it would have that much of an effect on over all DPS, but I also think it comes down to the way I like to play. For one, I would spam hemo 3 times in a row 2 seconds after my opener, then wait the 2 seconds and continue with a 5 point finishing move. 3 points in initiative gave me a 75% chance (which seemed to happen more often than 3/4 of the time) to generate 2 CPs from, ambush (when I was daggers) or garrote (when I was swords)... and then of course, cheap shot for PvP. So a lot of it comes down to CP generation and energy management for me (because I'm fast with my spams). Sinister Strike is what is killing me, as I've gotten so used to Hemo. The problem I am having with this combat build seems to revolve around Sinister Strike costing 40 energy and throwing off my natural cycle.

PvE is hard but I am relearning it... PvP on the other hand is becoming a problem mostly due to my lack of a 5 point kidney shot. If I could figure out how to pull that off, then I would be a machine. AR being on a 5 min cooldown isn't an option for me most of the time in PvP because I move from one target to the next. I mean just because I'm down to 300 health doesn't mean that I'm going to pass up the opportunity to cheap shot you while my buddies beat on you. Speaking of 300 health, I also really miss cheat death because that really got on people's nerves. Cheat death is like the answer to the fact that I wore leather.

Still, like I said my play style has a lot to do with it. 10 years of playing sneak attack rogues makes it hard to break old habits. Either way, I'm going to give this a try for a few more days... but at the moment I'm seriously considering going back to hemo. Even with the nerf, I felt like I was performing better.

As for rogues on farming... yeah, I can't wait to get my lock to 70. Much better farmbot considering my rogue has always been 1v1 where my lock has always been 2v5.

Ok, I see what he was talking about now. That was typed wrong and I completely missed it but I couldn't figure out what he meant when he said I was saying PvP was all about sustained. Now I see. I typed that wrong. The point I was trying to make in that statement was sustained DPS between bursts with a dagger on plate. That and the fact that a sword or mace's hemo/SS is going to hit a lot harder than a dagger's. Backstab just seems a little energy inefficient to me.

I like burst, which is why on my lock in PvP I like to throw a Shadowbolt from the shadows because it hits for so hard with all of my Shadowy Wrath gear in the 30-39 bracket that he is currently in.

While I agree with the general spirit of your post... you're being a bit to harsh there.

In 5 man instance, trash mob and even Karazhan, where boss fight last like 3 minutes, Shadowstep Dagger can actually pull some impressive dps.

The longer the fight last however, the more the advantage will go to the Combat rogue... even more so if it's a fight where you get to use Bladeflurry on several target (i.e Hydross).

Kara bosses =/= 3 min, except maybe Attumen (who has about twice as much hp as Shirrak the Dead Watcher, and is just a gear check to make sure not everyone is in full greens with no enchants/buffs).

Tyr, the problem is, pulls have more than 1 mob. So, you own everyone on dps the first mob, but now you don't have premed cp and shs-ambush dmg, so you fart all over the meters after you blow your 2 dps-yielding cooldowns. Things in Combat and Assass are as good as what you get from the CP and ambush, but they're not cooldowns, and you don't have to open a fight with them.

Seal Fate gives on average 3 bonus CP per mob (this is with 25% crit, each mob takes 35 sec to kill, you get 1 mutilate per 6 sec with a bonus 1 from beginning (50 energy taken from garrote, which yields 1 cp, meaning at full energy at start of fight you get 3.25cp). Each mutilate has 2.25 cp, and you get a bonus 3.25 cp from full energy at beginning of fight. 35/6 gives 5.8333333 mutilates, 5.83333 times 2.25cp gives 13.125 cp per mob, plus an additional 3.25 from full energy makes

16.375 CP for 1st mob as SF (if you didn't want to read my mixed-up messy math)

Now, if you don't have seal fate, but add in 3 cp total at beginning of fight from premed and ambush, you start the fight at 30 energy. First backstab takes 1/2 time to regen, or 3 sec, so after 3 sec plus openers you have 4 cp and 0 energy. 32 sec left, 6 sec per 1cp backstab. 32/6 makes 5.3333.... and 5.333+4 makes

9.3333 CP for 1st mob as ShS

Now of course, when you move on to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and sometimes 5th mob, you don't get full energy, or premed. Full energy = ~2.3 (rounded from 2.291666666) CP for SF, and 1 CP for ShS (if you add 2 onto the average from premed at the beginning, the damage of premed scales down per mob, but if the total fight time tops 2 min you can choose to waste vanish to gain an extra 2 cp)

So, after 35 sec of 0 energy with both builds, SF yields 13.125 CP and ShS yields 5.833333 CP.

Now, let's say there are 3 mobs in a group, or 70 seconds of 0 energy per mob and one first mob's worth of CP.

That leaves 42.625 CP in an entire fight from SF, and 21 CP in an entire fight from ShS. (This entire calculation assumes that the ShS build does not have Initiative.)

Simply showing the difference between SF and ShS obviously isn't enough to prove DPS difference, but it's a good start. I'm sure some genius like RP can calculate the DPS difference per 1st fight and each thereafter with a standard 41/20 combat mutilate build vs. whatever ShS daggers might take (probably 18/0/43, but that may be what I would just do).

Blech, that was ugly, huh. I guess I'll have to get better at showing my work w/ maths.

Mediocre in both, its a utility build and very gear dependent.

I know it's better. Der.

But you guys are greatly over-estimating the power of combat. It's not like the shadowstep guys go take a cup of coffee after doing his Ambush - He's still in the fight doing white damage and shadowstep/backstab whenever he can. He can vanish/ambush and then prep/vanish/ambush again as well.

The combat character will catch up to him obviously and beat him... but then there's the dirty deed range, which help the shadowstep character stay competitive.

Actually the initial difference is less than you think namely due to aggro issues, Combat more likely than not can start on the mob earlier than the ShS Rogue.

Assuming only 41 into Sub, this build is going to be suffering from the same problem all dagger builds suffer from, poor CP generation even if deep sub gives you better initial CP generation. Not to mention the problems balancing stats for daggers.

I'll conceed this though until further tests, whether Dirty Deeds can boost Backstab enough to make it competitive. This is reminiscent of the pre-BC Fury Warrior vs. Rogue on DPS charts where Rogues win until that threshold and then Fury wins out the rest of the way.

OK I just wanted to know for future posts I MIGHT make... who hijacked my thread. Because everyone is talking about everything BUT what I asked for. Yes i know some people did help me and i thank you for that, but my post is now gone...

ok im moving one so now this post is now CLOSDE =)


thx have a nice day,
Bacckstabb