Hi everyone,
I really only PvE and I always duo with a Protection Warrior of the same level.
One day while browsing the AH, I spotted several "of Arcane Wrath" items, which had pretty hefty +damage modifiers.
This interested me, so I ran and re-specced full arcane to try them out. Seems pretty good, but I notice that full Arcane builds are genrally met with skepticism by many people. Here are my questions/observations:
1) I realize that Arcane is more mana intensive than the other trees and that this seems to be one of the major complaints. However, isn't that fact offset by the Empowered Arcane Missles talent, adding +45% of your bonus damage, also the 40% threat reduction from Arcane Subtlety is very attractive and lets me go full out DPS quite early in the fight, even using Arcane Power. Finally, Arcane Focus makes my Missles hit more reliably. Does this not offset the increased cost?
2) This one is more of a direct question: You get a full Spirit every 6 sec while not casting, right? Does the time while your missles are channeling count as casting or not casting? If not casting, don't you basically get a full tic of mana back during each spell casting? If so, you could effectively reduce the cost of Arcane Missles by this amount. If I'm wrong, then I have egg on my face and I apologize to all for my ignorance.
3) It seems to me that very few mobs have a resistance/immunity to Arcane damage.
4) The Talent Arcane Potency really shines with the Arcane Missles spell, virtually assuring, in tandem with your base crit %, that at least 2 of your missles will crit.
These are just a few things I was thinking right now. I've been having what I feel is decent success with Full Arcane so far. Doing very good damage, just spamming AM in Maraudon and Zul Farrak. I don't have access to a damage meter, but it seems good.
What I'd really like to do, is to try and really flesh out Full Arcane and make it work. I will likely end up adding fire, just to get Pyroblast so that I feel I am getting my money's worth out of PoM, but mostly going for 44/17/0 or 44/14/3.
In any event, please tell me what I'm missing about this Arcane Tree, it just seems too good to be true and I'm loving it so far.
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Arcane not viable?Follow
Scholar
40 posts
Alot of naysayers for the arcane tree but GOOD LORD the damage from Arcane Missile is huge.
I have only one question while we wait for the scholars to answer. How often do you find yourself sitting and drinking while you grind or instance? That would be the litmus test for me.
I have only one question while we wait for the scholars to answer. How often do you find yourself sitting and drinking while you grind or instance? That would be the litmus test for me.
30 posts
Well, my theory is to drink little bits often. So, I usually take a few sips between every fight while people are looting, figuring out where to go next, or pulling the next mobs. I also religiously carry with me a stack of Sagefish Delight for a bit of extra help.
With this practice, and clear casts, I usually only sit for a full drink every 4-5 fights, barring major enounters, unexpected adds, etc. I don't know if this is a little or a lot, but the party has never had to wait for me to drink. I usually try to coordinate my drinking with the priest's ('cause I KNOW they will wait for him.)
And even at these times, I don't "need" to drink, I just take the opportunity to drink up full while everyone else is stopped. Most I could go we probably be around 6-8 fights, then I'd need to drink to continue to operate at top effectiveness.
With this practice, and clear casts, I usually only sit for a full drink every 4-5 fights, barring major enounters, unexpected adds, etc. I don't know if this is a little or a lot, but the party has never had to wait for me to drink. I usually try to coordinate my drinking with the priest's ('cause I KNOW they will wait for him.)
And even at these times, I don't "need" to drink, I just take the opportunity to drink up full while everyone else is stopped. Most I could go we probably be around 6-8 fights, then I'd need to drink to continue to operate at top effectiveness.
************* this not offset the increased cost?
[/quote wrote:
[/quote wrote:
No.
*********** This one is more of a direct question: You get a full Spirit every 6 sec while not casting, right? Does the time while your missles are channeling count as casting or not casting? If not casting, don't you basically get a full tic of mana back during each spell casting? If so, you could effectively reduce the cost of Arcane Missles by this amount. If I'm wrong, then I have egg on my face and I apologize to all for my ignorance.
You don't begin getting full mana ticks until you've not casted for a full five seconds since the last time mana was cost. There are rotations to get 1-2 full ticks, but they're subpar DPS.
[quote=*********** It seems to me that very few mobs have a resistance/immunity to Arcane damage.
[/quote wrote:
You'll encounter a fair few when you hit Kara. Even TK's 5 mans have a number of arcane immune mobs, I think.
[quote=*********** The Talent Arcane Potency really shines with the Arcane Missles spell, virtually assuring, in tandem with your base crit %, that at least 2 of your missles will crit.
While nifty, it's not enough to make the spec truly viable.
The only thing that makes arcane a remotely viable spec for PvE is the amount of threat reduction it gets. It is very mana inefficient(though better than it used to be) and lacks the damage a fire spec can give and the control/survivability a frost spec can give. It's ok overall for some uses, but it lacks the full potential of fire in DPS due to the mana inefficiency.
One thing I've read is that overgeared mages coming from T6 content going way down into a Kara/Gruul level guild (for guild disbandment or RL friend reasons) simply do too much damage to keep off aggro from the tank as fire, so they respec full Arcane simply for the 40% threat reduction.
Raglu wrote:
One thing I've read is that overgeared mages coming from T6 content going way down into a Kara/Gruul level guild (for guild disbandment or RL friend reasons) simply do too much damage to keep off aggro from the tank as fire, so they respec full Arcane simply for the 40% threat reduction.
I've heard that as well, which is great when you have a shadowpriest/etc backing you up with mana regen. If I didn't have that I would do frost as it causes a bit less threat due to frost channeling.
Anobix wrote:
Raglu wrote:
One thing I've read is that overgeared mages coming from T6 content going way down into a Kara/Gruul level guild (for guild disbandment or RL friend reasons) simply do too much damage to keep off aggro from the tank as fire, so they respec full Arcane simply for the 40% threat reduction.
I've heard that as well, which is great when you have a shadowpriest/etc backing you up with mana regen. If I didn't have that I would do frost as it causes a bit less threat due to frost channeling.
Actually, the main reason frost does less threat for the damage it does is because of the water elemental. Frostbolt and Fireball both do the same amount of threat talented(Burning Soul and Frost Channeling).
Arcane is viable once you get the gear for it. Most mages that have 2 pieces of T5 ensure that they have a shadow priest in the group for raids. I personally love deep arcane for PvP. It's not as good as it used to be with the Lightning Capacitor and Mystic Skyfire Diamond, but it is still pretty good. The only thing I won't do with a deep arcane build is Kara (or Raids past there) as there are enough boss fights there that would run me right out of mana without a shadow priest. For heroics and normal 5-mans, deep arcane is fine. It is all about the gear you have. I have +1.2K spell damage with my arcane gear and so if I'm in a pug, I like the 40% reduced threat from AM spam.
I have a 43/18 build atmo, used to have 40/21. But I´m not raiding now. For grinding and heroics I find arcane really nice, and for me its more fun than fire. Indeed it sucks mana really fast. I while ago I was invited to a Kara run from a friend guild which lacked one DPS. In opera I ended wanding for the last minute or 2 of the fight, there was no spriest and no shaman, I had used pot, evocation and gem, and I had used fire for a good portion of the fight not only arcane.
As much fun as it is arcane, without a good spriest and/or a shaman I sadly realize I cannot take it even to Kara, although I hoped to. /sad panda
As much fun as it is arcane, without a good spriest and/or a shaman I sadly realize I cannot take it even to Kara, although I hoped to. /sad panda
30 posts
Well, this discussion was disheartening. I really like the Arcane, but I am also interested in being as productive as possible (big numbers also make me smile lots).
I was playing last night and paying close attention to my spell damage in Fire vs. Arcane (mixing in a few fireballs here and there with PoM, etc.). I have about +177 Arcane damage and approx. +139 Fire damage.
AM hits for about 178-183 a tic and crits for 318-324ish. Fireball was hitting for about 480-505 and critting for 864-900. Fireball is untalented, so a 3.5 sec cast. So I did a bit of math assuming 35 sec of uninterrupted casting (hypothetically):
That would be 7 AM castings, for 35 tics of 180 damage = 6300 damage. My crit rate is 10.73%. Assume then that 4 of these missles crit, giving a grand total of 6860.
In the same time, I'll be casting 10 fireballs for an average of 490 damage = 4900 damage. Assuming my same crit rate of 10.73%, with luck, 2 of these fireballs will crit. for a grand total of 5,684 damage.
The mana cost aside, Arcane does substantially more damage. The flip-side to this argument, naturally, is that if I were specced Fire, the Fireballs would cast faster and hit harder.
I think I will test out pure fire for a little while and see how much I like it. Now my problem is that I'm all geared up for Arcane damage, gotta go farm for new gear I suppose. I can tell right now that my re-speccing habits are about to get expensive. I JUST CAN'T DECIDE!!!!!!!!!
Thanks a lot for your help everyone.
I was playing last night and paying close attention to my spell damage in Fire vs. Arcane (mixing in a few fireballs here and there with PoM, etc.). I have about +177 Arcane damage and approx. +139 Fire damage.
AM hits for about 178-183 a tic and crits for 318-324ish. Fireball was hitting for about 480-505 and critting for 864-900. Fireball is untalented, so a 3.5 sec cast. So I did a bit of math assuming 35 sec of uninterrupted casting (hypothetically):
That would be 7 AM castings, for 35 tics of 180 damage = 6300 damage. My crit rate is 10.73%. Assume then that 4 of these missles crit, giving a grand total of 6860.
In the same time, I'll be casting 10 fireballs for an average of 490 damage = 4900 damage. Assuming my same crit rate of 10.73%, with luck, 2 of these fireballs will crit. for a grand total of 5,684 damage.
The mana cost aside, Arcane does substantially more damage. The flip-side to this argument, naturally, is that if I were specced Fire, the Fireballs would cast faster and hit harder.
I think I will test out pure fire for a little while and see how much I like it. Now my problem is that I'm all geared up for Arcane damage, gotta go farm for new gear I suppose. I can tell right now that my re-speccing habits are about to get expensive. I JUST CAN'T DECIDE!!!!!!!!!
Thanks a lot for your help everyone.
Quote:
The mana cost aside, Arcane does substantially more damage.
End-game it does more damage (e.g. T5 2 piece bonus), did you just get a new rank of AM at your level or something? With all the +crit, +damage talents set up, deep fire will out DPS deep arcane unless you have the T5 gear. If deep arcane did more damage than deep fire, it'd be the preferred raiding spec. Also you have +arcane damage and not just +damage damage.... so you're not comparing apples to apples. ;-)
ktangent wrote:
Quote:
The mana cost aside, Arcane does substantially more damage.
End-game it does more damage (e.g. T5 2 piece bonus), did you just get a new rank of AM at your level or something? With all the +crit, +damage talents set up, deep fire will out DPS deep arcane unless you have the T5 gear. If deep arcane did more damage than deep fire, it'd be the preferred raiding spec. Also you have +arcane damage and not just +damage damage.... so you're not comparing apples to apples. ;-)
Actually, through the theorycrafting that I have done, 2-piece T5 isn't even viable as doing more damage than 10/48/3 anymore because of the nerfs to MSD/LC. Basically it is a less mana efficient and less damaging spec.
When raiding remember one most important fact.
Shadow priests are your best friend. Like diamonds.
Shadow priests are your best friend. Like diamonds.
Well, true Arcane power comes from having 3 shadow priests in your group and spamming Arcane Blast with its 3 debuffs on the entire way.
30 posts
Hi again all. I'm just coming back on to relay my experiences after i switched to full fire 0/40/0.
First off, it CERTAINLY does more damage. No questions about that. In fact, I would almost go so far as to say is does TOO MUCH damage. Maybe this is just my inexperience as a mage, but I have died more in the past week than the whole rest of my gaming experience. Primarily this happens when I crit fireball, then crit pyro, then crit fire blast back-to-back-to-back (happens often enough to merit discussion).
My rotation was/is: hit scorch until the mob has at least 2 sunders on, then fireball, pryoblast, fire blast, spam fireball until dead. Usually only get to step 2-3 unless it is something major. Ran Sunken Temple a few times and ripped the dragon dudes off more than once. When they get to me, i'm reduced to a crimson splotch on the floor in a matter of seconds.
I still use a lot of mana, and my mana pool is much smaller without arcane mind. Therefore, I almost consider the mana cost factor to be a wash. However, as said, the damage is stunningly higher. I like it, but I think I want some of my arcane toys back too.
Any suggestions on improvement to spell rotation?
First off, it CERTAINLY does more damage. No questions about that. In fact, I would almost go so far as to say is does TOO MUCH damage. Maybe this is just my inexperience as a mage, but I have died more in the past week than the whole rest of my gaming experience. Primarily this happens when I crit fireball, then crit pyro, then crit fire blast back-to-back-to-back (happens often enough to merit discussion).
My rotation was/is: hit scorch until the mob has at least 2 sunders on, then fireball, pryoblast, fire blast, spam fireball until dead. Usually only get to step 2-3 unless it is something major. Ran Sunken Temple a few times and ripped the dragon dudes off more than once. When they get to me, i'm reduced to a crimson splotch on the floor in a matter of seconds.
I still use a lot of mana, and my mana pool is much smaller without arcane mind. Therefore, I almost consider the mana cost factor to be a wash. However, as said, the damage is stunningly higher. I like it, but I think I want some of my arcane toys back too.
Any suggestions on improvement to spell rotation?
Basically, you need to run a threat meter like Omen. If the tank has one as well, you'll be able to tell if you're going to surpass him on the threat list. If not, then you need to be more careful. ;-) Wait for 5 sunders then:
On bosses:
1) scorch x 5
2) fireball x 8
3) scorch x 1
4) goto 2.
On trash:
1) fireball x 1,000,000
2) scorch x 1,000,000 if you find that step 1 pulls aggro
You could open with a pyroblast as well, which gives another 6 seconds from the beginning of the cast for the tank to build threat.
On bosses:
1) scorch x 5
2) fireball x 8
3) scorch x 1
4) goto 2.
On trash:
1) fireball x 1,000,000
2) scorch x 1,000,000 if you find that step 1 pulls aggro
You could open with a pyroblast as well, which gives another 6 seconds from the beginning of the cast for the tank to build threat.
Scholar
27 posts
I experienced that when in a instant and the tank isnt too good builded, i rip agrp off a lot! Im frost with 4 points in clearcasting. My damage is pretty nice mostly my frostbolts crit for 3500 dmg. I also know when to start casting and using trinkets. My brother has a druid tank and he is the only one i can keep up with.
Gotta admit he can only get better gear from gruul and nothing else. But it kinda
sucks as frost mage. A guildie of mine who is fire founds her self killed a lot cause of the fireball crits. Big numbers but it doesn't work when you die. So im
thinking too to go deep arcane. I found it cool enough. You have to change spell casting a bit. If you know how to use it and don't go rampage in a instance withouth clearcasting you are pretty fine. the damage is nice and sometimes you last 4 fights with full mana other times 6 or 7 fight's. And that is worth the shot for me.
Gotta admit he can only get better gear from gruul and nothing else. But it kinda
sucks as frost mage. A guildie of mine who is fire founds her self killed a lot cause of the fireball crits. Big numbers but it doesn't work when you die. So im
thinking too to go deep arcane. I found it cool enough. You have to change spell casting a bit. If you know how to use it and don't go rampage in a instance withouth clearcasting you are pretty fine. the damage is nice and sometimes you last 4 fights with full mana other times 6 or 7 fight's. And that is worth the shot for me.
I have, at times, respeced deep arcane because the tanks couldn't generate enough threat for me to adequately dps (e.g. frostbolt, wait 2 sec... frostbolt, wait 2 sec)...
If it's a guildy that you keep aggroing over, then perhaps they aren't playing their warrior/pally/druid tank correctly, or aren't specced correctly. If it is a PUG...well, you take your chances there.
If it's a guildy that you keep aggroing over, then perhaps they aren't playing their warrior/pally/druid tank correctly, or aren't specced correctly. If it is a PUG...well, you take your chances there.
ktangent wrote:
If it's a guildy that you keep aggroing over, then perhaps they aren't playing their warrior/pally/druid tank correctly, or aren't specced correctly. If it is a PUG...well, you take your chances there.
If it's a warrior, look for a "Rend" debuff. That's a sure sign that they have no idea what the **** they are doing. And yes, I was once in a guild where the main tank used this.
Scholar
27 posts
Well if my bro tank's its hard to take off agro even if i use fireblast.
But with any pug, i got a problem.
ahhwell ill keep thinking about it but don't know if i go deep arcane..
well see :>
But with any pug, i got a problem.
ahhwell ill keep thinking about it but don't know if i go deep arcane..
well see :>
Boguz wrote:
I experienced that when in a instant and the tank isnt too good builded, i rip agrp off a lot! Im frost with 4 points in clearcasting. My damage is pretty nice mostly my frostbolts crit for 3500 dmg. I also know when to start casting and using trinkets. My brother has a druid tank and he is the only one i can keep up with.
Gotta admit he can only get better gear from gruul and nothing else. But it kinda
sucks as frost mage. A guildie of mine who is fire founds her self killed a lot cause of the fireball crits. Big numbers but it doesn't work when you die. So im
thinking too to go deep arcane. I found it cool enough. You have to change spell casting a bit. If you know how to use it and don't go rampage in a instance withouth clearcasting you are pretty fine. the damage is nice and sometimes you last 4 fights with full mana other times 6 or 7 fight's. And that is worth the shot for me.
Gotta admit he can only get better gear from gruul and nothing else. But it kinda
sucks as frost mage. A guildie of mine who is fire founds her self killed a lot cause of the fireball crits. Big numbers but it doesn't work when you die. So im
thinking too to go deep arcane. I found it cool enough. You have to change spell casting a bit. If you know how to use it and don't go rampage in a instance withouth clearcasting you are pretty fine. the damage is nice and sometimes you last 4 fights with full mana other times 6 or 7 fight's. And that is worth the shot for me.
I don't think you will be going 4 fights, or even 2 fights (raid wise) without going OOM unless you have a ton of mana regen in your group.
As a deep arcane mage, I only go out of mana on long boss fights like nightbane/prince. But with the mana gem changes, that could change.
But you do have to drink a lot after fights..... not a concern, just pick up 60 mana biscuits when you make em.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 8:38am by ktangent
But you do have to drink a lot after fights..... not a concern, just pick up 60 mana biscuits when you make em.
Edited, Jan 10th 2008 8:38am by ktangent
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