Alright so I calculated my DPS for Fireball and Pyroblast and my Fireball does more DPS then Pyroblast. My Pyro does 37DPS, and my Fireball does 45DPS...
So therefore shouldn't I just spam Fireball on a mob until it dies rather than start with a Pyroblast? Because obviously it would die faster, perhaps i'm missing something here, can anyone enlighten me?
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Pyroblast v.s. FireballFollow
It depends, If the mob isnt coming to you, you should start with pyroblast to get an edge on burst damage, then continue to spam fireball once the mob aggro.
I don't know anything about the math, but in my personal experience as a fire mage my Pyroblast crits higher than my fireball. So, when I open I usually do Pyroblast because if it crits, it does more damage which means more ignite damage.
Convalesce wrote:
Alright so I calculated my DPS for Fireball and Pyroblast and my Fireball does more DPS then Pyroblast. My Pyro does 37DPS, and my Fireball does 45DPS...
Whereas, yes, Pyroblast is lower DPS than Fireball, Pyroblast has a higher DPM than Fireball.
The DoT of Fireball is a joke- its only handiness is to prevent restealthing. It's like less than 9% of the direct damage of Fireball. Pyroblast, on the other hand, has a much stronger DoT, which in addition, stacks with the Fireball DoT. Therefore, starting off with the Pyroblast and then going to Fireball allows an actual higher "burst" damage (really over 12 seconds) than chain-casting Fireball.
Did you calculate that in there? If you did and it still has a higher DPS with Fireball, and the DPM is largely insignificant, then chaincasting Fireball is the way to go for you.
Like the other 3 posters above me have said, start the fight with Pyroblast and then start the Fireballing. (Dunno if you wanna shoot a rank 1 Frostbolt after the Pyroblast for a quick slow-down on the mob...)
Pyroblast also is useful in these situations:
PvE/PvP - breaking a sheep when the time is ready, or simply pulling. The damage would probably be about 50% higher, and since cast time is virtually irrelevent when breaking sheep or starting combat, pyro would be better. When I was fire, I would pyro - fireball - fireblast and the target would be dead. If I tried fireballing, it would take 3 hits.
PoM build - with improved fireball, in a PoM build casting PoM then fireball actually LOWERS your overall DPS in raids. Instead of 3 seconds of 2x fireball, it's 2 GCDs (3 seconds) spent on 1x fireball. On the other hand, pyroblast can be cast much faster, using up 3 seconds instead of 6.
Mana Efficiency - Not only is pyro more DPM, but with a 6 second cast time you actually get a tick of full regen (not just MP/5, but spirit as well), making it more mana efficient than it appears.
PvE/PvP - breaking a sheep when the time is ready, or simply pulling. The damage would probably be about 50% higher, and since cast time is virtually irrelevent when breaking sheep or starting combat, pyro would be better. When I was fire, I would pyro - fireball - fireblast and the target would be dead. If I tried fireballing, it would take 3 hits.
PoM build - with improved fireball, in a PoM build casting PoM then fireball actually LOWERS your overall DPS in raids. Instead of 3 seconds of 2x fireball, it's 2 GCDs (3 seconds) spent on 1x fireball. On the other hand, pyroblast can be cast much faster, using up 3 seconds instead of 6.
Mana Efficiency - Not only is pyro more DPM, but with a 6 second cast time you actually get a tick of full regen (not just MP/5, but spirit as well), making it more mana efficient than it appears.
Alot of yall are missing the point.
Basic DPS is important when on a straight and easy grind in which you litterally don't stop firing.
Unengaged DPS is important in all other PVE situations.
Fact is you'll be doing the best single target DPS with IAM (except at lower levels in which case this changes based on what spells you most recently got.) The problem with IAM is that you engage the enemy almost immediately, and they are generally at your feet by the time the first on has finished casting.
If you calculate the DPS from the start of the casting to the time the mosnter dies, you are not calculating in the actually important factors. Think about why you do not pull with Fireblast (technically infiniately high DPS, even if you add in GCD its still significantly higher than any other options)... The spell instantly engages the monster and now you have no free cast time before the real fight begins.
On very easy grinds I suggest just Fireball spamming, it will up your exp gain by a few percent (maybe 5%.) Anything that's gonna make it up to you, though, I really suggest starting with Pyro. Yes, the full DPS is low, but when you factor in that the monster is unengaged until the Projectile hits them, you'll see why this spell works as a great opener (same reason it works well as an Opener on Sheeped enemies.)
Basic DPS is important when on a straight and easy grind in which you litterally don't stop firing.
Unengaged DPS is important in all other PVE situations.
Fact is you'll be doing the best single target DPS with IAM (except at lower levels in which case this changes based on what spells you most recently got.) The problem with IAM is that you engage the enemy almost immediately, and they are generally at your feet by the time the first on has finished casting.
If you calculate the DPS from the start of the casting to the time the mosnter dies, you are not calculating in the actually important factors. Think about why you do not pull with Fireblast (technically infiniately high DPS, even if you add in GCD its still significantly higher than any other options)... The spell instantly engages the monster and now you have no free cast time before the real fight begins.
On very easy grinds I suggest just Fireball spamming, it will up your exp gain by a few percent (maybe 5%.) Anything that's gonna make it up to you, though, I really suggest starting with Pyro. Yes, the full DPS is low, but when you factor in that the monster is unengaged until the Projectile hits them, you'll see why this spell works as a great opener (same reason it works well as an Opener on Sheeped enemies.)
tzsjynx wrote:
Fact is you'll be doing the best single target DPS with IAM
Somehow I doubt that. Unless it comes with a lot of caveats.
I think he means once you have a target on you. No losy casty time.
redbarrom wrote:
apprently scorch spamming is more dps than fireball spamming
jsut something i heard of a lot of fire mages
jsut something i heard of a lot of fire mages
Not really. Scorch spamming is useful in PvP due to quick casts that allow for movement, but it hardly does the DPS of fireball. Back before they put the cooldown on The Lightning Capacitor, it was a decent contender under certain optimal conditions, but now it's mostly just useful in PvP and heavy mobility fights.
I believe that starting long fights with 5x scorch, then scorching once per 30 seconds after that, is what increases DPS. Excepting the first few scorches you get a slightly less damage ability every 27-30 seconds, and you get an otherwise 15% increase in fire damage.
Along the same lines as the comments made by tzsjynx and Deciet, we need to clarify what kind of fight we're in before we talk about what spells to use.
Uses of Pyro (assuming no PoM)
- Maximizing DPS over a long (boss) fight? No Pyro.
- Efficiency in grinding equal- or higher-level mobs? Start with Pyro and then forget it.
- Efficiency in grinding low-level mobs? (say, when you're grinding mobs in Tanaris at 70 to power level tailoring) No Pyro.
- PvP? LoL.
Scorch is not quite as clear. For instancing at 70, I really liked Scorch when my gear was weak (still isn't that great) and I had a hybrid arc/fire build. All the crits and ignites really add up; additionally, b/c I had 40+pts in Arcane, I was missing alot of important deep fire Fireball talents like Empowered Fireball or w/e it's called.
Uses of Pyro (assuming no PoM)
- Maximizing DPS over a long (boss) fight? No Pyro.
- Efficiency in grinding equal- or higher-level mobs? Start with Pyro and then forget it.
- Efficiency in grinding low-level mobs? (say, when you're grinding mobs in Tanaris at 70 to power level tailoring) No Pyro.
- PvP? LoL.
Scorch is not quite as clear. For instancing at 70, I really liked Scorch when my gear was weak (still isn't that great) and I had a hybrid arc/fire build. All the crits and ignites really add up; additionally, b/c I had 40+pts in Arcane, I was missing alot of important deep fire Fireball talents like Empowered Fireball or w/e it's called.
3 posts
As has been pointed out, you can't compare solutions to a problem if you haven't defined the problem.
Solo fights? Regular mobs or elite? Number of mobs?
Group fights (5man/etc)? ditto?
Your spec is very important as well...
If you're just talking fast killing, throw in a fireblast to shave off three seconds from the last fireball you would have had to cast...
When playing solo, some things to consider:
Pyro is a mana efficient opener... the 6 seconds aren't in battle... you add a dot...
Don't shrug off scorch so easily. If you have impact, hitting more often means it will be more likely to proc. Scorch and fireblast have a 6% increased chance to crit with talents... This means you can be rolling ignites up on a mob, freeze and run doing damage while you're running with the dot where you'd normally be doing none. It's more mana efficient than fireball. Then of course there's the talented scorch debuff....
+Mana efficiency == less drinking == less downtime which balances out those 6 seconds.
Solo fights? Regular mobs or elite? Number of mobs?
Group fights (5man/etc)? ditto?
Your spec is very important as well...
If you're just talking fast killing, throw in a fireblast to shave off three seconds from the last fireball you would have had to cast...
When playing solo, some things to consider:
Pyro is a mana efficient opener... the 6 seconds aren't in battle... you add a dot...
Don't shrug off scorch so easily. If you have impact, hitting more often means it will be more likely to proc. Scorch and fireblast have a 6% increased chance to crit with talents... This means you can be rolling ignites up on a mob, freeze and run doing damage while you're running with the dot where you'd normally be doing none. It's more mana efficient than fireball. Then of course there's the talented scorch debuff....
+Mana efficiency == less drinking == less downtime which balances out those 6 seconds.
AM11 is 280dps
FB14 is 232.9dps + 10.5dps over 8 (which doesn't fill out when spamming.)
IFB14 is 271.7dps + 10.5dps over 8 again.
Scorch + FB with good talentset will start out with even lower DPS but in a long enough fight (at least a minute) will make up for it... except for the fact that Arcane is designed to reduce threat production and increase hit chance, in addition to evening out damage and being much less dependant on crits.
End of story is, AM11 > FB14 on short fights (easy grinds) as well as "hard" (resistant, threat-dropping, ect) targets. On mid-difficulty targets, though, Fireball definatly pulls ahead, and makes better use of Crits and +dmg (for the most part.)
Any mage who opens up a PVE fight with a non-projectile DD is a moron, though, so even IAM Mages open up with Fireball or Frostbolt.
FB14 is 232.9dps + 10.5dps over 8 (which doesn't fill out when spamming.)
IFB14 is 271.7dps + 10.5dps over 8 again.
Scorch + FB with good talentset will start out with even lower DPS but in a long enough fight (at least a minute) will make up for it... except for the fact that Arcane is designed to reduce threat production and increase hit chance, in addition to evening out damage and being much less dependant on crits.
End of story is, AM11 > FB14 on short fights (easy grinds) as well as "hard" (resistant, threat-dropping, ect) targets. On mid-difficulty targets, though, Fireball definatly pulls ahead, and makes better use of Crits and +dmg (for the most part.)
Any mage who opens up a PVE fight with a non-projectile DD is a moron, though, so even IAM Mages open up with Fireball or Frostbolt.
tzsjynx wrote:
AM11 is 280dps
FB14 is 232.9dps + 10.5dps over 8 (which doesn't fill out when spamming.)
IFB14 is 271.7dps + 10.5dps over 8 again.
Scorch + FB with good talentset will start out with even lower DPS but in a long enough fight (at least a minute) will make up for it... except for the fact that Arcane is designed to reduce threat production and increase hit chance, in addition to evening out damage and being much less dependant on crits.
End of story is, AM11 > FB14 on short fights (easy grinds) as well as "hard" (resistant, threat-dropping, ect) targets. On mid-difficulty targets, though, Fireball definatly pulls ahead, and makes better use of Crits and +dmg (for the most part.)
Any mage who opens up a PVE fight with a non-projectile DD is a moron, though, so even IAM Mages open up with Fireball or Frostbolt.
FB14 is 232.9dps + 10.5dps over 8 (which doesn't fill out when spamming.)
IFB14 is 271.7dps + 10.5dps over 8 again.
Scorch + FB with good talentset will start out with even lower DPS but in a long enough fight (at least a minute) will make up for it... except for the fact that Arcane is designed to reduce threat production and increase hit chance, in addition to evening out damage and being much less dependant on crits.
End of story is, AM11 > FB14 on short fights (easy grinds) as well as "hard" (resistant, threat-dropping, ect) targets. On mid-difficulty targets, though, Fireball definatly pulls ahead, and makes better use of Crits and +dmg (for the most part.)
Any mage who opens up a PVE fight with a non-projectile DD is a moron, though, so even IAM Mages open up with Fireball or Frostbolt.
Have you calculated in talented crits and mana efficiency? Because I'm not seeing it there.
Naw... actually I was in a rush when I responded.
I put in my post that it was not including Crits, and that Crits are especially effective when dealing with Fire (for Ignite) and, although I did not post before, Frost due to Ice Shards.
Although I'm sure you're very much familiar with the talents, the Fire tree does a nice job of boosting DPS within the realm of fire-based DDs, where as the Arcane does nearly an equal job boosting damage and crit%s across the board. It's mostly by the loss of Combustion and some of the other Triggerable Talents that Arcane loses out on the DPS front to Fire.
I put in my post that it was not including Crits, and that Crits are especially effective when dealing with Fire (for Ignite) and, although I did not post before, Frost due to Ice Shards.
Although I'm sure you're very much familiar with the talents, the Fire tree does a nice job of boosting DPS within the realm of fire-based DDs, where as the Arcane does nearly an equal job boosting damage and crit%s across the board. It's mostly by the loss of Combustion and some of the other Triggerable Talents that Arcane loses out on the DPS front to Fire.
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