Here's the problem: I have no problems with Paladins. I do have problems with Warriors and Druids, and are starting to dislike ever seeing them tank my groups, just due to their inability to hold threat on multiple targets, while ticking about 500 health per second on the main tank in HoTs, and at least one DPS, if not more.
I'm having issues with having to tank in Tree of Life form, because the tanks simply cannot hold threat against multiple targets, with huge amounts of healing be throwing about every 3 seconds. Which just dominos into the main tank being unable to get threat back from me, because i've already laid down more threat on myself surviving then he can possibly get back, and just to survive the beating i'm receiving, I have to cure more to the point where i've wasted more mana on survival, then I have on the tank and the entire party.
Monsters just fly right past the tank as soon as that first Rejuv tick goes over, because the swipe of the sword he uses just isn't doing the job. I'm left with the conundrum of either flat-our refusing to group with anyone but Paladins, or considering some form of alternative, low-health healing that stands to be very risky to the tank, if not generate even more threat with spike heals from low tank health, just to allow him more time to get threat built on his side targets.
It's a very frustrating situation. I hate to wipe because I get dogpiled on and die first, while the tank and everyone else slowly wipes afterwards, but it's getting quite common. I'm just not sure what else to do at this point. I start my Rejuv before he even pulls, so my healing counts as his threat, but it's still not enough.
WTF is a Resto Druid supposed to do to survive with Warriors and Druid tanks?
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1) Do you have the Subtlety talents? We have (had, actually) a guild Shaman who refused to pick them up and would spam Chain Heal in Mount Hyjal, then complain when he pulled mobs. The common response was "Duh?"
2) Lifebloom's *bloom* (not the HoT) effect gives the tank the threat... not you. It's a great way to give them free AE threat and make their job easier, as well as your own.
3) Conversely, even if you Rejuv before the pull starts it still counts as _your_ threat, so if it heals his little scratch as mobs are running in after he bow pulls they're going to head in your direction... and it's far more difficult to get mobs _off_ someone than it is to keep them on you in the first place. Give him a bit of space and time.
Edited, Dec 29th 2007 12:28am by RPZip
2) Lifebloom's *bloom* (not the HoT) effect gives the tank the threat... not you. It's a great way to give them free AE threat and make their job easier, as well as your own.
3) Conversely, even if you Rejuv before the pull starts it still counts as _your_ threat, so if it heals his little scratch as mobs are running in after he bow pulls they're going to head in your direction... and it's far more difficult to get mobs _off_ someone than it is to keep them on you in the first place. Give him a bit of space and time.
Edited, Dec 29th 2007 12:28am by RPZip
Well, so i've been informed by other Druids, that if you land a HoT before the tank registers any threat on a target, the monsters will consider the threat of healing to belong to the tank. I personally think this is true, as i've thrown Rejuv on a tank before and until the pre-cast HoT wears off, i'm left alone by the side mobs. I only get threat from the tank when I apply the same HoT in the middle of the battle, when the healing apperantly registers back to me instead of the tank.
I've had people tell me that before, but it's never panned out for me before.
Keep in mind that HoTs don't tick if they're at full HP, so most of that Rejuv isn't going to do _anything_ until they get hit... which would be why it doesn't seem to be detrimental. That doesn't mean it's helping, though.
Keep in mind that HoTs don't tick if they're at full HP, so most of that Rejuv isn't going to do _anything_ until they get hit... which would be why it doesn't seem to be detrimental. That doesn't mean it's helping, though.
Well, on my 43 warrior I recently tanked ulda, and on 7-mob pulls with no CC I held everyone on me. So either your tanks are just idiots, you're doing something wrong, or one/both of you is undergeared for what you're doing.
if not generate even more threat with spike heals from low tank health, just to allow him more time to get threat built on his side targets.
Actually letting him build aggro and then spiking threat is less risky than doing a little bit of threat on multiple targets when he has no threat at all. If you are out of melee range, you need to generate 30% additional threat than the tank to pull aggro. That means if he's got 0 threat, you need to do 1 threat. Once he's got demo shout/roar and tclap/swipe up, he's actually got some threat on the mobs, and your spike wont do as much in comparison.
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if not generate even more threat with spike heals from low tank health, just to allow him more time to get threat built on his side targets.
Actually letting him build aggro and then spiking threat is less risky than doing a little bit of threat on multiple targets when he has no threat at all. If you are out of melee range, you need to generate 30% additional threat than the tank to pull aggro. That means if he's got 0 threat, you need to do 1 threat. Once he's got demo shout/roar and tclap/swipe up, he's actually got some threat on the mobs, and your spike wont do as much in comparison.
yeah, dont do anything to a tank after hes pulled, and dont HoT him until after he has built some kind of threat (generally after one swipe or thunder clap). starting with a single lifebloom and letting it bloom isnt a bad idea, then work in the other heals as needed.
also, how many mobs are you pulling at once? 4 should be doable by a warrior tank, 3-4 by a druid, but what about CC? the only 5-man instance i can think of where youd have more than four guys per pull is shattered halls. the best thing to do would be bring some CC. it doesnt just have to be a mage to poly either; fear works fine in a lot of situations as long as precautions are taken (i.e. the warlock is ready to yo-yo a target with CoReck, or the warrior snares with piercing howl before fearing, or the pull is pulled far enough back that aggro from adds is a non-issue).
also, to reiterate, the druids who told you that stuff about HoT's and threat are wrong, horribly horribly wrong. threat from any healing spell is always given to the healer who casts the spell unless otherwise specifically noted such as with lifebloom, earth shield, or prayer of mending. the best way you can tell whether youll get threat or not is the combat log. if it says "your heal heals so-and-so for XXXX" then you get the threat. if it says "so-and-so's heal heals so-and-so for XXXX" then they get the threat. a prime example is lifebloom. have a friend jump down a small cliff and then you bloom em. watch the first 6 ticks and youll see "Your lifebloom heals Friend for XXX" and on the final tick youll see "Friends' lifebloom heals Friend for XXXX".
Edited, Dec 29th 2007 3:08am by Quor
also, how many mobs are you pulling at once? 4 should be doable by a warrior tank, 3-4 by a druid, but what about CC? the only 5-man instance i can think of where youd have more than four guys per pull is shattered halls. the best thing to do would be bring some CC. it doesnt just have to be a mage to poly either; fear works fine in a lot of situations as long as precautions are taken (i.e. the warlock is ready to yo-yo a target with CoReck, or the warrior snares with piercing howl before fearing, or the pull is pulled far enough back that aggro from adds is a non-issue).
also, to reiterate, the druids who told you that stuff about HoT's and threat are wrong, horribly horribly wrong. threat from any healing spell is always given to the healer who casts the spell unless otherwise specifically noted such as with lifebloom, earth shield, or prayer of mending. the best way you can tell whether youll get threat or not is the combat log. if it says "your heal heals so-and-so for XXXX" then you get the threat. if it says "so-and-so's heal heals so-and-so for XXXX" then they get the threat. a prime example is lifebloom. have a friend jump down a small cliff and then you bloom em. watch the first 6 ticks and youll see "Your lifebloom heals Friend for XXX" and on the final tick youll see "Friends' lifebloom heals Friend for XXXX".
Edited, Dec 29th 2007 3:08am by Quor
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also, to reiterate, the druids who told you that stuff about HoT's and threat are wrong, horribly horribly wrong. threat from any healing spell is always given to the healer who casts the spell unless otherwise specifically noted such as with lifebloom, earth shield, or prayer of mending. the best way you can tell whether youll get threat or not is the combat log. if it says "your heal heals so-and-so for XXXX" then you get the threat. if it says "so-and-so's heal heals so-and-so for XXXX" then they get the threat. a prime example is lifebloom. have a friend jump down a small cliff and then you bloom em. watch the first 6 ticks and youll see "Your lifebloom heals Friend for XXX" and on the final tick youll see "Friends' lifebloom heals Friend for XXXX".
In that case, if this is true, how about getting the druid tank to load a few HoTs on himself first before going into the fray? That way it would conserve mana and help him gain threat.
Btw, the tanks that you are with are just horrible. Solution? Don't PuG. Even back when I was learning to bear tank I could already make 3 stick on me.
Warne wrote:
Well, so i've been informed by other Druids, that if you land a HoT before the tank registers any threat on a target, the monsters will consider the threat of healing to belong to the tank. I personally think this is true, as i've thrown Rejuv on a tank before and until the pre-cast HoT wears off, i'm left alone by the side mobs. I only get threat from the tank when I apply the same HoT in the middle of the battle, when the healing apperantly registers back to me instead of the tank.
This can also easily be verified by a threat meter, like for instance Omen.
I think it's more like what others have said, you don't get any threat in the
beginning, because the HoT is not doing any actual healing until he is has taken
some damage.
On the note about not doing PuG's, well some people don't have that choice if they
want things done.
Bloodthunder wrote:
how about getting the druid tank to load a few HoTs on himself first before going into the fray? That way it would conserve mana and help him gain threat.
Absolutely. This just makes good bear sense. You're using mana you don't need anyway, taking some healing load off the healer, and building your own threat all at the same time. I've done so a few times but thinking about it now I will try to make it a regular part of my routine. That and pulling with damage spells instead of feral faerie fire, followed by a last second shift to Bear to benefit from Furor.
Edit: I just had the idea that for those PITA groups of lots of lightweight mobs, which I've always had trouble attracting let alone keeping on me, I could throw some HoTs on myself, run into the crowd, pop Barkskin and then Hurricane where I stand, and shift to bear as that runs out. Can't wait to try that.
Bloodthunder wrote:
Btw, the tanks that you are with are just horrible. Solution? Don't PuG.
I read this statement very much like: "The cars you've driven are just horrible. Solution? Don't drive."
Correction: "The tanks that you are with are just horrible. Solution? Don't run instances with them again."
My point: Not all PuGs suck. And certainly not all players that PuG suck. For example, I tank PuGs all the time and I don't suck. Granted, I like running instances with buds and guildies better, but that's more for the social side of things. In my experience I find that PuGs work out well most of the time, and when they don't there's usually one player in particular causing the problem and you can either kick them if it's killing your chances of success or make a note to not party with again if you can struggle through it.
Edited, Dec 29th 2007 11:38am by JeeBar
Another reason for a bear to HOT himself before a fight is that once you get furor, you will probably be switching from caster form to bear form anyway just to get the free rage. When in caster form, why not pop a few HoTs on yourself?
Also, on my warrior, whenever I pull with I bow I immediately use bloodrage AFTER. Generating rage generates threat, and when they reach me I have enough rage to demo shout or TC. After one swing I definitely can do the other.
Also, on my warrior, whenever I pull with I bow I immediately use bloodrage AFTER. Generating rage generates threat, and when they reach me I have enough rage to demo shout or TC. After one swing I definitely can do the other.
ya, bloodrage/enrage AFTER the pull is a good way to get a little threat start. at least enough threat to offset say, a power word: shield or the first few ticks of a HoT.
I have easily held 9 mobs on my bear tank in Sunken Temple. In the Outland instances, the only thing holding me back isn't threat, it is my survivability. Once I get good tanking gear, I will be able to hold as many mobs as I want.
Don't heal the tank until the tank is taking damage.
As for the Rebirth + Rejuv before pulling, I do that occasionally, on pulls where I know I am going to be taking a lot of upfront damage. I also occasionally pull with Starfire on the secondary target, Moonfire on the primary, but my typical pull is to shift into and out of bear and pop Enrage. If I let the Enrage tick to completion before pulling, I have about 40 instant rage to work with, letting me get in a couple immediate swipes and all that.
Don't heal the tank until the tank is taking damage.
As for the Rebirth + Rejuv before pulling, I do that occasionally, on pulls where I know I am going to be taking a lot of upfront damage. I also occasionally pull with Starfire on the secondary target, Moonfire on the primary, but my typical pull is to shift into and out of bear and pop Enrage. If I let the Enrage tick to completion before pulling, I have about 40 instant rage to work with, letting me get in a couple immediate swipes and all that.
Quote:
I read this statement very much like: "The cars you've driven are just horrible. Solution? Don't drive."
Correction: "The tanks that you are with are just horrible. Solution? Don't run instances with them again."
Correction: "The tanks that you are with are just horrible. Solution? Don't run instances with them again."
Oops, perhaps I wasn't too clear on that. Meant to *just drive the cars you are familiar with".
Yeah, i've made changes to my spec, what blessings and such I take, and i'm still getting killed before the tanks. So i'm just gonna write this whole thing off as bad tanks.
Paladins onry! At least you can still be a ****** as a Paladin and hold threat against more the one monster. Easier to find a bad Paladin who Consecrates, then a decent Warrior or Druid.
Edited, Dec 30th 2007 8:05pm by Warne
Paladins onry! At least you can still be a ****** as a Paladin and hold threat against more the one monster. Easier to find a bad Paladin who Consecrates, then a decent Warrior or Druid.
Edited, Dec 30th 2007 8:05pm by Warne
Warne wrote:
Yeah, i've made changes to my spec, what blessings and such I take, and i'm still getting killed before the tanks. So i'm just gonna write this whole thing off as bad tanks.
Paladins onry! At least you can still be a ****** as a Paladin and hold threat against more the one monster. Easier to find a bad Paladin who Consecrates, then a decent Warrior or Druid.
Paladins onry! At least you can still be a ****** as a Paladin and hold threat against more the one monster. Easier to find a bad Paladin who Consecrates, then a decent Warrior or Druid.
I think you're learning the wrong lessons from your experiences. I've pugged with Warrior, Druid and Paladin tanks (I'm DPS, Hunter / Rogue). I've had far worse experiences with the Paladins, watching their threat crawl slowly higher until I could finally wade in and start pewpewing. The lesson? The Paladins I ran with weren't very good players.
If you're trying to build PuGs, I don't think too many people will be impressed if you start saying you'll only run with a Pally tank. Might need to get used to seeing your groups disintegrate before you get the tank you're looking for.
Also consider that druids and warriors are more looked for for end-game. Druids for the ability to off-tank and DPS at the same time, and warriors for their insane survivability in a group setting while building tremendous threat on a single target.
Scholar
35 posts
First of all: the statements above about the HoT ticks of a heal on tank before the pull giving threat to the healer are correct. I have been a feral tank tanking my way to level 70 and up to tanking heroics and the occasional offtanking in Kara and for me it was standard procedure on any multimob pull (or any hard hitting single pull for that matter) to throw one or two HoT's on myself.
As suggested above I used furor for rage generation anyway, so the switch from caster to bear was needed and more important the HoT's take the edge of the first hits (so no need for early heavy healing for the main healer) AND the HoT's ticking gave me additional multimob threat (including the lifebloom final bloom). Druids tanking can be very viable even on multimobs, same applies to warriors though they need a bit more time to built threat on multitargets.
Since three months I respecced Resto druid (healing up to heroics and Kara level) and I have had no problems with threat generation on either pally, warrior or druid tank. Starting with a single lifebloom giving extra starting threat (timing it so that most of the ticks occur before the pull or with the tank still not having damage (therefore no threat from the HoT tick) and the bloom falls right after adding to the threat of the tank).
Just take it easy on the healing initially, if the tank (whatever class) is decent geared he/she will not die from the first strikes and will have plenty of time to swipe/ thunderclap etc on the mobs that are not Cced. With none of the types of tanks I have had any issues of threat even with three lifeblooms rolling (ticking around 600 p/s) and the occacional regrowth or rejuv/swiftmend for emergencies.
ONLY when I need to do some heavy AOE healing (in the form of rejuvs on all party members or tranquility, i.e. situations that around three of my party need at least 3-4k health or they will die) I tend to get aggro. If DPS needs constant healing something is usually wrong and most of the time it is not the tank but the DPS overaggroing (not watching their threat meters).
I wonder whether you heal all the dps immedeately after they take damage? I tend to spread out the healing on the dps unless it is an emergency. My prime job is the tank and if i can keep dps alive without pulling too much threat I will do it, if not: you have to ask yourself: what is worse for the group, the dps maybe having to back off a little, use a bandage or even maybe die or you as healer having to heal like crazy cause dps can not control themselves, pull aggro as healer and die (resulting in sure wipe)?
As suggested above I used furor for rage generation anyway, so the switch from caster to bear was needed and more important the HoT's take the edge of the first hits (so no need for early heavy healing for the main healer) AND the HoT's ticking gave me additional multimob threat (including the lifebloom final bloom). Druids tanking can be very viable even on multimobs, same applies to warriors though they need a bit more time to built threat on multitargets.
Since three months I respecced Resto druid (healing up to heroics and Kara level) and I have had no problems with threat generation on either pally, warrior or druid tank. Starting with a single lifebloom giving extra starting threat (timing it so that most of the ticks occur before the pull or with the tank still not having damage (therefore no threat from the HoT tick) and the bloom falls right after adding to the threat of the tank).
Just take it easy on the healing initially, if the tank (whatever class) is decent geared he/she will not die from the first strikes and will have plenty of time to swipe/ thunderclap etc on the mobs that are not Cced. With none of the types of tanks I have had any issues of threat even with three lifeblooms rolling (ticking around 600 p/s) and the occacional regrowth or rejuv/swiftmend for emergencies.
ONLY when I need to do some heavy AOE healing (in the form of rejuvs on all party members or tranquility, i.e. situations that around three of my party need at least 3-4k health or they will die) I tend to get aggro. If DPS needs constant healing something is usually wrong and most of the time it is not the tank but the DPS overaggroing (not watching their threat meters).
I wonder whether you heal all the dps immedeately after they take damage? I tend to spread out the healing on the dps unless it is an emergency. My prime job is the tank and if i can keep dps alive without pulling too much threat I will do it, if not: you have to ask yourself: what is worse for the group, the dps maybe having to back off a little, use a bandage or even maybe die or you as healer having to heal like crazy cause dps can not control themselves, pull aggro as healer and die (resulting in sure wipe)?
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I wonder whether you heal all the dps immedeately after they take damage? I tend to spread out the healing on the dps unless it is an emergency. My prime job is the tank and if i can keep dps alive without pulling too much threat I will do it, if not: you have to ask yourself: what is worse for the group, the dps maybe having to back off a little, use a bandage or even maybe die or you as healer having to heal like crazy cause dps can not control themselves, pull aggro as healer and die (resulting in sure wipe)?
Unless they are hit by an AoE or are very close to dying, you don't have to bother healing them. Assuming the tank is relatively good, it's their fault for not controlling their aggro and letting the mob hit them (1 hit won't kill them, but it tells them to reduce their aggro, and the tank to try to get the mob back). As you said, your prime job is keeping the tank alive.
I read somewhere that if a heal over time is cast before a pull, no threat is generated at all. I decided to test it.
Had someone cast a HoT on me, pulled a mob and let it beat on me. Mob stayed on me. Pulled another mob and let it beat on me, and then had the same person cast the same HoT. Mob went to her.
Granted, it is only one test, but I was convinced that's how it worked... I'll have to test a bit more I guess.
Had someone cast a HoT on me, pulled a mob and let it beat on me. Mob stayed on me. Pulled another mob and let it beat on me, and then had the same person cast the same HoT. Mob went to her.
Granted, it is only one test, but I was convinced that's how it worked... I'll have to test a bit more I guess.
Nuit Midril - White Mage/Scholar on Ultros
Nuit the Insane! - Retired Druid on Sentinels.
Ombre - Retired Dragoon/bard on Phoenix.
8 posts
Something to consider is that a tank usually has a threat modifier so an initial pull using damage for say 100 gives you around 130 threat. Healing (I believe without modifiers) grants 50% threat per point healed so if you heal for 100hp you get 50 threat. To steal aggro you need to hit 110% threat of the person on the top of the list. So if you pull with 100damage (130 threat)then someone needs 143 threat (286 healing) to be able to pull aggro.
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Unless they are hit by an AoE or are very close to dying, you don't have to bother healing them.
True. Keep your DPSers half dead, it makes them tamer :P
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So if you pull with 100damage (130 threat)then someone needs 143 threat (286 healing) to be able to pull aggro.
When I tested I was on my hunter and I did a stink pull, so no threat, or not much. I'm not saying I'm right and you're all wrong, just that my one test didn't yield the same results as yours. I must try again, I probably did something wrong :)
Nuit Midril - White Mage/Scholar on Ultros
Nuit the Insane! - Retired Druid on Sentinels.
Ombre - Retired Dragoon/bard on Phoenix.
Quote:
Something to consider is that a tank usually has a threat modifier so an initial pull using damage for say 100 gives you around 130 threat. Healing (I believe without modifiers) grants 50% threat per point healed so if you heal for 100hp you get 50 threat. To steal aggro you need to hit 110% threat of the person on the top of the list. So if you pull with 100damage (130 threat)then someone needs 143 threat (286 healing) to be able to pull aggro.
3 corrections...
1. A tank in any end-game content (assuming warrior or druid) will generate 145% threat, due to talents. NO warrior or druid should tank end-game without that, as that allows the other DPS to do a lot more damage. So 100 damage pull would be 145 threat.
2. That threat is on the mob that recieved the damage. So unless it's a druid pulling with hurricane, that 145 threat is on one mob. So, if a warrior pulls 4 people, he will have 0 threat on 3 of them, and 145 threat on the 4th. That means that the healer will need 1 threat to pull the 3 adds, and the primary target the healer would need...
3. The amount of threat needed to pull off a target in melee range is 10%. Outside melee range it's 30%. Thus, a healer would need to generate 188.5 threat, or heal 377 damage.
a better way to test it would be to jump down a short cliff then body aggro something after the person HoT's you. the mob will run straight to the person who HoT'ted you.
Or skip the jump, and just unequip/equip a piece of gear with any amount of +stam. Healers in my guild would freak out for a sec when I went from cat to bear gear and my health appeared to drop 20%.
Shattered halls is really the only place where a tank would need to tank more than 2 or 3 mobs at a time. If healing is pulling aggro, the tank sucks. Either he's taking too much damage, or he's not generating enough threat. Generally, new bear druids will suffer from the first, new warriors will suffer from the second. The best thing you can do is start making friends with all the good tanks you pug with. That way, the next time you're looking for a pug, you have a list of good tanks you can ask first.
Shattered halls is really the only place where a tank would need to tank more than 2 or 3 mobs at a time. If healing is pulling aggro, the tank sucks. Either he's taking too much damage, or he's not generating enough threat. Generally, new bear druids will suffer from the first, new warriors will suffer from the second. The best thing you can do is start making friends with all the good tanks you pug with. That way, the next time you're looking for a pug, you have a list of good tanks you can ask first.
One of the main things is to hold off healing for as long as possible to give the tank maximum time to get agro on all mobs. If you heal straight away, then it will be so much harder for they tank to do their job.
This isn't always going to work as there is a lot of bad tanks out there. We had to explain to a level 70 warrior that he had to use Shield Slam, Sunderx5 then Devestate to generate max threat on a single target. Until then, we were pulling agro all over the place. After he started doing that, things ran much more smoothly. I was impressed with him though as he actually took our advice on board and was willing to listen - that is the sign of a good player - be willing to learn.
This isn't always going to work as there is a lot of bad tanks out there. We had to explain to a level 70 warrior that he had to use Shield Slam, Sunderx5 then Devestate to generate max threat on a single target. Until then, we were pulling agro all over the place. After he started doing that, things ran much more smoothly. I was impressed with him though as he actually took our advice on board and was willing to listen - that is the sign of a good player - be willing to learn.
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