Good evening, Ladies and Gents.
It's late, I'm bored, and there's issues with the login server. All in all that adds up to the new guy wondering into the thoroughfare and staring up in wide-eye wonder at all the pros.
I was wondering, if you guys. The rogues as a whole had a say. What would all of you do to improve the class, while in keeping all that is roguish. What changes would you make, while being pragmatic.
Think about our weaknesses against certain classes, you all know the ones. If you could have your opinion voiced what would you do.
If you ask me, I'd like away around resilience. It truly hampers our best quality. Takes away that spark, if you will that makes us rogues, you know rogues.
I understand it's an essential part of the game, and as WoW evolves continues there's going to be more stats implemented to tweak and change how classes fare against one another in pvp. Those of you who come from Everquest know this. In the very beginning it was strength, agility, stamina, armor and resists. then came the advent of strike through, mitigation, evasion.
While adding to the complexity of pvp, while in itself is a good thing. It forces us, the specialist classes, farther and farther a narrow path.
I'm not saying rogues to have a use outside of this. We have plenty, not only that we're a blast to play. And personally the only class I can play without feeling like im slogging through mud.
Just out to get opinions, get the juices flowing if you will. There's more I can think of, more I could dream about. I could be mistaken about everything, just a casual player. Those of you who have some time, and gear under your belt might not even notice or feel as hampered by what I'm rambling on about.
Happy Holidays and All such seasonal cheer.
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The easiest way around resilience is going to be to add a -resilience component to wounding poison.
It makes wounding poison better than MS which it should be, because it's harder to apply and dispelable. Right now it's a joke that wound poison and MS do the same thing, only MS is instant application and wounding is time based as well as the fact that wounding can be removed while MS cannot. And to those who are going to say the trade off is wounding lasts longer... that would be true if the MS cooldown was longer than the duration of the debuff -_-
Edit: This would need to be a talent deep in assassination however, perhaps replace improved poisons with it.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2007 1:28am by Shaolinz
Edited, Dec 23rd 2007 1:28am by Shaolinz
It makes wounding poison better than MS which it should be, because it's harder to apply and dispelable. Right now it's a joke that wound poison and MS do the same thing, only MS is instant application and wounding is time based as well as the fact that wounding can be removed while MS cannot. And to those who are going to say the trade off is wounding lasts longer... that would be true if the MS cooldown was longer than the duration of the debuff -_-
Edit: This would need to be a talent deep in assassination however, perhaps replace improved poisons with it.
Edited, Dec 23rd 2007 1:28am by Shaolinz
Edited, Dec 23rd 2007 1:28am by Shaolinz
I would say make a lot of changes to daggers. Make daggers ignore a percentage of resilience and armor. I would like to see a stun on Ambush, but that might be a little OP. But hey, if someone jumped at me from behind all of a sudden sticking daggers into my back... I might take a little while to get a hold of myself.
I feel like daggers are a more involved playstyle than combat maces, or hemo maces. These changes would encourage dagger use. I'm pretty happy with the changes to ShS and Ambush in the next patch. By the way, does anyone have a date?
I feel like daggers are a more involved playstyle than combat maces, or hemo maces. These changes would encourage dagger use. I'm pretty happy with the changes to ShS and Ambush in the next patch. By the way, does anyone have a date?
An Ambush stun could potentially allow a follow-up backstab. I know some 1337 players can do that anyway, but a stun would make it too easy for certain types of players. It certainly seems OP.
Maybe a talent that gives certain attacks a way around resilience..."your Ambush moves ignored X% of the target's resilience" or somesuch. Perhaps incorporate it into a gear set.
Maybe a talent that gives certain attacks a way around resilience..."your Ambush moves ignored X% of the target's resilience" or somesuch. Perhaps incorporate it into a gear set.
Scholar
25 posts
The biggest thing about daggers is that in actual combat you go for weakspots in armor or on the person in general. To be really fair and just having the daggers themselves actually ignore a percentage of resilence would actually make more sense from a realistic combat viewpoint. Making the wound poison work a little better is also a huge plus. Because I have looked at alot of rogues and for the most part the L33T rogues go for a 0/31/30 and that will probably still continue after that nerf. A CB Hemo build is really nice I worked with that, plus having prep to allow for more nasty hits is great too.
Really there are only a couple small changes that could be made classwise to benefit rogues. For the game to be "balanced" in terms of pvp or even pve Blizz will have to look at everything as a whole check out all the data and see what they are doing to the classes to make them less fun. Sure when Warriors were oneshotting people before resilence came out classes whinned and Warriors were like, "Holy crap I just dropped him hard." So Blizz gave Rogues envenom to ignore the retarded armor of a warrior and hit that blood hard. Then the resilence hits the crit precentage and damage so our happy crits became pellet gun pew pew hits.
When we play against other classes or even with other classes the biggest thing that we have to do is find a way with our own unique playstyles to become effective again rather than go with cookie cutter specs, styles, gear, and rotations. I think that is what is killing us the most. We gotta stop comparing ourselves to other classes as much. Sure droods at this point can remove our poisons, shift out of stuns, and deal some nasty damage in melee. The reason why is because before the recent changes in the druid class feral was a tough way to go, the great respec allowed them to get some new blood on their fangs and they love it.
So in short basically for rogue changes we need the dagger weapons reworked heavily, resilence needs to stick around to make the other classes live just a tad bit longer, but a complete rebalance of the game would be really nice. A change of Mutilate for assassin rogues, surprise attacks is great but the hybrid combat is were its at, and ShS is really cool the way it is going to be, but most people will use swords or maces. And this is not coming from a whinning standpoint with the class. I enjoy the way rogues opperate, we just need to work on OUR playing rather than looking at some other skilled players to mimic off of.
(and I know there are tons of grammar, spelling, and just general mistakes to my post, but its 5:30 am and I really don't feel like editing it.)
Really there are only a couple small changes that could be made classwise to benefit rogues. For the game to be "balanced" in terms of pvp or even pve Blizz will have to look at everything as a whole check out all the data and see what they are doing to the classes to make them less fun. Sure when Warriors were oneshotting people before resilence came out classes whinned and Warriors were like, "Holy crap I just dropped him hard." So Blizz gave Rogues envenom to ignore the retarded armor of a warrior and hit that blood hard. Then the resilence hits the crit precentage and damage so our happy crits became pellet gun pew pew hits.
When we play against other classes or even with other classes the biggest thing that we have to do is find a way with our own unique playstyles to become effective again rather than go with cookie cutter specs, styles, gear, and rotations. I think that is what is killing us the most. We gotta stop comparing ourselves to other classes as much. Sure droods at this point can remove our poisons, shift out of stuns, and deal some nasty damage in melee. The reason why is because before the recent changes in the druid class feral was a tough way to go, the great respec allowed them to get some new blood on their fangs and they love it.
So in short basically for rogue changes we need the dagger weapons reworked heavily, resilence needs to stick around to make the other classes live just a tad bit longer, but a complete rebalance of the game would be really nice. A change of Mutilate for assassin rogues, surprise attacks is great but the hybrid combat is were its at, and ShS is really cool the way it is going to be, but most people will use swords or maces. And this is not coming from a whinning standpoint with the class. I enjoy the way rogues opperate, we just need to work on OUR playing rather than looking at some other skilled players to mimic off of.
(and I know there are tons of grammar, spelling, and just general mistakes to my post, but its 5:30 am and I really don't feel like editing it.)
Wound poison is one of the single most broken parts of 5 man 4 DPS setups.
It's infinitely more powerful because druids are craptacular in that arena bracket, as opposed to 2s and 3s.
A rogue spamming shiv with WP OH will constantly keep a target at -50% healing all the time; a warrior can't do that.
Something that will never happen is something removing or ignoring a % of the other person's resilience/armor/HP. Inverse scaling is not a mechanic in WoW.
What could be done, though, is that every application of WP removes 50 resilience from your target, effectively giving you 250 less resilience on your target.
What I'd rather see is that mut and BS ignore ~250 resilience at all times, though. Put the burst back into daggers.
It's infinitely more powerful because druids are craptacular in that arena bracket, as opposed to 2s and 3s.
A rogue spamming shiv with WP OH will constantly keep a target at -50% healing all the time; a warrior can't do that.
Something that will never happen is something removing or ignoring a % of the other person's resilience/armor/HP. Inverse scaling is not a mechanic in WoW.
What could be done, though, is that every application of WP removes 50 resilience from your target, effectively giving you 250 less resilience on your target.
What I'd rather see is that mut and BS ignore ~250 resilience at all times, though. Put the burst back into daggers.
Add resilience ignore to Find Weakness. Isn't that exactly what it should be doing anyway?
Quote:
It makes wounding poison better than MS which it should be, because it's harder to apply and dispelable.
thats good shao. lets compare a talented, 31-pt, cooldown-possessing ability with an untalented one (that ignores BoP no less). as if that wasnt enough, lets also make the claim that an untalented ability that every rogue has regardless of what spec they are should be stronger than a talented ability (and a deep one at that!).
just fyi, im oozing sarcasm from my pores here.
more seriously, of the ideas listed here, having daggers ignore a certain amount of resilience and/or armor is the idea i like best. or better yet, mutilate/ambush/backstab specifically ignoring resilience (instead of daggers as a whole). this limits it to a rogue-only thing (not like any other class might use daggers in pvp, but still) and takes the edge off of the skills hurt most by the lessened effect of burst damage. i agree that daggers is a more involved playstyle than most other rogue builds, and in pvp something should be done to encourage that. id also like to see some kind of armor penetration applied to daggers, since theyre supposed to be the weapons that a crafty opponent uses to penetrate thru an enemies defenses and attack the vitals.
I know the temptation is always, always to give more burst damage or ignore more Resilience, but what about sustainability and survival?
Give Rogues an "on-crit" ability like most other classes get, somewhere deep in Assassination. Maybe it gives you some free Energy and/or a combo point (probably on a shortish timer so you don't get crit three times by some piddly weapons and go from zero energy to full), maybe it reduces incoming damage or increases your evasion (physical and magical) or... well, whatever.
Give Rogues an "on-crit" ability like most other classes get, somewhere deep in Assassination. Maybe it gives you some free Energy and/or a combo point (probably on a shortish timer so you don't get crit three times by some piddly weapons and go from zero energy to full), maybe it reduces incoming damage or increases your evasion (physical and magical) or... well, whatever.
RPZip wrote:
I know the temptation is always, always to give more burst damage or ignore more Resilience, but what about sustainability and survival?
Give Rogues an "on-crit" ability like most other classes get, somewhere deep in Assassination. Maybe it gives you some free Energy and/or a combo point (probably on a shortish timer so you don't get crit three times by some piddly weapons and go from zero energy to full), maybe it reduces incoming damage or increases your evasion (physical and magical) or... well, whatever.
Give Rogues an "on-crit" ability like most other classes get, somewhere deep in Assassination. Maybe it gives you some free Energy and/or a combo point (probably on a shortish timer so you don't get crit three times by some piddly weapons and go from zero energy to full), maybe it reduces incoming damage or increases your evasion (physical and magical) or... well, whatever.
I like the idea of a "cheat death" ability that doesn't proc when you're about to die.
It'd need adjusting so that it wasn't a 90% damage reduction, something more like 75% would be more reasonable, IMO.
There needs to be a reason to not go for a DPS class first. Every other class has one except for rogues because we're so squishy and vulnerable.
Quote:
thats good shao. lets compare a talented, 31-pt, cooldown-possessing ability with an untalented one (that ignores BoP no less). as if that wasnt enough, lets also make the claim that an untalented ability that every rogue has regardless of what spec they are should be stronger than a talented ability (and a deep one at that!).
just fyi, im oozing sarcasm from my pores here.
just fyi, im oozing sarcasm from my pores here.
Did you catch the edit Quor, where I said that we should make it a talented ability in assassination or did you just forget about that part?
And don't start about making untalented abilities better than talented ones. One word: shadowstep.
Theophany the Sly wrote:
RPZip wrote:
I know the temptation is always, always to give more burst damage or ignore more Resilience, but what about sustainability and survival?
Give Rogues an "on-crit" ability like most other classes get, somewhere deep in Assassination. Maybe it gives you some free Energy and/or a combo point (probably on a shortish timer so you don't get crit three times by some piddly weapons and go from zero energy to full), maybe it reduces incoming damage or increases your evasion (physical and magical) or... well, whatever.
Give Rogues an "on-crit" ability like most other classes get, somewhere deep in Assassination. Maybe it gives you some free Energy and/or a combo point (probably on a shortish timer so you don't get crit three times by some piddly weapons and go from zero energy to full), maybe it reduces incoming damage or increases your evasion (physical and magical) or... well, whatever.
I like the idea of a "cheat death" ability that doesn't proc when you're about to die.
It'd need adjusting so that it wasn't a 90% damage reduction, something more like 75% would be more reasonable, IMO.
There needs to be a reason to not go for a DPS class first. Every other class has one except for rogues because we're so squishy and vulnerable.
To be fair, Hunters don't (besides Dett, but Rogues come with Evasion) but the point is pretty valid. I guess for melee classes there's Bestial Wrath but it doesn't have much deterrence factor for casters.
I think it'd work nicely as a deep Assassination build since you wouldn't be able to combine it with Prep. 70% reduction on-crit would be way too powerful, though; even 25% might be pushing it, unless you tied it to a decent length timer.
10 posts
What i think a half decent 31 point talent for sub might be is when your the victim of a crit, you gain say 30% chance to dodge for maybe 5 secs? Doesnt really help out too much against casters but against a melee type this would be huge, maybe a bit much but a start.
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