howdy. former career paladin here. Just thought I would share what I've learned about the oft naysayed/used to be doomed to failure retribution tree.
Its no secret. It could use some work. It seems to have gotten 'some' things done since I left the world though. But my topic is not about that. It's about your gear.
Because you can have the most perfect ret tree in the world, but your gear makes you, well you. (same with prot really but up til 60+ a prot guy can tank with little to no defense gear, just high armor/stamina...i had to do it pre-bc)
Before I go on, I have to add that to be a good retribution paladin, it will take a lot of research and pre-planning your character, or meta/powergaming, unlike holy paladins who can just run through the game not really having to worry about "will this piece of gear improve me?" because chances are it will, by default.
For the most part your gear at first will resemble that of a warrior, this is pre-60 of course. There are very few articles of clothing that will resemble the gear you will need at 60+. This may confuse a lot of folks when they actually do encounter gear that looks like paladin. Cutting this short, you're gonna want str/sta/int/crit or agi gear while leveling up to 60. unfortunately the best and maybe only way to achieve this is through pvp, arathi basin armor and wsg jewelry, as folks will generally turn you away from instance groups unless you're willing to bear it down and heal or tank. (because theres no real specific healadin or tank gear either leveling up, so it should be doable even for ret, but keep your group aware of that) Skipping to 60, your pre-bc or even now ideal gear will be the lvl 60 epic pvp set(the one with str/sta/crit/int/damage&healing), or judgement items if you're lucky to get folks to run onyxia/bwl. It has high armor too in case you have to tank(or offtank most likely) hellfire ramparts or some other early bc dungeon, with some of the entry level bc quest items of course. At 60 with the pvp set, you may feel like a melee god, who can and should still support their team with your many many abilities, heals buffs stuns sleep shields.
Oh, keep a 1h and shield on you at all times too. If not for the fluff reason, you aren't always gonna be smiting evil with your big hammer, especially in groups. You are a paladin, not the retribution tree only. Keep yourself ready for anything.
so...60+, after seeing what real ret gear looks like with the pvp epic set, you're again going to be confused, because well, the quest rewards are warrior/tank/healer gear mainly. While leveling you might find yourself with dps warrior gear again which unfortunately will gimp your holiness side, so less casts of seals and heals for you. (i.e. your main form of damage/support, which is mana, of course by this point you should know that.) Try to keep a balance of that dps war gear and the occasional paladin plate that you will get. Ya need the int to dps along with the str. so you're leveling up probably respecced your talent trees a bunch by now trying to perfect it to your current situation and whatnot. So you hit 70. Woo, grats, what now? With your current gear, you are most likely in no way shape or form ready to do the high end 5-mans(see:tempest keep/shadow labyrinth/heroics/shattered halls) and you're gonna need a flying mount too. Guess what is looming over your head ilke a shadow again. Pvp or respec time. Unfortunately respeccing out of ret may be a fact of life while leveling and even at 70 if that's what you ultimately choose to be. You'll notice that the pvp gear is all blue. Thats ok. The stats are still solid and still has high str/sta/int/crit/damage/healing, though probably not in the same quantities or proportions that you may have been accustomed to with your 60 epic set. So after looking at that, you may notice the gladiator epic sets. THAT is what you want for ret dps at the end(unless you're in a guild who happens to not care what your spec is and still wants you to raid with them and get that T5-6 stuff) Unfortunately that(gladiator) is a metric ton of work to achieve and may warrant you going holy, the tree you probably so desparately tried to avoid, or prot, something you may have considered and maybe tried while leveling. Holy because people flock to you for arena teams because you will apparantly be the best healer/support around, and prot to surprise those who will specifically target you because of said heal/support potential, so it takes a half hour(exaggeration) for people to kill you while you're healing.)
Of course first you're gonna have to learn the ropes of all your talent trees if you want to be successful at 70+ retribution. meaning you'll most likely be respeccing, A LOT(ret/holy, ret/prot and variations of), and carrying 2 or 3 sets of gear for normal play(ret/healbot/(off)tankbot), along with your raid resists gear.
The glimmer of hope for regular instance drops is in fact armor that looks like Red Lawbringer(but is not an actual set). While not the best of the instance drops for you, it's a good solid base for a ret paladin, or someone who wants to dabble as a generalist. Also various trinkets and rings that are oddly enough, paladin'esque or emphasise melee dps for any class. another way to buff yourself up if you haven't already done so while leveling, is enchanting! Enchant your gear often and efficiently with stats. Whether it's yourself, or a friend who can. Also, MAKE FRIENDS! you will get nowhere in world of warcraft endgame, especially as retribution spec, if you just go through solo or silent instance hopping your entire life.
Retribution relies more on gear than any other spec in the game. Even fury warriors can go from dps to tank with minimal gear changes. Whereas ret has to change their entire appearance. Remember that. Also remember, again that you are not just the retribution tree. You are a paladin, so it is your duty, no matter your talent spec, in groups and pvp to support your allies along with smashing faces that you love to do. whether it be repentancing/stunning healers and casters, blessing everyone with...well blessigns, or keeping that mage alive so he can pom pyroblast that unsuspecting rogue to death so you can get honor points instead of that rogue getting 2 free kills, or the flag, and you can get the gear to smash faces the best that you can.
Edited, Dec 22nd 2007 1:10pm by Gukagim
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- serious topic for retribution *long post*
serious topic for retribution *long post*Follow
I think the biggest problem in holding an actual debate or conversation about Ret is experience in end game.
You have one group of players who have never made it beyond Mag or an 1700 arena rating talking about how ret is viable. Then you have people who have downed Vashj and who have pushed 2k rating and have seen how Ret falls apart at high end game.
Ret doesn't hold up, it has issues with gear well into t5 and beyond, in Arena the gear sets for s1 and s2 make Ret perhaps one of the weakest arena classes in the game at a high end level along with the lack of efficient heals/cc or reliable burst dps. It might be able to compete on dps for a non aggro fight like Aran and you might be able to post screens shots but really, it is Aran, content that was old 8 months ago, you get to Leotheras and you find the hard way where Ret fails.
Like RPzip stated its not as horrible as a lot of people make it out to be, however neither is it in anyway great. When you get to the highly competitive world of min/max t6 raiding or top scoring arena ret is no good. Perhaps one per raid but entirely not necessary and they will never compete with a rogue and dont offer enough buffs/support to justify the low dps.
You have one group of players who have never made it beyond Mag or an 1700 arena rating talking about how ret is viable. Then you have people who have downed Vashj and who have pushed 2k rating and have seen how Ret falls apart at high end game.
Ret doesn't hold up, it has issues with gear well into t5 and beyond, in Arena the gear sets for s1 and s2 make Ret perhaps one of the weakest arena classes in the game at a high end level along with the lack of efficient heals/cc or reliable burst dps. It might be able to compete on dps for a non aggro fight like Aran and you might be able to post screens shots but really, it is Aran, content that was old 8 months ago, you get to Leotheras and you find the hard way where Ret fails.
Like RPzip stated its not as horrible as a lot of people make it out to be, however neither is it in anyway great. When you get to the highly competitive world of min/max t6 raiding or top scoring arena ret is no good. Perhaps one per raid but entirely not necessary and they will never compete with a rogue and dont offer enough buffs/support to justify the low dps.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Oh and just to state is not low DPS. Never has been.
Even with the threat reduction Ret pallies are still hitting the threat cap and not competing. As I have mentioned we do have a almost fully t5 Ret pally in our guild, the guy who plays him is very solid and is an extremely knowledgeable player. I don't often give out praise, especially to ret pallies so you know I am not just kissing ***.
He comes into a raid and he does respectable, not in the top 5 dps but he places as best he can. Often it is not the fact that he isnt able to damage but he still has to hold back less he grab aggro. No vanish, feign death, soul shatter etc during a long fight can mess him up.
So once again you can almost take gear out of the equation for pve and realize that there is a definite threat cap that will always keep them mid level dps no matter what the gear.
Even with the threat reduction Ret pallies are still hitting the threat cap and not competing. As I have mentioned we do have a almost fully t5 Ret pally in our guild, the guy who plays him is very solid and is an extremely knowledgeable player. I don't often give out praise, especially to ret pallies so you know I am not just kissing ***.
He comes into a raid and he does respectable, not in the top 5 dps but he places as best he can. Often it is not the fact that he isnt able to damage but he still has to hold back less he grab aggro. No vanish, feign death, soul shatter etc during a long fight can mess him up.
So once again you can almost take gear out of the equation for pve and realize that there is a definite threat cap that will always keep them mid level dps no matter what the gear.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
bodhisattva wrote:
Oh and just to state is not low DPS. Never has been.
Even with the threat reduction Ret pallies are still hitting the threat cap and not competing. As I have mentioned we do have a almost fully t5 Ret pally in our guild, the guy who plays him is very solid and is an extremely knowledgeable player. I don't often give out praise, especially to ret pallies so you know I am not just kissing ***.
He comes into a raid and he does respectable, not in the top 5 dps but he places as best he can. Often it is not the fact that he isnt able to damage but he still has to hold back less he grab aggro. No vanish, feign death, soul shatter etc during a long fight can mess him up.
So once again you can almost take gear out of the equation for pve and realize that there is a definite threat cap that will always keep them mid level dps no matter what the gear.
Even with the threat reduction Ret pallies are still hitting the threat cap and not competing. As I have mentioned we do have a almost fully t5 Ret pally in our guild, the guy who plays him is very solid and is an extremely knowledgeable player. I don't often give out praise, especially to ret pallies so you know I am not just kissing ***.
He comes into a raid and he does respectable, not in the top 5 dps but he places as best he can. Often it is not the fact that he isnt able to damage but he still has to hold back less he grab aggro. No vanish, feign death, soul shatter etc during a long fight can mess him up.
So once again you can almost take gear out of the equation for pve and realize that there is a definite threat cap that will always keep them mid level dps no matter what the gear.
Have him update his version of Omen (older versions haven't updated for the new talent changes), or get better tanks.
The Retadin threat cap is now the came as Cat Druids, Rogues (sans-Vanish) and Fury Warriors, and 10% better than Arms Warrior. If it's a significantly limiting issue your tanks are doing something wrong.
agree with RPZip. the threat scaling for pallies should be a non-issue now. rolling S3 in a regular Mech group would be cause for an aggro monkey. but if the tank and pally are appropriately geared for raids and the pally gave the alloted wait time, TPS and DPS should work out nicely...with room for some trinks and AW.
on the note of min/max. ***** ret pally and rogues, ima just load my raid with warlocks for dps. they seem the most versatile and most capable. who needs raid buffs when you got CoE(Curse of Everything).
on the note of min/max. ***** ret pally and rogues, ima just load my raid with warlocks for dps. they seem the most versatile and most capable. who needs raid buffs when you got CoE(Curse of Everything).
while the nit-picking i enjoyed, i did not intend for this post to be a "ret is uber" or "ret is teh suck" one. Just a realistic unbiased account of things that are.
:) keep discussing
:) keep discussing
RPZip wrote:
The Retadin threat cap is now the came as Cat Druids, Rogues (sans-Vanish) and Fury Warriors, and 10% better than Arms Warrior.
Feint (Rogue)? True it eats energy, but it lets you push a bit if you're out TPSing the tank.
You can't really make a realistic unbiased account of things that are and have us discuss it. There's nothing to discuss that hasn't been discussed a jillion times. You just wrote a huge post about what things are instead of what you would like them to be. Nor is it a counterpoint to something else.
To me it's like you just posted something that said "The sky is blue" and then told us to discuss that. This is just going to turn into another "Ret is viable, ret isn't viable for raids/pvp discussion which there has already been hundreds of them scattered throughout the archives.
So... forgive me if I'm missing the point but.... what is it?
To me it's like you just posted something that said "The sky is blue" and then told us to discuss that. This is just going to turn into another "Ret is viable, ret isn't viable for raids/pvp discussion which there has already been hundreds of them scattered throughout the archives.
So... forgive me if I'm missing the point but.... what is it?
tabstopper wrote:
RPZip wrote:
The Retadin threat cap is now the came as Cat Druids, Rogues (sans-Vanish) and Fury Warriors, and 10% better than Arms Warrior.
Feint (Rogue)? True it eats energy, but it lets you push a bit if you're out TPSing the tank.
Assuming you're in a raid, Feint is like trying to stop a wildfire with a small glass of water. It doesn't do... well, much of anything. It's okay (barely) in five-mans since the threat generation/damage output are much lower, but it's jack-all in a raid.
man long post about that mythical spec "ret" i think the name is : P
Woo I can spec DPS and people congratulate me for being #6 on dps!
Sorry, unless you're waaay over geared, ret pales in comparison to ANY pure dps class. I have never seen a ret paladin (with gear equal to everyone else) EVER... I mean EVER compete for top DPS in a raid. It just hasn't happened. The problem with ret is the same problem with dps warriors (just ask them how often they get the nerf stick, infinite rage to no rage anyone?), if you give ret DPS topping abilities, they will just destroy everyone in PvP. I think everyone here can agree with me that Blizzard tries their hardest not to allow any one class to completely dominate in PvP. Because of the way ret works (more burst than sustained, as opposed to say... a warlock) the only way to make ret do more DPS in raids would be to increase its overall damage. Again, because they are so burst, if you increase their damage and make the burst do more, you're going to 1-shot people in PvP (or potentially can anyway) and Blizzard, from the start of BC, has been trying to make it where noone can kill another person that quickly (ie. increasing HP drastically at 70 compared to 60), and increasing ret DPS would go completely against that. So increasing damage aside, how can you increase someone's raid DPS? Reduce the threat they generate, and Blizzard did that in a recent patch. However, since ret is still burst more than sustained, while they stopped pulling as much aggro, they still haven't climbed any higher in the DPS charts, nor will they any time soon.
I close this wall of text with 'lawl ret'.
Sorry, unless you're waaay over geared, ret pales in comparison to ANY pure dps class. I have never seen a ret paladin (with gear equal to everyone else) EVER... I mean EVER compete for top DPS in a raid. It just hasn't happened. The problem with ret is the same problem with dps warriors (just ask them how often they get the nerf stick, infinite rage to no rage anyone?), if you give ret DPS topping abilities, they will just destroy everyone in PvP. I think everyone here can agree with me that Blizzard tries their hardest not to allow any one class to completely dominate in PvP. Because of the way ret works (more burst than sustained, as opposed to say... a warlock) the only way to make ret do more DPS in raids would be to increase its overall damage. Again, because they are so burst, if you increase their damage and make the burst do more, you're going to 1-shot people in PvP (or potentially can anyway) and Blizzard, from the start of BC, has been trying to make it where noone can kill another person that quickly (ie. increasing HP drastically at 70 compared to 60), and increasing ret DPS would go completely against that. So increasing damage aside, how can you increase someone's raid DPS? Reduce the threat they generate, and Blizzard did that in a recent patch. However, since ret is still burst more than sustained, while they stopped pulling as much aggro, they still haven't climbed any higher in the DPS charts, nor will they any time soon.
I close this wall of text with 'lawl ret'.
I really think the major problems with ret seem to be:
1. Poor representation in the 60-70 zone, particularly in gear.
2. A generally bad reputation because lots of new players spec ret because it's "cool" to DPS, and because they're new they're still bad at it.
3. It just doesn't do the same level of damage that more specialised and less durable classes like mages or rogues do, whilst also being unable to provide the utility of a holy or prot paladin at the end-game level. This is similar to Bodhi's observation of the shockadin; to experienced players, it's a case of "why bother?"
But as the Cpt. pointed out, this, like a lot of other topics, has probably been read over dozens and dozens of times with slight variations in the facts. Little about ret has changed since day 1. This is mainly because WoW seems to become a specialist's game when you hit the level cap, which makes hybrid classes like paladins and druids mostly relegated to healing in PvP. Versatility is a boon when grinding from 10-60, where you might be asked to tank one fight or heal another and your portfolio is thus more desirable, but once you're in a guild of several hundred doing 20-man raid instances, you can always find someone who does that particular job better than you, especially with so many other DPS classes or specs flying about.
1. Poor representation in the 60-70 zone, particularly in gear.
2. A generally bad reputation because lots of new players spec ret because it's "cool" to DPS, and because they're new they're still bad at it.
3. It just doesn't do the same level of damage that more specialised and less durable classes like mages or rogues do, whilst also being unable to provide the utility of a holy or prot paladin at the end-game level. This is similar to Bodhi's observation of the shockadin; to experienced players, it's a case of "why bother?"
But as the Cpt. pointed out, this, like a lot of other topics, has probably been read over dozens and dozens of times with slight variations in the facts. Little about ret has changed since day 1. This is mainly because WoW seems to become a specialist's game when you hit the level cap, which makes hybrid classes like paladins and druids mostly relegated to healing in PvP. Versatility is a boon when grinding from 10-60, where you might be asked to tank one fight or heal another and your portfolio is thus more desirable, but once you're in a guild of several hundred doing 20-man raid instances, you can always find someone who does that particular job better than you, especially with so many other DPS classes or specs flying about.
Chocolate is still my favorite flavor of pie.
if gear is the issue, then why not just Build a ret pally to wear leather. shouldnt it have higher DPS stats due to its lack of armor?
just because you can wear plate, doesnt mean you have to, you shouldnt need it if your DPS.
but, something tells me i just made a really stupid suggestion. . . O4L! (orange for life)
just because you can wear plate, doesnt mean you have to, you shouldnt need it if your DPS.
but, something tells me i just made a really stupid suggestion. . . O4L! (orange for life)
i've always mixed in some mail pieces. but when you start collecting class specific sets its plate or nothing.
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
if gear is the issue, then why not just Build a ret pally to wear leather. shouldnt it have higher DPS stats due to its lack of armor?
just because you can wear plate, doesnt mean you have to, you shouldnt need it if your DPS.
but, something tells me i just made a really stupid suggestion. . . O4L! (orange for life)
just because you can wear plate, doesnt mean you have to, you shouldnt need it if your DPS.
but, something tells me i just made a really stupid suggestion. . . O4L! (orange for life)
Exact same total stats between Leather and Plate. The armor is 'free' in terms of item budget.
Of course, you can usually find pieces of leather/mail that are _better_ than the equivalent plate because of the stats that are put on it, but it's not inherently weaker because of the armor or anything.
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