In your FAQ you say
"1.1.3 Should I roll a warrior or a paladin?
The counter-question to this is... what do you want to do?
If you want to tank and only tank, a warrior is probably for you. You can get good gear and talents to take hits from the strongest, most bad-*** enemies in the game. More raiding guilds will prefer a Warrior tank, although a Paladin tank is not unheard of in end-game raids."
However, a lot of the responses I got in my other thread suggest that Paladins are just as good at tanking 5-man instances as Warriors, perhaps even better? So was your original quote just outdated, have things changed over time, or am I misunderstanding. My only goal with this second character of mine is to Tank instances to gain levels and loot, and at lvl 70 Tank for Heroic instances. I don't see myself doing large raids ever. (maybe 1 or 2 in the lifespan of the character)
So is Warrior still a "better" tank? Also, keep in mind a lot of my running may be done with PUGs.
Thanks for the Captain, and anyone else who can shed some light on this.
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No, that statement was made with the current Paladin in mind (though before the latest major patch mind you). It has a couple of meanings:
1) If all you want to do is tank, Warrior is the better bet as they have 2 roles: DPS and tank. They are the best tanks in the game all things considered and are by some still thought of as the only 'viable' tank in the game. Someone thinks Warrior, they automatically think tank. Someone thinks Paladin they won't always, if ever, think tank and may very well question or laugh at you for being such.
Paladins though have all 3 roles available to them, so if you want to be more flexible, Paladin is the better choice because there is more you can do (respeccing for Holy to heal or DPS, soloing group quests with ease, farming lower level instances with ease, etc..)
2) Warriors have since day one been tailor made to tank. That is their purpose, and while a Fury and/or Arms Warrior can surely put out respectable DPS, their primary role/purpose is to be the squishy guy's meat-shield. They take less damage than other tanks, have more abilities for tanking that do a wider variety of things, and don't have the "new kid" stigma that Paladins, and even to some extent Druids, have.
Now that the statement in question has been addressed, a response tailor made to your situation:
Paladins are hands down the best 5-man tanks. Our tanking abilities revolve around damage done to multiple targets making the need for CC in most cases null-and-void. Our Taunt is even tailored around AOE by having such a long range and affecting up to 3 targets at a time, while a Warrior needs to be in melee range to Taunt and it only affects one target at a time, barring their Shout which has a much longer CD. Paladins also bring a set of buffs with them that another group member may not have making them able to fill a bit of a support role while tanking. To top if off, if things go bad a Paladin can at times last through any remaining mobs and rez the group on their own where a Warrior can not, or DI the healer to prevent a long run back to the instance. Also a quick heal-to-full can sometimes make the difference between victory and death.
Where Paladins lack a bit to Warriors is in staving off damage. Warriors can use Demo Shout, Thunder Clap, and they have a higher damage reduction in their Defensive Stance then we do with our RF active. They can also go immune to fear making some fights much much simpler (read as Nightbane, that first boss in Shadow Labyrinth, etc..), have an easier time with caster mobs, Spell Reflect, Shield Wall, and some other cool moves along with a faster/higher single target threat gain.
As one who would be doing mostly 5-mans, and with PuGs, I would advise a Paladin over Warrior.
1) If all you want to do is tank, Warrior is the better bet as they have 2 roles: DPS and tank. They are the best tanks in the game all things considered and are by some still thought of as the only 'viable' tank in the game. Someone thinks Warrior, they automatically think tank. Someone thinks Paladin they won't always, if ever, think tank and may very well question or laugh at you for being such.
Paladins though have all 3 roles available to them, so if you want to be more flexible, Paladin is the better choice because there is more you can do (respeccing for Holy to heal or DPS, soloing group quests with ease, farming lower level instances with ease, etc..)
2) Warriors have since day one been tailor made to tank. That is their purpose, and while a Fury and/or Arms Warrior can surely put out respectable DPS, their primary role/purpose is to be the squishy guy's meat-shield. They take less damage than other tanks, have more abilities for tanking that do a wider variety of things, and don't have the "new kid" stigma that Paladins, and even to some extent Druids, have.
Now that the statement in question has been addressed, a response tailor made to your situation:
Paladins are hands down the best 5-man tanks. Our tanking abilities revolve around damage done to multiple targets making the need for CC in most cases null-and-void. Our Taunt is even tailored around AOE by having such a long range and affecting up to 3 targets at a time, while a Warrior needs to be in melee range to Taunt and it only affects one target at a time, barring their Shout which has a much longer CD. Paladins also bring a set of buffs with them that another group member may not have making them able to fill a bit of a support role while tanking. To top if off, if things go bad a Paladin can at times last through any remaining mobs and rez the group on their own where a Warrior can not, or DI the healer to prevent a long run back to the instance. Also a quick heal-to-full can sometimes make the difference between victory and death.
Where Paladins lack a bit to Warriors is in staving off damage. Warriors can use Demo Shout, Thunder Clap, and they have a higher damage reduction in their Defensive Stance then we do with our RF active. They can also go immune to fear making some fights much much simpler (read as Nightbane, that first boss in Shadow Labyrinth, etc..), have an easier time with caster mobs, Spell Reflect, Shield Wall, and some other cool moves along with a faster/higher single target threat gain.
As one who would be doing mostly 5-mans, and with PuGs, I would advise a Paladin over Warrior.
Thank you very much for that insightful answer. While I imagine I will try a Warrior in the future, my next character is going to be a Tank. I was planning on Dranei, but actually am considering Dwarf now instead, is that difference negligible? Human is out as my main is a human and I want a different race for my Tank.
Really it comes down to who's *** you want to see most or don't mind seeing least as you're gonna have to look at it for a long time ;)
Racials are generally considered "fluff" for the most part and won't make or break the game for you. Though, some can make various things easier. On the one hand Draenei have an innate +1% chance to hit, for you AND the party. Hit rating is not something you want to work towards as a Paladin tank, and while very little of your DPS/threat will come from striking the target with your Weapon, doing so 1% more often is still nothing to scoff at. You still have your Seal to 'worry' about which you gotta hit the target for it to do anything, and you will miss sometimes. Outside of that, their racials won't help you much as a tank (the HoT can be nice, but while casting it you can't Block or Parry so chances are you're taking more damage then you could heal with it).
Dwarves on the other hand have Stoneform, "While active, grants immunity to Bleed, Poison, and Disease effects. In addition, Armor increases by 10%. Lasts 8 sec. - 3 min cooldown" This can be helpful in many instances giving you a little more damage reduction, and maybe saving you from a nasty effect. What comes to mind right off is that bleed effect from Rokmar in Slave Pens that doesn't go away till you are fully healed.
So, between those 2 if racials was to be your deciding factor, I'd have to say that Dwarves have the upper hand.
Racials are generally considered "fluff" for the most part and won't make or break the game for you. Though, some can make various things easier. On the one hand Draenei have an innate +1% chance to hit, for you AND the party. Hit rating is not something you want to work towards as a Paladin tank, and while very little of your DPS/threat will come from striking the target with your Weapon, doing so 1% more often is still nothing to scoff at. You still have your Seal to 'worry' about which you gotta hit the target for it to do anything, and you will miss sometimes. Outside of that, their racials won't help you much as a tank (the HoT can be nice, but while casting it you can't Block or Parry so chances are you're taking more damage then you could heal with it).
Dwarves on the other hand have Stoneform, "While active, grants immunity to Bleed, Poison, and Disease effects. In addition, Armor increases by 10%. Lasts 8 sec. - 3 min cooldown" This can be helpful in many instances giving you a little more damage reduction, and maybe saving you from a nasty effect. What comes to mind right off is that bleed effect from Rokmar in Slave Pens that doesn't go away till you are fully healed.
So, between those 2 if racials was to be your deciding factor, I'd have to say that Dwarves have the upper hand.
From what I've seen, it's not the class that is a better tank, it's the player. I've run 5-mans with both warriors and pally tanks. Had crappy ones from both classes, and outstanding ones from both classes.
Each one brings their own skills to the table. All the Pally benefits that Maulgak listed are true, but you will get just as long a list from a warrior forum. My recommendation is to try them both, and see which you like better. You can get each one to lvl 20 very quickly - and go to Deadmines (for Alliance) or Wailing Caverns (Horde).
I actually just started a warrior alt, and they have a rediculous amount of threat generating abilities. Much more than a Pally. Of course, that means that you'll need a lot more skill to play them too.
Each one brings their own skills to the table. All the Pally benefits that Maulgak listed are true, but you will get just as long a list from a warrior forum. My recommendation is to try them both, and see which you like better. You can get each one to lvl 20 very quickly - and go to Deadmines (for Alliance) or Wailing Caverns (Horde).
I actually just started a warrior alt, and they have a rediculous amount of threat generating abilities. Much more than a Pally. Of course, that means that you'll need a lot more skill to play them too.
YJMark wrote:
From what I've seen, it's not the class that is a better tank, it's the player.
A good point: a crappy player is going to be a crappy tank regardless of whether they are Warrior or Paladin. On the flip side, a great player may not make a great tank as Warrior, as Paladin, or as either one. It takes practice and a knowledge of the class to be good at it. Both take just as much skill, just one has less buttons to remember :)
And, skill being equal, a Warrior is better is more what I was referring to.
YJMark wrote:
My recommendation is to try them both, and see which you like better. You can get each one to lvl 20 very quickly - and go to Deadmines (for Alliance) or Wailing Caverns (Horde).
While this is a good idea, and I concur if you wish to try this route, it isn't going to give you a perfect look at how the classes compare to each other. Why? A Warrior's tanking abilities are mostly untalented and he starts gaining them early on. A Paladin on the other hand gets most of his tanking abilities through talents and so won't start getting them until later on. At 20 a Paladin is missing key spells that make them a tank namely Holy Shield (level 40).
Good point Maulgak.
OK - create a Pally and Warrior, and level them to 50 :)
The point I was tyring to make is that if someone wants to be a tank, it doesn't really matter if they are a warrior or pally (or druid). All 3 classes can tank well if they are played well. The key is to learn to play your class (like you said).
If you want to tank, and also be able to heal, and last forever, then roll a pally.
If you want to tank, and hit for massive damage, then roll a warrior.
If you want to tank, and shapeshift for healing, DPS, or whatever, then roll a druid.
Either way, just have fun doing it.
OK - create a Pally and Warrior, and level them to 50 :)
The point I was tyring to make is that if someone wants to be a tank, it doesn't really matter if they are a warrior or pally (or druid). All 3 classes can tank well if they are played well. The key is to learn to play your class (like you said).
If you want to tank, and also be able to heal, and last forever, then roll a pally.
If you want to tank, and hit for massive damage, then roll a warrior.
If you want to tank, and shapeshift for healing, DPS, or whatever, then roll a druid.
Either way, just have fun doing it.
YJMark wrote:
I actually just started a warrior alt, and they have a rediculous amount of threat generating abilities. Much more than a Pally.
hmm, to single targets, i agree. but get a group of 5 mobs around a warrior and tell me a warrior can even come close to the threat a pally can put on every mob around him. pallys allow dpsers to be a lot more free with aoe atacks. which is why they're the king of the 5-mans. the single target threat and HP and not being able to be feared amd interruptsn and spell reflect, etc are what make a warrior the oft-prefered raid tank.
I agree with you. A warrior is limited in their AoE threat generation, and have to make up for it will a bazillion single target abilities. Hence, they "have a rediculous amount of threat generating abilities".
That is all I was saying.
That is all I was saying.
I kinda feel bad not responding to a post directed at me, but I was asleep when it was posted and since then have speant the morning waking up, getting ready and heading to work.
It looks like Maul explained it pretty well, but just to sum up...
If you want to be a really good PuG tank and only ever plan on doing 5-mans, a Paladin is probably best because they have the best AoE tanking tools.
If you want to eventually raid and be a main tank there, a Warrior is probably best because they have the best Single target tanking tools.
It looks like Maul explained it pretty well, but just to sum up...
If you want to be a really good PuG tank and only ever plan on doing 5-mans, a Paladin is probably best because they have the best AoE tanking tools.
If you want to eventually raid and be a main tank there, a Warrior is probably best because they have the best Single target tanking tools.
Paladins, if you've read my posts, I believe are the third best tanks. There are situations where paladins shine, such as:
Karazhan - Tanking Moroes without CC
SSC - Picking up the 4 spawns after a bog lord dies
TK - Pulling 10 dragon hawks in a corner and tanking them all (with someone spamming dispel on you to remove silence)
Hyjal - You really shine on trash (they're undead)
That having said, from my experience warriors or druids still have better single target (ie. bosses) TPS and a warrior having last stand has saved more raids than I can count. Heck it saved us last night on Illidan. (Oh and don't forget the static 10% damage reduction of defensive stance) Blizzard designed the warrior class from the start to be the main tanking class, and really designed many of the boss fights around having a warrior as main tank. There are situations for bot druid and paladin that tanking is iffy at best (can be done but is harder than doing it with a warrior) but there aren't any situations that are iffy for warriors and better for the other two.
Karazhan - Tanking Moroes without CC
SSC - Picking up the 4 spawns after a bog lord dies
TK - Pulling 10 dragon hawks in a corner and tanking them all (with someone spamming dispel on you to remove silence)
Hyjal - You really shine on trash (they're undead)
That having said, from my experience warriors or druids still have better single target (ie. bosses) TPS and a warrior having last stand has saved more raids than I can count. Heck it saved us last night on Illidan. (Oh and don't forget the static 10% damage reduction of defensive stance) Blizzard designed the warrior class from the start to be the main tanking class, and really designed many of the boss fights around having a warrior as main tank. There are situations for bot druid and paladin that tanking is iffy at best (can be done but is harder than doing it with a warrior) but there aren't any situations that are iffy for warriors and better for the other two.
Thanks again for the advice, and if anyone wants to add anything I still do read this thread multiple times a day. It sounded to me like Paladins are better for 5-man PUG instances, which is my main intention, and the posts from most of you seem to support that.
I'd love to raid, as they seem fun, but I just don't ever see myself having that much time to commit 100% to WoW at one sitting as things often come up and I wouldn't want to let a team down by leaving them short a MT. If I ever do end up raiding then I guess I'll have to learn how to either off-tank or heal with my Paladin so I can be a part of it.
If anyone is on Turalyon be warned a new Dwarf Paladin is coming to town. (one who probably will suck at first lol)
I'd love to raid, as they seem fun, but I just don't ever see myself having that much time to commit 100% to WoW at one sitting as things often come up and I wouldn't want to let a team down by leaving them short a MT. If I ever do end up raiding then I guess I'll have to learn how to either off-tank or heal with my Paladin so I can be a part of it.
If anyone is on Turalyon be warned a new Dwarf Paladin is coming to town. (one who probably will suck at first lol)
Quote:
There are situations for bot druid and paladin that tanking is iffy at best (can be done but is harder than doing it with a warrior) but there aren't any situations that are iffy for warriors and better for the other two.
like to see warrior tanking 7-10 mobs with mages aoeing with no problems in dungeons.
ie pulling 2-3 rooms in armory
pulling 1 group in brd before the big rock guy then have a pat come close and have to pull them also.
yes warrior and druid have better single target but i still love my pally tanking than my warrior. cc sucks half the time ya get rogues who sap then just start meleeing mobs.
alot easier and faster to just say stay back let me pull attack skull then kill what ever you want.
icemandarekthanius wrote:
If I ever do end up raiding then I guess I'll have to learn how to either off-tank or heal with my Paladin so I can be a part of it.
Not necessarily. If you're good and have an understanding guild that will allow you're spec, you could tank in those raids. Karazhan is ridiculously easy for a Paladin to tank in and I'd hate to go into Zul'Aman without a Paladin tanking (the gauntlet before Akil'zon and various mob packs that spring out of nowhere :P). More than likely you'll be the second tank with a Warrior at the helm, but that doesn't mean your job is any less important/fun.
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