A few of us in our guild should be Kara-attuned by the end of this week. We'll be doing our first run of Kara with cooperation from another guild similar to ours soon after.
We're trying to figure out what classes and also how many of each class to have as an optimal make-up for the first few runs. We do have enough keyed-people that we should be able to pick and choose a little. There's already a little bit of controversy about how many healers to bring, tanks etc....
Any help would be appreciated.
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First of all you need tank.
Any but geared well enough - be it Protection Warrior, Feral Druid or even rare Tankadin.
You need OT as well. For this place you can take DPS warrior who has Tank gear set or feral Druid.
Thats about it as tanking is concerned.
Next - healing.
3 healers with preferably at least 1 palla.
So far we have 5 men. Rest is DPS.
This depends on classes already in. If OT is a DPS warrior you can skip DPS warriors for those 5 spots. If OT is druid and/or healer is druid you dont need third one but DPS warrior can be nice. If none healer is priest - take shadow priest for sure. You can take s priest even if one of heales is priest anyway to make Moroes easier, but you can use other CC as well.
If none of the healers is shaman you can consider taking DPS shaman especially if you take MS warrior with you.
It is nice to have shackle, sheep, trap, banish all avialable but not really a must have rule.
As you see there are no strict rules really. Skill/gear should be taken into consideration...
Example 1
1 Main Tank - Warrior - Protection
2. OT DPS warrior - Arms/Fury
3 Healer - Holy Palla
4. Healer - Resto Druid
5 Healer - Priest
6 DPS - Mage
7 DPS Warlock
8 DPS Rogue
9. DPS Shaman
10. DPS Hunter
Example 2
1. Druid - MT
2. DPS warrior OT
3. Palla - healer
4. Palla - healer
5. Shaman - healer
6. Shadow priest - DPS
7. Mage - DPS
8. Warlock - DPS
9. Rogue - DPS
10. Hunter - DPS
Edited, Dec 19th 2007 9:29am by Krisss
Any but geared well enough - be it Protection Warrior, Feral Druid or even rare Tankadin.
You need OT as well. For this place you can take DPS warrior who has Tank gear set or feral Druid.
Thats about it as tanking is concerned.
Next - healing.
3 healers with preferably at least 1 palla.
So far we have 5 men. Rest is DPS.
This depends on classes already in. If OT is a DPS warrior you can skip DPS warriors for those 5 spots. If OT is druid and/or healer is druid you dont need third one but DPS warrior can be nice. If none healer is priest - take shadow priest for sure. You can take s priest even if one of heales is priest anyway to make Moroes easier, but you can use other CC as well.
If none of the healers is shaman you can consider taking DPS shaman especially if you take MS warrior with you.
It is nice to have shackle, sheep, trap, banish all avialable but not really a must have rule.
As you see there are no strict rules really. Skill/gear should be taken into consideration...
Example 1
1 Main Tank - Warrior - Protection
2. OT DPS warrior - Arms/Fury
3 Healer - Holy Palla
4. Healer - Resto Druid
5 Healer - Priest
6 DPS - Mage
7 DPS Warlock
8 DPS Rogue
9. DPS Shaman
10. DPS Hunter
Example 2
1. Druid - MT
2. DPS warrior OT
3. Palla - healer
4. Palla - healer
5. Shaman - healer
6. Shadow priest - DPS
7. Mage - DPS
8. Warlock - DPS
9. Rogue - DPS
10. Hunter - DPS
Edited, Dec 19th 2007 9:29am by Krisss
Thanks for the quick answer.
What I can say so far is that we will have:
2 Prot-Warriors available for tanking
2 Holy Priests
1 Holy Palli
1 Ret Palli
1 Mage
This will be our 'constant' group, with others added-in as required.
Is there anything here that we're truly missing that we should be on the lookout for?
What I can say so far is that we will have:
2 Prot-Warriors available for tanking
2 Holy Priests
1 Holy Palli
1 Ret Palli
1 Mage
This will be our 'constant' group, with others added-in as required.
Is there anything here that we're truly missing that we should be on the lookout for?
This is our usual group setup:
1. MT - Prot Warrior
2. OT - Prot Warrior (me)
3. Healer - Pally
4. Healer - Pally
5. Healer - Priest
6. DPS - Lock
7. DPS - Lock
8. DPS - Hunter
9. DPS - Shammy
10. DPS - Rogue or Pally
The DPS we usually swap in and out with others online. We've recently got a few more keyed so tonight we'll have a Mage dps and a Shadow Priest. So far we've been up to Prince but we're only on a 2 night a week Raid Schedule. We're not a hardcore, every night, raid guild and do great with what we have.
With only one group running so far usually after we down a boss we swap people in so they can get rep and drops for the next boss. Usually keeping the core 5 as they are and just moving around the DPS.
Edited, Dec 19th 2007 11:43am by Scolariman
1. MT - Prot Warrior
2. OT - Prot Warrior (me)
3. Healer - Pally
4. Healer - Pally
5. Healer - Priest
6. DPS - Lock
7. DPS - Lock
8. DPS - Hunter
9. DPS - Shammy
10. DPS - Rogue or Pally
The DPS we usually swap in and out with others online. We've recently got a few more keyed so tonight we'll have a Mage dps and a Shadow Priest. So far we've been up to Prince but we're only on a 2 night a week Raid Schedule. We're not a hardcore, every night, raid guild and do great with what we have.
With only one group running so far usually after we down a boss we swap people in so they can get rep and drops for the next boss. Usually keeping the core 5 as they are and just moving around the DPS.
Edited, Dec 19th 2007 11:43am by Scolariman
jaylexx wrote:
Thanks for the quick answer.
What I can say so far is that we will have:
2 Prot-Warriors available for tanking
2 Holy Priests
1 Holy Palli
1 Ret Palli
1 Mage
This will be our 'constant' group, with others added-in as required.
Is there anything here that we're truly missing that we should be on the lookout for?
What I can say so far is that we will have:
2 Prot-Warriors available for tanking
2 Holy Priests
1 Holy Palli
1 Ret Palli
1 Mage
This will be our 'constant' group, with others added-in as required.
Is there anything here that we're truly missing that we should be on the lookout for?
Well, you're seriously lacking DPS. The mage is fine, but even with the recent changes to Ret, your Ret pally is going to be laughable if he's just getting attuned. Unless he's got top-end PvP/Arena gear (read: vindicator and vengeful gladiator gear), his DPS is going to be far less than a pure DPS class. He will bring some utility and a second buff, so it will depend on the rest of your group.
Fortunately for you've got the tanking and healing covered, which are often the most difficult spots to fill. The rest of the DPS doesn't really matter that much. Rogues, locks, druids, shamans, hunters or mages can be used to fill any of those spots.
Keep in mind that many of the fights in Kara tend to favor ranged over melee DPS.
Scholar
18 posts
Obviously you'll need a tank and some healing.
As a slightly under-geared kara tank, I was able to successfully tank Prince the first week with 2 holy paladins and a holy priest. Paladins are the best single target healers, I believe, and having two was great for keeping me alive through phase 2.
Priests seem to be better at healing multiple targets, so the priest was good at healing any random damage to dps.
If your tank is fairly well-geared already, may only need two healers. I believe a holy paladin is required almost no matter what, though.
As far as DPS goes, it seems like most fights in kara (and in wow in general) are biased towards ranged dps.
As a slightly under-geared kara tank, I was able to successfully tank Prince the first week with 2 holy paladins and a holy priest. Paladins are the best single target healers, I believe, and having two was great for keeping me alive through phase 2.
Priests seem to be better at healing multiple targets, so the priest was good at healing any random damage to dps.
If your tank is fairly well-geared already, may only need two healers. I believe a holy paladin is required almost no matter what, though.
As far as DPS goes, it seems like most fights in kara (and in wow in general) are biased towards ranged dps.
I strongly recomend using only 1 protection warrior in Kara raid.
Second is overkill and lowers DPS of the raid.
DPS warrior can sucesfully OT all that is needed to be OT in Kara and he can do great damage when OT is not needed.
If you have 2 warriors with decent tanking gear I would either recomend recruiting DPS warrior or feral druid or to choose one of yours warriors as MT (activity/skill/gear) and let the other to respec Fury or Arms (33/28 31/30).
If you feel that your OT has not good enough gear to OT Moroes you can respec Fury/protection or Arms /Protection.
In fights like Bad Wolf, Maiden, Curator,Prince, Nightbane, Ilhoof, Netherspite you don't need OT so second protetcion warrior will be pretty much useless during those fights.
Aran does not need any tank at all. I knew guilds which swaped their tank for some additional DPS just before Aran fight when they were strugling to down him.
As for Retri palla - hmm I have never been in any raid with one but the common opinion is they are not doing well...
Second is overkill and lowers DPS of the raid.
DPS warrior can sucesfully OT all that is needed to be OT in Kara and he can do great damage when OT is not needed.
If you have 2 warriors with decent tanking gear I would either recomend recruiting DPS warrior or feral druid or to choose one of yours warriors as MT (activity/skill/gear) and let the other to respec Fury or Arms (33/28 31/30).
If you feel that your OT has not good enough gear to OT Moroes you can respec Fury/protection or Arms /Protection.
In fights like Bad Wolf, Maiden, Curator,Prince, Nightbane, Ilhoof, Netherspite you don't need OT so second protetcion warrior will be pretty much useless during those fights.
Aran does not need any tank at all. I knew guilds which swaped their tank for some additional DPS just before Aran fight when they were strugling to down him.
As for Retri palla - hmm I have never been in any raid with one but the common opinion is they are not doing well...
Well, as for the Ret-Pally comments....sometimes you don't have much of a choice, the consensus among our family-type guild is that we'd never dump a guildmate out of a raid/group due to people's opinion about their particular spec. This ret-palli has always been either 1st or 2nd in our 5-man groups...side by side with a lock. He is outfitted with mostly epic pvp gear and does pretty good dps. Plus he worked just as hard as everyone else to get attuned.
One of our warriors is full-out prot, sitting with 14k armor and 13k hp's Myself the OT am sitting at a 33/5/22 build but still with 14k armor and just over 12k hp's & 508 defense in def-stance.
We will continue to keep our eyes out for ranged dps, and will give it our best when we get to Kara ( Ret-Palli and all) thanks for all the help.
One last thing, is there any thorough walk-through/guides to kara besides what I can see in WowWiki ?
Thanks again
Edited, Dec 20th 2007 8:07am by jaylexx
One of our warriors is full-out prot, sitting with 14k armor and 13k hp's Myself the OT am sitting at a 33/5/22 build but still with 14k armor and just over 12k hp's & 508 defense in def-stance.
We will continue to keep our eyes out for ranged dps, and will give it our best when we get to Kara ( Ret-Palli and all) thanks for all the help.
One last thing, is there any thorough walk-through/guides to kara besides what I can see in WowWiki ?
Thanks again
Edited, Dec 20th 2007 8:07am by jaylexx
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Cheers and gl!
Cheers and gl!
jaylexx wrote:
Well, as for the Ret-Pally comments....sometimes you don't have much of a choice, the consensus among our family-type guild is that we'd never dump a guildmate out of a raid/group due to people's opinion about their particular spec. This ret-palli has always been either 1st or 2nd in our 5-man groups...side by side with a lock. He is outfitted with mostly epic pvp gear and does pretty good dps. Plus he worked just as hard as everyone else to get attuned.
As long as he's got epic level 70 PvP gear, then he should be fine. The reason that I questioned him was because you made it sound like you guys had all just reached 70. Ret doesn't work in a mix of blue and green gear. It's one of the most gear dependent specs out there.
I'm also in a casual guild that doesn't dictate people's specs for raiding. It's fine if that's what you're looking for, but I can tell you this: We've progressed MUCH slower than we would have if we did ask people to spec for raiding. You'll be fine as long as you don't mind struggling a little, because a certain group makeup is required even in Kara. It's hard to take people that don't pull their weight into a 10 man raid, unless some of the people far outgear the instance.
jaylexx wrote:
One of our warriors is full-out prot, sitting with 14k armor and 13k hp's Myself the OT am sitting at a 33/5/22 build but still with 14k armor and just over 12k hp's & 508 defense in def-stance.
It sounds like your MT is geared enough to start Kara. However, as others have mentioned, 2 prot tanks is overkill especially after the first few bosses. If you're willing to put together a DPS set, you'd be much better off speccing for DPS, and just off tanking when needed. Feral druids make the best Kara OTs, as they can tank and DPS even on the same pull.
Good luck!
-Camel
Personally, I'd say you really only need 3 healers if they're a bit inexperienced or really undergeared. Whenever my guild runs it (that's our main raid, currently) we typically go with this group:
1 Prot warrior (me)
1 prot pally/'lock/hunter (two people who play on the same computer, and so which we get depends on what we need)
1 ferall druid (doesn't like to tank but will if need be)
1 elemental shammy
2-3 rogues
1 resto druid
1 holy priest
1 hunter/holy pally (depending on if one of the other 2 healers isn't here)
1 mage
Or something to that extent, and we usually clear all of Kara (optionals aside, we do that on another night) in one night.
1 Prot warrior (me)
1 prot pally/'lock/hunter (two people who play on the same computer, and so which we get depends on what we need)
1 ferall druid (doesn't like to tank but will if need be)
1 elemental shammy
2-3 rogues
1 resto druid
1 holy priest
1 hunter/holy pally (depending on if one of the other 2 healers isn't here)
1 mage
Or something to that extent, and we usually clear all of Kara (optionals aside, we do that on another night) in one night.
healer-wise, you want one healer for each tank, and one raid healer, so three healers at the most. four if you are really, really, really having trouble keeping a tank alive and the rest of your dps is amazing. i find that druids make great raid healers, as they can just slap a few HoT's on a dpser and move on to the next one.
second/third/fourth w/e the sentiment on not having two prot tanks. the OT can easily spec 31/5/25 for arms dps or 8/41/12 for DW fury dps, providing that he is raid viable with his tanking gear (12k hp/13k armor/30% avoidance/20% block/490 def for bosses). the basic tenets of these dps specs still hold true: arms dps is far less gear-intensive than fury dps, but once you have the gear, fury dps all the way.
Edited, Dec 20th 2007 10:47pm by fromanthebarbarian
second/third/fourth w/e the sentiment on not having two prot tanks. the OT can easily spec 31/5/25 for arms dps or 8/41/12 for DW fury dps, providing that he is raid viable with his tanking gear (12k hp/13k armor/30% avoidance/20% block/490 def for bosses). the basic tenets of these dps specs still hold true: arms dps is far less gear-intensive than fury dps, but once you have the gear, fury dps all the way.
Edited, Dec 20th 2007 10:47pm by fromanthebarbarian
Some fights are good for ranged dps, some are harder. Shade of aran, is super super easy with a well balanced melee dps group.
1 DPS war (OT possible?)
1 Rogue
1 Ehn Shaman
1 feral druid (OT possible?)
Alone this makes for a wonderful DPS group. Throw in a hunter with imp hunters mark or a ret pali (it helps overall dps). Group synergy is important. It's hard to get all angles covered, but it is possible.
But for initial going into kara, it is heavily slanted towards ranged DPS.
1 shad priest
2 locks
1 boomkin
1 elemental shaman
is wicked dps.
Of course 1 MT position should be a prot/feral spec character. you need 3 healers, and having a 4th off heal (dps party healer) like a shaman, or shad priest, really makes things that much easier. Having another character than can OT is necessary.
1 DPS war (OT possible?)
1 Rogue
1 Ehn Shaman
1 feral druid (OT possible?)
Alone this makes for a wonderful DPS group. Throw in a hunter with imp hunters mark or a ret pali (it helps overall dps). Group synergy is important. It's hard to get all angles covered, but it is possible.
But for initial going into kara, it is heavily slanted towards ranged DPS.
1 shad priest
2 locks
1 boomkin
1 elemental shaman
is wicked dps.
Of course 1 MT position should be a prot/feral spec character. you need 3 healers, and having a 4th off heal (dps party healer) like a shaman, or shad priest, really makes things that much easier. Having another character than can OT is necessary.
I have to say (again :P) that I really don't like having 3 yyhealers unless it's absolutely neccessary. Ideally, I'd say, you want 2 heal-specced healers and maybe an off healer (such as a DPS shammy or a spriest).
i'd def. try to add a shadow priest to your group. A warlock is great too.
Pretty much you're looking at
2 tanks [1 mt/ 1 ot]
3 healers
5 dps
Most common groups I've seen for DPS are
mage
rogue
s-priest
hunter
enh sham or warlock
elemental shammies and ret paladins are terrible for dps until they get gear. If they're sitting in the top tier of PVP items they will do well like someone mentioned above, but otherwise... don't really depend on them to start out kara with.
as far as tanks and healing goes, doesn't really matter what classes are there. I've seen paladins mt the whole instance (without OT's). Druids mt the whole instance (without ot's) and warriors as well. I would say though that 2 prot warriors is way overkill for kara. Have him pick up some decent heroic / pvp gear and go dps, but start collecting prot gear as well for 25 mans and hopefully soon, a 2nd kara group.
Pretty much you're looking at
2 tanks [1 mt/ 1 ot]
3 healers
5 dps
Most common groups I've seen for DPS are
mage
rogue
s-priest
hunter
enh sham or warlock
elemental shammies and ret paladins are terrible for dps until they get gear. If they're sitting in the top tier of PVP items they will do well like someone mentioned above, but otherwise... don't really depend on them to start out kara with.
as far as tanks and healing goes, doesn't really matter what classes are there. I've seen paladins mt the whole instance (without OT's). Druids mt the whole instance (without ot's) and warriors as well. I would say though that 2 prot warriors is way overkill for kara. Have him pick up some decent heroic / pvp gear and go dps, but start collecting prot gear as well for 25 mans and hopefully soon, a 2nd kara group.
Surely Rouge is an essential part of any make-up bag?
Yeah, Yeah, Rate me down on the Friday before Christmas. I know that EVERYONE else wanted to make that joke.
Yeah, Yeah, Rate me down on the Friday before Christmas. I know that EVERYONE else wanted to make that joke.
I'm very happy to hear that it won't be necessary for me to spec full-prot, and that I can stay with my 33/5/22 build for the moment. I can let the full-prot warrior take up MT duties and I will just OT.
I'm working on both gear-sets, with emphasis on the dps set at the moment since my tank set meets the requirements of Kara tanking (except the dodge/parry 30%, I think I'm sitting at 28% atm)
And about the Ret-Palli, he's not freshly lvl 70. He doesn't have a green on him, and is about 80% decked out in pvp/arena dps gear....so I'm not too worried about his damage output.
My god, I never thought I'd say this but: our biggest concern is ranged dps !
How often do you hear that?
I'm working on both gear-sets, with emphasis on the dps set at the moment since my tank set meets the requirements of Kara tanking (except the dodge/parry 30%, I think I'm sitting at 28% atm)
And about the Ret-Palli, he's not freshly lvl 70. He doesn't have a green on him, and is about 80% decked out in pvp/arena dps gear....so I'm not too worried about his damage output.
My god, I never thought I'd say this but: our biggest concern is ranged dps !
How often do you hear that?
quite often.
I hope for your/your paladins sake that it's not s1 gear :/
I hope for your/your paladins sake that it's not s1 gear :/
48 posts
Our group setup is pretty much always the same :
MT - prot pally
OT - DPS warrior
Healer1 - Holy Paly
Healer2 - Resto Druid
Healer3 - Holy Priest
DPS1 - Warlock
DPS2 - Warlock
DPS3 - Shadowpriest
DPS4 - Mage
DPS5 - Hunter (sometimes Rogue)
We do Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera and Curator, then switch the prot pally for a prot warrior and the holy priest for a paly or a shaman (chain heal on nightbane is damn useful)
MT - prot pally
OT - DPS warrior
Healer1 - Holy Paly
Healer2 - Resto Druid
Healer3 - Holy Priest
DPS1 - Warlock
DPS2 - Warlock
DPS3 - Shadowpriest
DPS4 - Mage
DPS5 - Hunter (sometimes Rogue)
We do Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera and Curator, then switch the prot pally for a prot warrior and the holy priest for a paly or a shaman (chain heal on nightbane is damn useful)
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