Here it is. Tired of seeing all these tree's with wasted points. I have and will always be BM. I have tweaked my shot rotations, changed my talents, and after many raids have concluded without a doubt that this is the best distribution and shot rotation for maximum dps.
After hitting 135 hit rating I focus mainly on agility and crit in that order. Unbuffed crit is roughly 31%. Unbuffed AP is roughly 1650.
I start out with arcane shot and multi when on the move. When I plant my feet I go strictly to a spammable macro that shoot kill command when available and spam steady shot. Kill command and steady will weave perfectly inbetween your auto shots, never clipping them. This maximizes your dps potential and is the most mana efficient rotation available.
When I try to use arcane and multi it starts to clip auto shots and negatively affects overall dps. So only in situations where a boss has more then one target, or I am moving will I ever use multi or arcane.
This spec is for raiding without a SP in your party and is most efficient for daily grinding and pvp. It still is geared mainly for raid DPS.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?5320020050501224310510505201205000000000000000000000000000000000
(oops forgot to add the last 5 points in MM before editing =))
If you do have a great SP in your group this tree is the most DPS overall (it is the only spec I placed number one after 4 hours in SSC). I do not run with it because I like having mana while farming and do not want to switch talents every raid ( we always have SP's for the hunters).
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/hunter/talents.html?5320020050501224310510550201205000000000000000000000000000000000
So yes, when I am standing still pew pewing a boss who has no adds. I only use kill command, steady, and auto and yes it is the most efficient manawise and after 5-10 minutes does the most damage.
Please feel free to ask questions and post your concerns.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:19pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:19pm by ithikul
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Chill man, there is more to being a hunter then 'top dps'. Push buttons for the fun of seeing something sparkly fly across you screen, whatever. Enjoy yourself. Killing yourself to get a tiny more dps will not make that much of a difference in the end. You mentioned SSC for example, most if not all are strategy driven rather then dps checks.
I use the first as my BM leveling spec, and for grinding and farming pre-kara.
For your second spec, if I was organizing a raid, the SP will be with my 4 healers with the biggest mana conservation issues.
As SV, if you use a AS/SS/Arc/Multi w/ Kill Command, or something to that effect, your gaining the most DPS, and if you add in EW, it would benefit the raid.
What you are saying is that you want the total raid DPS/Success to be lower because you want the SP in your group, and you aren't using EW. A raid is going to have a BM and SV hunter both anways though.
Another thing that you are suggesting, you said that you are going to be going really inefficient on mana, but as BM you're only going to be using an AS/SS rotation, so compared to SV (lets just say without ToTH), which is using a AS/SS/Arc/MS rotation, you are loosing more mana (no math needed).
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:32pm by Yuppley
For your second spec, if I was organizing a raid, the SP will be with my 4 healers with the biggest mana conservation issues.
As SV, if you use a AS/SS/Arc/Multi w/ Kill Command, or something to that effect, your gaining the most DPS, and if you add in EW, it would benefit the raid.
What you are saying is that you want the total raid DPS/Success to be lower because you want the SP in your group, and you aren't using EW. A raid is going to have a BM and SV hunter both anways though.
Another thing that you are suggesting, you said that you are going to be going really inefficient on mana, but as BM you're only going to be using an AS/SS rotation, so compared to SV (lets just say without ToTH), which is using a AS/SS/Arc/MS rotation, you are loosing more mana (no math needed).
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:32pm by Yuppley
First off, you wasted points in the last one, imp mend pet is better than the health.
Also efficiency should always be in your build. When I'm at 10% and lower mana and switch to Viper I don't go oom even with using every shot I have.
SV helps the raid more than BM.
Also efficiency should always be in your build. When I'm at 10% and lower mana and switch to Viper I don't go oom even with using every shot I have.
SV helps the raid more than BM.
Thanks for your criticism. I am 'chilled'. Since hunters are pure DPS I just figured posting an article explaining how I have maximized my dps would help others. Yes I have fun. Yes I love this spec. Yes bosses need strategy, ok pretty sure that is unspoken.
Ah yea, since I have two pieces of t5 and I do have a SP in my raids I guess I have never thought of using Imp Mend Pet. My pets also run with full arcane and nature resist. I don't build their armor or hit points at all.
Oh we also run with 3 shadow priests. Of course if there were ever two I would be the the lowest priority on it but SP's do fearsome DPS and there are lots of them in successful raids.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:45pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:47pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:55pm by ithikul
Ah yea, since I have two pieces of t5 and I do have a SP in my raids I guess I have never thought of using Imp Mend Pet. My pets also run with full arcane and nature resist. I don't build their armor or hit points at all.
Oh we also run with 3 shadow priests. Of course if there were ever two I would be the the lowest priority on it but SP's do fearsome DPS and there are lots of them in successful raids.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:45pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:47pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 4:55pm by ithikul
Yes!! Awesome article!
I use a KC/SS/AS rotation... how is that less mana efficient then adding multi and arcane in there? Those two shots are the most dps/mana efficient shots we have and KC everyone should use regardless of what spec....
ithikul wrote:
hunters are pure DPS
No, in that sentence I don't think that you were talking about just raiding, ever hear of CC? And Survival?
As I said in my previous post, and as Darigraz said about mana efficiency, don't go with Imp Mark. That is about helping the raid, and you said that you wanted more DPS, and more mana efficiency is better for that.
In that part about SPs, you are saying that you would be the lowest priority, and you would probably switch back to your other spec, which is better, and more mana efficient, and would give you more DPS (not counting the SP this time).
If you did respec, that would mean that the shadow priest would go with another group or something, and since you would be more mana efficient, it would be increasing the raids DPS, and yours, most likely more than Imp Mark.
I see no reason for you "maximum DPS" build, especially when there are only minor differences between the two in the first place, so why not just not go to the spec with Efficiency? It seems to cover everything that would be good in a raid: increasing your own DPS, increasing your mana efficiency, giving a SP to a more needing group, etc.
EDIT: To your last post, I wrote that for SV, with efficiency, with the talent effecting more shots, you would be gaining more mana efficiency, and as SV, it would benefit the raid.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 5:02pm by Yuppley
WTB Shadow priests
My guild only has one and it sucks lol, seems like i always end up in a diff group obviously lol, although i did get grouped with her in gruul's and it was amazing, i never droped below 80% mana haha.
Nice guide though, rate up if i could :)
My guild only has one and it sucks lol, seems like i always end up in a diff group obviously lol, although i did get grouped with her in gruul's and it was amazing, i never droped below 80% mana haha.
Nice guide though, rate up if i could :)
To clarify my first post. I use the first spec mainly. I am pretty sure I noted that. I have used the other albeit breifly because between raiding I have to farm gold to pay for raiding. Vicious cycle and the second tree just makes for too much mana water consumption but since my pet is 25-28% of my overall dps in raids the extra 120 AP he gets from Improved hunters Mark is noticeable over the course of a full raid day. I doubt I will ever respec to the second tree again unless I only raid with my hunter and end up farming with some alt but I seriously doubt that happens. Hunters are farming beasts.
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. You say that Imp. Mark is benefiting your pet, do you have any data on your DPS on the raid you did with the DPS spec vs the one you did with the Mana Eff. spec? Just curious.
It's a well written OP, but I think the negative comments are stemming from the fact that the tone of it (intentional or not) kinda says "this is how to be a hunter". That's not exactly true.
It's a good way to boost a Hunter's individual DPS yes, and to any Hunter wanting to do that, it's a good post, but there IS more to being a good Hunter than pew pew. There are other rotations than AS/SS (I'm not including KC as all Hunters should use it and it's too unpredictable to truely be part of a rotation) Although I will concede that it's probably the best for BM Hunters.
Personally when I'm in a raid setting, I'd rather think about "our" DPS rather than "my" DPS as being the most important.
It's a good way to boost a Hunter's individual DPS yes, and to any Hunter wanting to do that, it's a good post, but there IS more to being a good Hunter than pew pew. There are other rotations than AS/SS (I'm not including KC as all Hunters should use it and it's too unpredictable to truely be part of a rotation) Although I will concede that it's probably the best for BM Hunters.
Personally when I'm in a raid setting, I'd rather think about "our" DPS rather than "my" DPS as being the most important.
Rasen, I don't know if you were directing that to me (as I did critique his post), and, not to point out the obvious, but, what you say is true, and in this thread:
and, as you said yourself
Yuppley wrote:
it would benefit the raid;That is about helping the raid;it would benefit the raid
Darigraz wrote:
helps the raid
and, as you said yourself
Rasen wrote:
I'd rather think about "our" DPS rather than "my" DPS as being the most important.
.
Ugh sorry I was getting riled up =)
Since I run with a SP who just does retarded DPS it only makes sense that 120 more AP on my beast is going to improve my overall DPS. Efficiency only keeps my mana allowing me more sustained (over time) DPS and less potting. I rarely if ever have to pot with a SP in my group.
Now saying I do not have a SP in my group, efficiency is definately a much better choice for sustained and overall DPS because you can keep up your rotation without having to go Viper for much longer periods. Less Viper means more AotH.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 5:30pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 5:34pm by ithikul
Ugh sorry I was getting riled up =)
Since I run with a SP who just does retarded DPS it only makes sense that 120 more AP on my beast is going to improve my overall DPS. Efficiency only keeps my mana allowing me more sustained (over time) DPS and less potting. I rarely if ever have to pot with a SP in my group.
Now saying I do not have a SP in my group, efficiency is definately a much better choice for sustained and overall DPS because you can keep up your rotation without having to go Viper for much longer periods. Less Viper means more AotH.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 5:30pm by ithikul
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 5:34pm by ithikul
I could use this clarification as well. Does a SV bring more agility to the whole raid or just their party? Being BM of course brings 3% extra dmg to my party which is usually the other hunters and Mage and SP? If SV brings about 150 Agi (ours does) to whole raid I can see that being very beneficial indeed. Does it stack like Ferocious Inspiration?
ithikul wrote:
I could use this clarification as well. Does a SV bring more agility to the whole raid or just their party? Being BM of course brings 3% extra dmg to my party which is usually the other hunters and Mage and SP? If SV brings about 150 Agi (ours does) to whole raid I can see that being very beneficial indeed. Does it stack like Ferocious Inspiration?
To the whole raid.
No, it doesn't stack if I remember correctly. Hence most guilds having one dedicated Survival hunter.
SV doesn't give the raid any agility. What EW does is give the mob a debuff that increases everybody's AP 25% of the SV Hunter's AGI against that target. So, if the SV Hunter has 800AGI, everyone attacking that target would have an AP boost of 200.
And Yuppley, my post was directed at the OP. Just to say that he hadn't written a bad post and there's a lot of truth to it, it's just not the whole truth.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 6:05pm by Rasen
And Yuppley, my post was directed at the OP. Just to say that he hadn't written a bad post and there's a lot of truth to it, it's just not the whole truth.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 6:05pm by Rasen
The Hunter is only for DPS is a commonly held belief. Doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just a commonly held belief.
I would just be careful of walking out into a crowd and stating "My way is the only way!" That might net you a few black eyes.
The simple truth is, to each his/her own. Just like there are the mini-maxers of every thousandth of a percentage point in theorycraft, there are the Huntards (and they seem to greatly outnumber the Theorycrafters!) Neither one of those camps can claim to be 'having more fun'. The melee huntard may very well be having a blast while the theorcrafter is bored stiff. The latter may be a far better player, but in the end, what you are is what determines what you do and vice versa.
So, before making startling statements like "Tired of seeing all these tree's with wasted points", realize that some folks actually might use other talents and get more out of their character than conventional wisdom or theorycraft may imply.
Top DPS for one person might be another persons 'suckiest' build because they can't play that 'Top DPS' build. Play the build that gives you the greatest satisfaction and keeps any groups you go with singing your praises. THAT's a good build, IMHO.
EDIT: spelling... can't seem to find the "Y" key
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 3:21pm by sloshot
I would just be careful of walking out into a crowd and stating "My way is the only way!" That might net you a few black eyes.
The simple truth is, to each his/her own. Just like there are the mini-maxers of every thousandth of a percentage point in theorycraft, there are the Huntards (and they seem to greatly outnumber the Theorycrafters!) Neither one of those camps can claim to be 'having more fun'. The melee huntard may very well be having a blast while the theorcrafter is bored stiff. The latter may be a far better player, but in the end, what you are is what determines what you do and vice versa.
So, before making startling statements like "Tired of seeing all these tree's with wasted points", realize that some folks actually might use other talents and get more out of their character than conventional wisdom or theorycraft may imply.
Top DPS for one person might be another persons 'suckiest' build because they can't play that 'Top DPS' build. Play the build that gives you the greatest satisfaction and keeps any groups you go with singing your praises. THAT's a good build, IMHO.
EDIT: spelling... can't seem to find the "Y" key
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 3:21pm by sloshot
Oops yea I forgot to add the humility disclaimer.
--I am by no means an authority on Hunter DPS. This is just what I have found works best for me in my guilds typical raid composition with my latency.--
--I am by no means an authority on Hunter DPS. This is just what I have found works best for me in my guilds typical raid composition with my latency.--
Quote:
The melee huntard may very well be having a blast while the theorcrafter is bored stiff.
I have several reactions to this, MELEE HUNTARD IS THE FUNNIEST AND FUNNEST THING WAY TO PVP (and also melee hunter is good luck to your BG 2/3 bg's win when I melee).
SV CC spec is quite fun for instances when you do crazy CC's like the double where you trap a mob, wyvren a mob (scatter when it breaks), and test your group to see if they can do it all before cc's break.
In my opinion FI isn't that great, a mage can do a 6k fireball crit which transfers to +180 damage, for a 1k crit it adds 30 damage, this only goes for his party ,thats not alot.
A well geared SV hunter can add 150-200 AP to every physical damage do'er, so you got your melee party (made of tanks, rouges, feral druids, etc etc) and also the 2nd hunter and feral druid (#1 rule for SV, Make sure you are grouped with feral druid cus 5% crit helps whole raid) in the 2nd group (In 25 mans this grows even better).
I may be wrong, as I have not done the conversions of whats better 3%(x5) 150-200 AP(xPhysical Damagers).
But nevertheless it is best to have 1 dedicated SV and multiple BM's in your raid for the nice damage buffs.
Quote:
I would just be careful of walking out into a crowd and stating "My way is the only way!" That might net you a few black eyes.
The simple truth is, to each his/her own. Just like there are the mini-maxers of every thousandth of a percentage point in theorycraft, there are the Huntards (and they seem to greatly outnumber the Theorycrafters!) Neither one of those camps can claim to be 'having more fun'. The melee huntard may very well be having a blast while the theorcrafter is bored stiff. The latter may be a far better player, but in the end, what you are is what determines what you do and vice versa.
So, before making startling statements like "Tired of seeing all these tree's with wasted points", realize that some folks actually might use other talents and get more out of their character than conventional wisdom or theorycraft may imply.
This is the only class I've ever seen this be true for, at least in an organized fashion. There's a lot of players who don't care how good their spec are; as a general rule, they don't post much on forums... with the exception of Hunters. Typically people coming to a place like this are looking for some min-maxing, or at least some tips to improve their play. This doesn't seem to be the case with most hunters.
Take that however you want; I can see it as both a good and a bad thing.
Quote:
In my opinion FI isn't that great, a mage can do a 6k fireball crit which transfers to +180 damage, for a 1k crit it adds 30 damage, this only goes for his party ,thats not alot.
A well geared SV hunter can add 150-200 AP to every physical damage do'er, so you got your melee party (made of tanks, rouges, feral druids, etc etc) and also the 2nd hunter and feral druid (#1 rule for SV, Make sure you are grouped with feral druid cus 5% crit helps whole raid) in the 2nd group (In 25 mans this grows even better).
I may be wrong, as I have not done the conversions of whats better 3%(x5) 150-200 AP(xPhysical Damagers).
But nevertheless it is best to have 1 dedicated SV and multiple BM's in your raid for the nice damage buffs.
1 Survival Hunter > 1 BM Hunter unless your raid is extremely heavily stacked for casters.
BM really isn't that great past SSC/TK, though. Way too many bosses in Hyjal and BT that are hell for pets, and they tend to be the ones that are fairly difficult to beat.
ithikul wrote:
If SV brings about 150 Agi (ours does) to whole raid I can see that being very beneficial indeed. Does it stack like Ferocious Inspiration?
I'm a bit worried about your raids SV hunter here.
If you have 2 pieces of T5 you are at least somewhat within SSC and TK.
At that point a survival hunter should be able to hit 1000agi with standard raid buffs (blessing of kings, mark of the wild, 20agi buff food, 35agi elixir) pretty easy.
At SSC/TK raid level a SV hunter would add ~250ap to everyone attacking the same mob as the hunter (yes, raid wide, but it has to be the same mob, as expose weakness is a debuff which is applied to the mob which is being critically hit).
Mulgrin wrote:
ithikul wrote:
If SV brings about 150 Agi (ours does) to whole raid I can see that being very beneficial indeed. Does it stack like Ferocious Inspiration?
I'm a bit worried about your raids SV hunter here.
If you have 2 pieces of T5 you are at least somewhat within SSC and TK.
At that point a survival hunter should be able to hit 1000agi with standard raid buffs (blessing of kings, mark of the wild, 20agi buff food, 35agi elixir) pretty easy.
At SSC/TK raid level a SV hunter would add ~250ap to everyone attacking the same mob as the hunter (yes, raid wide, but it has to be the same mob, as expose weakness is a debuff which is applied to the mob which is being critically hit).
Can you construct a set of gear to do that? Our Survival Hunter who recently stopped playing capped out at around 850 with access to BT and Hyjal gear (albeit with horrible luck on drops). Being able to hit 1000 with just access to partial TK/SSC gear would be amazing, so I'm curious what he missed.
Many survival hunters resort to wearing rogue leather with 3 sockets and sticking them full of agility gems to hit those sky-high numbers. Grace of Air + Warp Burger + Major Agi pot is 152 agility though, which of course goes a very long way to hitting that big 1000.
Its possible to hit 1k agility, but it does mean you have to sacrifice a lot of other things.
And i believe that if i change out some gear and spec Sv i'm at ~750 agility unbuffed (and thats with mostly pre-kara gear and some pieces from kara)
And i believe that if i change out some gear and spec Sv i'm at ~750 agility unbuffed (and thats with mostly pre-kara gear and some pieces from kara)
Scholar
28 posts
I'm not seeing this mentioned yet, but once you start raiding, what's the life expectancy of a pet in most boss battles? Hell, even before raiding - sic your pet on heroic Quagmirran and watch him die quickly. I wonder if the OP took this into account, given the greater reliance BM-spec hunters place on pet damage.
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