I ran a couple of Outland quests last night with my prot warrior. For one of the quests I teamed up with an equal level fury warrior. Since the quest didn't require a tank we both were running DW. It was rare that he would put a sunder on any of the mobs....while I was pretty much spamming Devastate as much as possible.
I noticed that the few times he did sunder a mob my Devastate didn't stack any additional sunders. I was under the impression that sunders could stack regardless of who put it on. Is this incorrect?
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this remember me 1 think, i dont know if it working atm but when you are arms you get 4% dmg burst when mob is rended but if some1 other rend the mob you wont get anythink, you have to rend it yourself.
(maybe im talking nonsense, so dont blame me pls i play whit prot build so long that im not sure now if its like i wrote)
so it seems to me that those abilities work only when you use them, it wont work whit other players debuffs. or am i wrong? hmm?
// btw devastate dont make aditional sunders it just renew its duration
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 3:43pm by Frenkynator
(maybe im talking nonsense, so dont blame me pls i play whit prot build so long that im not sure now if its like i wrote)
so it seems to me that those abilities work only when you use them, it wont work whit other players debuffs. or am i wrong? hmm?
// btw devastate dont make aditional sunders it just renew its duration
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 3:43pm by Frenkynator
Frenkynator wrote:
// btw devastate dont make aditional sunders it just renew its duration
Couldn't understand half your post, but this I did understand, and you shoud really learn what you are talking about before spewing miss-information.
The only thing I spam is devestate. It does add sunders it even makes the first sunder.
Edit: To the OP, I don't know what the problem is, sounds like a wierd glitch to me, similar to times when I have seen 2 hunters marks on 1 target(under their unit frame where it shows debuffs, couldn't tell if it had 2 arrows floating over it's head)
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 9:50am by SynnTastic
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 9:52am by SynnTastic
Thanks Synn
I thought I was going crazy thinking that it was supposed to stack. I'll keep my eye on it if/when I team with another warrior and submit a help ticket to Blizz if it happens again. Although they usually tell me it's due to my ui add-ons.
Maybe it was just the debuff list that was glitching...it has been acting strange recently.
I thought I was going crazy thinking that it was supposed to stack. I'll keep my eye on it if/when I team with another warrior and submit a help ticket to Blizz if it happens again. Although they usually tell me it's due to my ui add-ons.
Maybe it was just the debuff list that was glitching...it has been acting strange recently.
Paladense wrote:
Although they usually tell me it's due to my ui add-ons.
Maybe it was just the debuff list that was glitching...it has been acting strange recently.
Maybe it was just the debuff list that was glitching...it has been acting strange recently.
It's their response to everything, it's always the add-ons fault. The debuffs are glitching? Turn off your add-ons. Your account was hacked? Turn off your add-ons. Your game card number didn't register properly? Turn off your add-ons. Honor Hold got bombarded with green meteors? Turn off your add-ons.
Seriously though, I've never grouped with another warrior, so I wouldn't know, but it definately sounds like a glitch in the system to me.
Sure you weren't just missing / being dodged every time you looked? Happens to me sometimes, I use like 6 devastates then look at the mob's sunder count and it's only 3 or 4 and I'm like wtf. Then I realize that some of the hits probably just missed.
Sunders don't stack any more than 5 per mob. If you haven't maxed out your sunders/devastate then the other warrior can add to them to get the stack to 5. On the other hand, if you are different levels and haven't learned that rank of sunder, the more powerful one takes the cake and the person with the lower lvl sunder can't do squat.
Two warriors can't both apply 5 sunders to the same target. This is unlike (say) Poisons, where two rogues can both poison the same target.
I'm guessing that the effect is similar to a Rogue's Expose Armour, which surpasses Sunder Armour.
I'm guessing that the first player to land a Sunder gets "Sundering Rights" for the duration of the fight, or that one players rank of Sunder is higher than the other.
Could this explain why only Prot Warriors seem to use Sunder?; the Arms & Fury guys having been told to back off with the heavy threat ability. Then again, it's also possible that since Sunder Armour doesn't do damage, and can't be used in Berserker Stance (I think), DPS warriors don't even bother hot-barring it, in much the same way that Slam doesn't get used by Tanks.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 10:15am by badrat
I'm guessing that the effect is similar to a Rogue's Expose Armour, which surpasses Sunder Armour.
I'm guessing that the first player to land a Sunder gets "Sundering Rights" for the duration of the fight, or that one players rank of Sunder is higher than the other.
Could this explain why only Prot Warriors seem to use Sunder?; the Arms & Fury guys having been told to back off with the heavy threat ability. Then again, it's also possible that since Sunder Armour doesn't do damage, and can't be used in Berserker Stance (I think), DPS warriors don't even bother hot-barring it, in much the same way that Slam doesn't get used by Tanks.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 10:15am by badrat
Badrat, Sunder Armor is not a major form of threat and it can also be used in berserker stance. I sometimes help out with the sunders because the tank doesnt have enough rage to apply them, and being fury, my rage bar is almost always full, so I just apply a few then go about my business.
I think what happened is that one of the two warriors had a higher ranking sunder than the other. If not...then they missed or they're dillusional. =)
I think what happened is that one of the two warriors had a higher ranking sunder than the other. If not...then they missed or they're dillusional. =)
Ahh these posts above give good points that I made assumptions about.
I was assuming same level since you were doing quests together. But that would be a factor if one had a higher level sunder/devestate. That could be a factor.
I was also assuming that you hadn't reached the 5 sunders limit yet. That too is a good point, you can only have 5 sunders on one mob, regardless of who put them on the mob.
I was assuming same level since you were doing quests together. But that would be a factor if one had a higher level sunder/devestate. That could be a factor.
I was also assuming that you hadn't reached the 5 sunders limit yet. That too is a good point, you can only have 5 sunders on one mob, regardless of who put them on the mob.
Well I am often "dillusional"...but not in this case. I was grouped with the other warrior for about an hour and was watching this issue for some time. Sure I missed and was dodged a lot...but Devastate clearly landed on numerous occassions without the associated sunder effect. I'm strictly talking about Devastate here since I rarely use the regular Sunder anymore.
We went several fights where the other warrior put on 1 sunder at the start of the fight and I was unable to stack any on top of that sunder. The fight started with 1 sunder and ended with 1 sunder. So there was no issue with exceeding the maximum number of sunder applications.
Now each of us was the same level...and I know my devastate and sunder are trained up. But I can't speak for his training. So, based on the thought that sunder stacking isn't exclusive to the player that put on the first sunder....It seems likely that it was one of 2 things.
1) a glitch
2) different levels of sunder not interacting
But either way ya'll have answered my question. It should have stacked. But some variable was mucking it up. Since my DW dps is centered around devastate I started making sure that I put on the first sunder. It's just something to be aware of when grouping with warriors I guess.
We went several fights where the other warrior put on 1 sunder at the start of the fight and I was unable to stack any on top of that sunder. The fight started with 1 sunder and ended with 1 sunder. So there was no issue with exceeding the maximum number of sunder applications.
Now each of us was the same level...and I know my devastate and sunder are trained up. But I can't speak for his training. So, based on the thought that sunder stacking isn't exclusive to the player that put on the first sunder....It seems likely that it was one of 2 things.
1) a glitch
2) different levels of sunder not interacting
But either way ya'll have answered my question. It should have stacked. But some variable was mucking it up. Since my DW dps is centered around devastate I started making sure that I put on the first sunder. It's just something to be aware of when grouping with warriors I guess.
Sometimes you will get an error stating that a more powerful ability is being used. Do you remember seeing that at all??
I would say that it should stack but it's possible that with the changes in 2.3, they goofed something up. Back when I was in my mid-60s, I remember going with some guildies to take down a Fel Reaver. We had a 70 Warrior tanking and dropping sunders but I was able to stack a couple of sunders on it as well.
You might try some experiments with another Warrior to see if sunders applied normally will stack and see if it's just the Devastate sunders that are not playing nice with the other Warrior's sunders.
You might try some experiments with another Warrior to see if sunders applied normally will stack and see if it's just the Devastate sunders that are not playing nice with the other Warrior's sunders.
Nope...I was keeping my eyes open for any cues as to why it was happening too. I know I am fully trained on devastate and sunder..and I'm pretty sure that the devastate from my sunder would have over ridden his sunder if he wasn't trained up enough. I wasn't getting any "more powerful ability" messages.
I'm stumped. I may have to test this out with another equal level warrior to see if I can replicate the problem. Does anyone have any experience with regular sunder combining with Devastate's sunder? Maybe the two don't stack? Although this wouldn't make any sense to me.
Edit: Morghast beat me to the theory
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 12:23pm by Paladense
I'm stumped. I may have to test this out with another equal level warrior to see if I can replicate the problem. Does anyone have any experience with regular sunder combining with Devastate's sunder? Maybe the two don't stack? Although this wouldn't make any sense to me.
Edit: Morghast beat me to the theory
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 12:23pm by Paladense
When you use a move that does damage and an added effect I don't think you get an error saying theres a more powerful debuff present. I may be wrong but I have never seen it. Like TC. My friend was helping me in SM cath when I lost my whole group.
I spammed the hell out of TC as it was my way to hold aggro over my wifes pali healer. (just in case one of the extra mobs came after her.)
I never saw that message while using it and I was level 39 and he was 62.
The person may have had improved Sunder and that could be the reason it didn't stack?
*edited* didn't realize i didnt have a question at then end of the last sentence.
/facepalm
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 11:16am by HitashLevat
I spammed the hell out of TC as it was my way to hold aggro over my wifes pali healer. (just in case one of the extra mobs came after her.)
I never saw that message while using it and I was level 39 and he was 62.
The person may have had improved Sunder and that could be the reason it didn't stack?
*edited* didn't realize i didnt have a question at then end of the last sentence.
/facepalm
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 11:16am by HitashLevat
Doesn't improved sunder just decrease the rage cost though? Don't think it makes it more "powerful".
Paladense wrote:
Doesn't improved sunder just decrease the rage cost though? Don't think it makes it more "powerful".
Not sure thats why Im asking =P
I never speced that way as I rarely needed to stack sunder like mad while tanking in my old prot build. TC got the job done and I was able to bash all the mobs like mad.
*edited* Good catch. didn't realize I had no question mark at the end of that. It was intended as a question. xD
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 11:19am by HitashLevat
When you Devastate and there are less than five Sunders on the mob, it will attempt to apply Sunder Armor as well (once at 5x stacks it will just refresh the debuff). However, the Sunder component of the Devastate can be missed, dodged or parried and is treated as a separate attack - so even if the Devastate hits, the Sunder may not.
As to why you couldn't stack on top of his, were you using different ranks of SA? That would prevent it if yours was a lower level. Especially if you're levelling though, I can see places where the game would misread this... like using a level 60 Devastate but the Fury Warrior using his level 67 Sunder Armor. Even though it's the same debuff, it might misread the higher level SA as a superior effect and prevent the Devastates from working properly.
As to why you couldn't stack on top of his, were you using different ranks of SA? That would prevent it if yours was a lower level. Especially if you're levelling though, I can see places where the game would misread this... like using a level 60 Devastate but the Fury Warrior using his level 67 Sunder Armor. Even though it's the same debuff, it might misread the higher level SA as a superior effect and prevent the Devastates from working properly.
Good info there RpZip...I wasn't aware that the sunder portion of Devastate counted as a separate attack and could be dodged, parried, etc independently from the damage portion.
The different levels of sunder could possibly explain my issue. I'm 99% sure that I am fully trained in both sunder and devastate though (I'll have to double check that when I play next). IF I am fully trained and we are both the same level I don't see how his sunder could be better than my devastate. I'm gonna check my character though...just in case I missed a training upgrade.
A separate but related question. If I keep training Devastate do I need to continue to train Sunder? Does the Devastate debuff rely on my sunder training level or does that sunder upgrade through the Devastate training? Hope that made sense.
The different levels of sunder could possibly explain my issue. I'm 99% sure that I am fully trained in both sunder and devastate though (I'll have to double check that when I play next). IF I am fully trained and we are both the same level I don't see how his sunder could be better than my devastate. I'm gonna check my character though...just in case I missed a training upgrade.
A separate but related question. If I keep training Devastate do I need to continue to train Sunder? Does the Devastate debuff rely on my sunder training level or does that sunder upgrade through the Devastate training? Hope that made sense.
Quote:
I never speced that way as I rarely needed to stack sunder like mad while tanking in my old prot build. TC got the job done and I was able to bash all the mobs like mad.
I was actually using my Devastate while DW'ing. I've found that spamming Devastate with the two weapons does some decent dps when my tanking is not required (i.e. normal quests). Not the prettiest way of doing things. But it seems rather effective.
When tanking I use devastate and TC a lot...and you are right, TC works wonders.
Paladense wrote:
Good info there RpZip...I wasn't aware that the sunder portion of Devastate counted as a separate attack and could be dodged, parried, etc independently from the damage portion.
The different levels of sunder could possibly explain my issue. I'm 99% sure that I am fully trained in both sunder and devastate though (I'll have to double check that when I play next). IF I am fully trained and we are both the same level I don't see how his sunder could be better than my devastate. I'm gonna check my character though...just in case I missed a training upgrade.
The different levels of sunder could possibly explain my issue. I'm 99% sure that I am fully trained in both sunder and devastate though (I'll have to double check that when I play next). IF I am fully trained and we are both the same level I don't see how his sunder could be better than my devastate. I'm gonna check my character though...just in case I missed a training upgrade.
It's quite possible that it's programmed incorrectly; which is to say, even at the highest rank for your level of Sunder and Devastate (I'm assuming you're not level 70, since you were talking about questing; if you are then there's other things at stake) since they are acquired at different levels the Sunder could be improperly reading as the more powerful debuff, preventing the Devastate sunders from applying properly.
As a general rule, things before level 70 are poorly tested when changed by Blizzard, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is the root cause.
Quote:
A separate but related question. If I keep training Devastate do I need to continue to train Sunder? Does the Devastate debuff rely on my sunder training level or does that sunder upgrade through the Devastate training? Hope that made sense.
I'd assume so, but I don't know so. I'd drop the small amount of gold regardless.
Thanks RPZip. That explains alot. possibly why the pali's devotion aura doesn't show properly in the buff marks either. I find it funny when a 530 buff is covered up by a 390.
That got me all wierded out for a bit before I could tell what was going on.
That got me all wierded out for a bit before I could tell what was going on.
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