Can someone please confirm for me that Thick Hide does not stack with Dire Bear Form's multiplier?
Both the talent and the form says "Increases your armor contribution from items by x%" which would lead me to believe that they do not, and are instead additive. Meaning, a feral tank is getting 510% their normal armor value when shifted, not 550% as these idiots on Wowhead are led to believe (look up the Pillar of Ferocity).
Am I wrong?
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 9:04am by Norellicus
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Unfortently this time you are wrong.
Taken from the druid Wiki
or in other words 1000 * 5.5
was also mentioned somewhere else on the board here but can't seem to find it...
Taken from the druid Wiki
Quote:
Thick Hide stacks multiplicatively with Dire Bear. This means that if you have 1000 Gear Armor, and get 5000 Gear Armor in Dire Bear Form, Thick Hide takes this to 5000 * 1.10 = 5500 Armor in Dire Bear (add agility and enchant/magic armor after).
or in other words 1000 * 5.5
was also mentioned somewhere else on the board here but can't seem to find it...
Norellicus wrote:
Can someone please confirm for me that Thick Hide does not stack with Dire Bear Form's multiplier?
Both the talent and the form says "Increases your armor contribution from items by x%" which would lead me to believe that they do not, and are instead additive. Meaning, a feral tank is getting 510% their normal armor value when shifted, not 550% as these idiots on Wowhead are led to believe (look up the Pillar of Ferocity).
Am I wrong?
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 9:04am by Norellicus
Both the talent and the form says "Increases your armor contribution from items by x%" which would lead me to believe that they do not, and are instead additive. Meaning, a feral tank is getting 510% their normal armor value when shifted, not 550% as these idiots on Wowhead are led to believe (look up the Pillar of Ferocity).
Am I wrong?
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 9:04am by Norellicus
Well I'm not 100% on this, but I'd say you're right. Dire Bear gives you 400% what your current armour from items are, and the talent gives +10% of your armour from items. Doesn't include enchants or buffs, so it swould make sense that they wouldn't include each other in their own calculations.
EDIT: Hah, had a feeling I was missing something. Thanks for the correction!
EDIT2: Maybe not, oh dilemmas.
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 3:16pm by Micros
If that's true, then all of our theoretical tanking models are wrong, because Rawr and Emmerald's models both say they're additive (it is in Rawr at least, it's harder to reverse engineer with Emmerald's setup...and I'm judging purely based on armor difference with a Braxxis equipped and not).
It doesn't make sense based on the tooltips either. That wiki is great but it's still a wiki :X
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 9:42am by Norellicus
It doesn't make sense based on the tooltips either. That wiki is great but it's still a wiki :X
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 9:42am by Norellicus
I *think* it does not. I read somewhere before, but I can't really confirm it, sorry. Guess you will have to do your own calculations or google for it.
8 posts
I seem to remember testing this and it being a 5.5% multiplier. At work now so I can't test it but just shift to bear form and check your armor. Take off a piece of armor that has no other armor buffs on it. (Current armor - Armor after) / armor of piece = your answer
I have never read anything anywhere that implied 510%. Everything I have ever seen and experienced in 2yrs playing a druid and reading every guide & forum post on any druid or WOW site I could find has always been 550%.
I'm pretty sure I have seen it in-game as well, both by equipping an item and by seeing a 10% increase in my armor in bear when selecting the talent.
So I am 99.99999999999% sure it is Armor x 5.5 with thick hide :)
I'm pretty sure I have seen it in-game as well, both by equipping an item and by seeing a 10% increase in my armor in bear when selecting the talent.
So I am 99.99999999999% sure it is Armor x 5.5 with thick hide :)
well, lets break the talent down.
+10% item contribution means if you have 2000 armor from items, you get an extra 200 on top of it. if the dire bear multiplier is applied after thick hide is applied, youre getting 400% extra from 2200 which is 11,000 total. if the thick hide multiplier is applied after it, then youre getting 10% more from 10,000 armor, which is....11,000 total.
im inclined to say theyre two halves of the same whole here. based on the wording of the tooltip, it increases the armor contribution from items by a base %. if you have 2000 armor, dire bear means you have 10,000 armor (2000+ 2000*4). if thick hide is applied to the 2000 armor, you have 2200 armor, which when multiplied by dire bear becomes 11,000 armor. if its applied after the dire bear multiplier then you start with 2000 armor, which becomes 10,000 with dire bear and is then increased by 10%, giving you 11,000.
from what im seeing, theres no reason to assume it works by multiplying the dire bear effect. granted, this could just be another case of blizzards wonky and confusing tooltips, but im inclined to say its just people multiplying stuff for no reason.
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 2:24pm by Quor
+10% item contribution means if you have 2000 armor from items, you get an extra 200 on top of it. if the dire bear multiplier is applied after thick hide is applied, youre getting 400% extra from 2200 which is 11,000 total. if the thick hide multiplier is applied after it, then youre getting 10% more from 10,000 armor, which is....11,000 total.
im inclined to say theyre two halves of the same whole here. based on the wording of the tooltip, it increases the armor contribution from items by a base %. if you have 2000 armor, dire bear means you have 10,000 armor (2000+ 2000*4). if thick hide is applied to the 2000 armor, you have 2200 armor, which when multiplied by dire bear becomes 11,000 armor. if its applied after the dire bear multiplier then you start with 2000 armor, which becomes 10,000 with dire bear and is then increased by 10%, giving you 11,000.
from what im seeing, theres no reason to assume it works by multiplying the dire bear effect. granted, this could just be another case of blizzards wonky and confusing tooltips, but im inclined to say its just people multiplying stuff for no reason.
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 2:24pm by Quor
Quor wrote:
well, lets break the talent down.
+10% item contribution means if you have 2000 armor from items, you get an extra 200 on top of it. if the dire bear multiplier is applied after thick hide is applied, youre getting 400% extra from 2200 which is 11,000 total. if the thick hide multiplier is applied after it, then youre getting 10% more from 10,000 armor, which is....11,000 total.
im inclined to say theyre two halves of the same whole here. based on the wording of the tooltip, it increases the armor contribution from items by a base %. if you have 2000 armor, dire bear means you have 10,000 armor (2000+ 2000*4). if thick hide is applied to the 2000 armor, you have 2200 armor, which when multiplied by dire bear becomes 11,000 armor. if its applied after the dire bear multiplier then you start with 2000 armor, which becomes 10,000 with dire bear and is then increased by 10%, giving you 11,000.
from what im seeing, theres no reason to assume it works by multiplying the dire bear effect. granted, this could just be another case of blizzards wonky and confusing tooltips, but im inclined to say its just people multiplying stuff for no reason.
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 2:24pm by Quor
+10% item contribution means if you have 2000 armor from items, you get an extra 200 on top of it. if the dire bear multiplier is applied after thick hide is applied, youre getting 400% extra from 2200 which is 11,000 total. if the thick hide multiplier is applied after it, then youre getting 10% more from 10,000 armor, which is....11,000 total.
im inclined to say theyre two halves of the same whole here. based on the wording of the tooltip, it increases the armor contribution from items by a base %. if you have 2000 armor, dire bear means you have 10,000 armor (2000+ 2000*4). if thick hide is applied to the 2000 armor, you have 2200 armor, which when multiplied by dire bear becomes 11,000 armor. if its applied after the dire bear multiplier then you start with 2000 armor, which becomes 10,000 with dire bear and is then increased by 10%, giving you 11,000.
from what im seeing, theres no reason to assume it works by multiplying the dire bear effect. granted, this could just be another case of blizzards wonky and confusing tooltips, but im inclined to say its just people multiplying stuff for no reason.
Edited, Dec 17th 2007 2:24pm by Quor
The part you miss is two separate calculations that are then being added together, not multiplied one after another.
x = base armor, 2000 in our case
You're calculating it as:
x+4x*.1 = 11000, whereas I was under the impression that it was:
.1x+4x+x (I could write this in simpler terms, just trying to keep everything broken out) = 10200.Which would make more sense given the tooltips both saying they're increasing armor contribution from items, and not just armor in general (the total armor on each of your pieces of gear does not go up when you shift; you would expect the base value to be calculated twice).
That said, independent testing ingame does indeed show that it is a total 5.5x multiplier when you have Thick Hide maxed out.
see, thats weird. i figured thick hide was based off of the toughness talent warriors and paladins have (same idea, same wording, 10% more armor contribution from items). i suppose somewhere in the math it gets all jumbled up.
that makes me wonder if its a bug or just more fuzzy mechanics/wording on blizzards part. something about this discussion reminds me of something that happened awhile ago regarding this but i cant quite remember what it was....
that makes me wonder if its a bug or just more fuzzy mechanics/wording on blizzards part. something about this discussion reminds me of something that happened awhile ago regarding this but i cant quite remember what it was....
It's multiplied. IE, it is 550% w/ 3/3 Thick Hide.
Test w/ 3/3 Thick Hide.
Bear armor w/o Thoriumweave Cloak (+12 Agi) - 27,186
Bear armor w/ Thoriumweave Cloak (+12 Agi) - 29,354
Thoriumweave Cloak has 390 armor, +24 tacked on for the 12 Agi. It increased my bear armor by 2168, or (5.5x390)+23.
Test w/ 3/3 Thick Hide.
Bear armor w/o Thoriumweave Cloak (+12 Agi) - 27,186
Bear armor w/ Thoriumweave Cloak (+12 Agi) - 29,354
Thoriumweave Cloak has 390 armor, +24 tacked on for the 12 Agi. It increased my bear armor by 2168, or (5.5x390)+23.
Look at it this way:
If it wasn't giving dire bear the 550% armor but the 510% instead it would have been a -3 tier talent instead of a 2 tier one, no?
Even Blizzard isnt as silly as that.
Hence: multiplicative, 550%. /smile
If it wasn't giving dire bear the 550% armor but the 510% instead it would have been a -3 tier talent instead of a 2 tier one, no?
Even Blizzard isnt as silly as that.
Hence: multiplicative, 550%. /smile
Immunios wrote:
Look at it this way:
If it wasn't giving dire bear the 550% armor but the 510% instead it would have been a -3 tier talent instead of a 2 tier one, no?
Even Blizzard isnt as silly as that.
Hence: multiplicative, 550%. /smile
If it wasn't giving dire bear the 550% armor but the 510% instead it would have been a -3 tier talent instead of a 2 tier one, no?
Even Blizzard isnt as silly as that.
Hence: multiplicative, 550%. /smile
You give them WAY too much credit.
See also: Endless Rage, Circle of Healing.
Edited, Dec 18th 2007 9:59am by Norellicus
I agree with you on those relatively new abilities.
Endless rage will be forced upon soon for Arms warriors my guess by taking away some rage generation for Arms (they did before for a brief period), as they try to make deep specs necessary it seems (see: shaman, rogue (AR-PREP is dead), druids).
Circle of healing is just a big *****-up. /agree
All the reasoning aside it is very easily tested whether it is 510% or 550%, so why even bother discussing it. /smile
Endless rage will be forced upon soon for Arms warriors my guess by taking away some rage generation for Arms (they did before for a brief period), as they try to make deep specs necessary it seems (see: shaman, rogue (AR-PREP is dead), druids).
Circle of healing is just a big *****-up. /agree
All the reasoning aside it is very easily tested whether it is 510% or 550%, so why even bother discussing it. /smile
CoH is one of the better talents in the game, actually.
It's kind of handy to be able to heal the entire melee group without having to waste a slot in it for a Priest, you know... given the way encounters are deisgned these days, being able to heal a group at will is immensely useful. Things like Gurtogg Bloodboil, Anetheron, Rage Winterchill, Azgalor, Archimonde, Illidari Council and Illidan are all built in such a way that typicially groups will take damage together, at least properly constructed groups. There's probably examples from earlier raids but I don't feel like thinking about them. =p
Being able to heal them at will, instantly and while moving, is... pretty damn good. It scales poorly with +healing but that's not really a huge issue, it's the control that makes it so useful.
It's also amazing in Arenas, but going that deep into Holy usually isn't worth it compared to what you get from Disc. *shrug*
You're calculating it as:
x+4x*.1 = 11000,
2000 + 4 * 2000 * .1 != 11000
(2000 + 4 * 2000) * 1.1 == 11000
Sorry, just had to correct the math there.
Edited, Dec 19th 2007 4:18am by RPZip
It's kind of handy to be able to heal the entire melee group without having to waste a slot in it for a Priest, you know... given the way encounters are deisgned these days, being able to heal a group at will is immensely useful. Things like Gurtogg Bloodboil, Anetheron, Rage Winterchill, Azgalor, Archimonde, Illidari Council and Illidan are all built in such a way that typicially groups will take damage together, at least properly constructed groups. There's probably examples from earlier raids but I don't feel like thinking about them. =p
Being able to heal them at will, instantly and while moving, is... pretty damn good. It scales poorly with +healing but that's not really a huge issue, it's the control that makes it so useful.
It's also amazing in Arenas, but going that deep into Holy usually isn't worth it compared to what you get from Disc. *shrug*
Quote:
You're calculating it as:
x+4x*.1 = 11000,
2000 + 4 * 2000 * .1 != 11000
(2000 + 4 * 2000) * 1.1 == 11000
Sorry, just had to correct the math there.
Edited, Dec 19th 2007 4:18am by RPZip
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