Blue Attention, more BSFollow

I like how the Blue said that they only buffed Hemo to make everyone spec deep sub. Then took it away, because rogue's were only speccing to get Hemo. Which is completely different from Warriors going into Arms to get MS.

I also enjoyed the extremely anti-rogue Druid towards the 9th page who believes we have no argument against MS because we can use wounding poison...

a warrior speccing MS is nothing like a rogue speccing hemo. warriors spec MS to be viable in pvp. rogues are viable in pvp with any spec. no warrior gets past 1700 in arena without using MS spec, but many rogues are 2k+ with deep combat, deep sub, and deep assasin.

as for MS vs wound, the druid has a point, even if he made it in an assholish way. MS is talented, wound is not. if rogues had to spec 31 points into a specific tree in order to get wound poison, then yes, they might be comparable, but MS is, and should be, that much more powerful than wound poison on account if MS being talented.

I would rather have a talented ability that did good damage and applied a 50% healing Debuff than a poison that did the same except took longer, did less damage, and was cleansable. It free's up my weapon for another poison. Heck... make it a deep sub talent. That would make people spec deeper, which right now, seems to be Blizzard's intent.

Are you insane? I mean really, truly, ******* insane? MS is the debuff. The debuff is MS. The damage is nice but if they made MS just a random proc on our weapon we could use other attacks, albeit less easily.

Besides which... Mortal Strike doesn't cause any more damage than Mutilate. Feel free to prove me wrong with math; I'll be waiting.



And the reason it's the only viable PvP spec is _because_ of MS, so this is a completely self-fulfilling prophecy. Especially before Blizzard started smoking crack and moved the talent trees around, if Bloodthirst had the MS debuff there would have been more than one viable PvP tree for Warriors.

The problem is not the Debuff, it's the damage.

To rephrase - it's fine for warrior to have an easy to aply, very hard to dispel 50% healing reduction debuff. This - on top of incredible mobility - is what they bring to the table. This is what they do. This is their gimmick.

There's honestly no need for it to crit for 3k however. That's overkill on top of the debuff.

Considering warrior fights with slow 2 handers, having a 'on proc' 10% damage reduction that stacked to 5 time would be an incredibly big nerf for you guys. I'm certainly not suggesting that.



Who said anything about damage?

Mutilate is a 41 point talent.
It requires the target to be poisoned.
It requires you to be behind the target.
It requires you to spend 60 energy.
It gives you 2-3 combo points.

Mortal Strike is a 31 point talent.
It requires you to spend 30 rage.
It applies the equivalent of 5 'uncleansable' wound poison.

They do about the same damage. Except it's much harder to get a double Mut crit then a MS crit.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure which one edges out over the other from a damage perspective. For all I care, Mutilate might as well do better and it does give one a lot of combo points.

But considering the heavy requirement (poison, position and talents) Mutilate should be a monster of an ability, not something that's being questioned for viability every day by tons of people.



Why do you want more then 1 viable tree? That's the real question. We do, and quite frankly, it sucks!

The rogue's spec are so spread apart that we still have people trying out Mutilate and even Combat during this current 'Hemo Craze'. After 3 years, rogues are still looking for 'the' spec.

Yeah, I'd be fun for Fury to work in pvp... but ultimately, you guys have 1 spec that totally dominates. You're monsters in pvp because of it, I'd love to have the same situation... and for a little bit, we did.

I'd rather have 1 spec that's a 10/10 then 3 way to get 7/10. Yeah, it's better to have 3 specs that are 10/10, but you can't really complain when you at least got one.

Edited, Dec 12th 2007 7:49pm by Tyrandor

It doesn't. With a 130 DPS 3.6 speed weapon you need about 3500 AP for it to crit that hard on a target with zero armor, even including Impale. Against targets with armor (i.e. everything) you'd need considerably more.



No, but I was saying if they made Mortal Strike aprox. a 50% chance to apply on swing (which would be about equivalent to what it is now, given how slow we swing) with the current debuff it wouldn't be much of an issue.





You did.



Mutilate does considerably more, but okay. It's also more consistent - double Mutilate crits are rarer than a single MS crit, but getting one Mutilate crit, one hit is much more likely and happens rather often.



And what do you really think the most important part of that is?

If you said the healing debuff, you are correct! Hence why I called you ******** out of your mind crazy.



Hmm... you're not quite getting it. Your argument was that the healing debuff on MS 'didn't matter' since everyone specced it. The reason everyone specced it is... becaue of the healing debuff. If they removed the healing debuff from MS and made it innate (maybe giving each of the 31-point talents that ability; the special abilities of Bloodthirst and Shield Slam are certainly useless enough that it'd be a nice change) or, as I mentioned, simply made it an on-swing proc Warriors would suddenly have many more viable PvP trees.

No... you don't get it :P.

They can let MS have it's debuff.

There's nothing wrong with Warrior having that debuff. Rogue have a healing debuff and now even Hunter do. Healing debuff help bringing healing back in line.

Make MS dea a lot less damage, and Warrior will still have their good pvp spec, will still be extremly viable in Arena... but will stop being the monsters they are right now.

I never said the debuff wasn't the most important part of MS - I said the debuff was not the problem. The problem is that on top of the debuff, it deals crazy damage.



You think if they change the MS talent from what it is right now to a 50% change on swing to apply a healing debuff, it wouldfn't change anything?

I don't know. Seems losing a huge hit every 6 second would be terrible for your overall dps - you'd be left with using Whirlwind and HS... A much bigger nerf then I'm asking for.



Edited, Dec 12th 2007 8:53pm by Tyrandor

Ugh. The argument is, not only does MS deal large, skillherald-shaped chunks (ok, that was a cheap shot) of damage, but SIMULTANEOUSLY applies a full 50% healing debuff that makes it that much harder to heal that damage. Rogues need time to build up that debuff. Warriors do it with one swing. The quickest way for a rogue to build up that debuff is to put it on the offhand and shiv it up, but that comes at the expense of an on-demand snare. Warriors get BOTH. See the faulty comparison here?

Reread the edit.

So? I understand that you're 31 point talent gives you the spammable attack you so need...

But the point is you still deal way to much damage for the mobility, damage mitigation and extremely powerful debuff you have.

I'm not saying 'take away MS' - I'm saying Warriors do too much damage, and the only way to nerf them without crippling their pve abilities, is to hit MS. How much of a nerf it needs to be isn't for me to decide, I'm not a mathematicians and any guess I'd hazard to take would probably be way to much.

When 2warrior/Healer and 2warrior/3healer are top comp in Arena, you know there's a problem. If the game was truly balanced, then they'd be spots for every class... right now we're seeing Warrior replace other DPS class entirely.

The option is to buff other dps class (and obviously, the current hemo situation shows what blizz think of this) or to nerf the king of the roost.



Edited, Dec 12th 2007 9:30pm by Tyrandor

thats less a function of the damage warriors do and more a function of warrior longevity. ive had mages hit me for 2k+ frostbolt hits while in pvp (so high stam and resilience too, not just straight damage) and do it from range with a cooldown-less skill. no MS is going to crit for 3k+ unless the warrior has some kind of extraneous buff, i.e. berserking (not found in arena) or an AV battle standard (not found in arena) all while having enrage or death wish up. and then said target needs to be, as zip said, naked, or nearly so, in order for that damage to be achieved.

essentially, in arena, 3k+ MS is not going to happen. there are classes out there that can hit much harder than a warrior can.

i cant say for certain why warrior-heavy teams are showing up more often now, but as i mentioned above, i think that tells more about the direction arena has taken. its a longevity fight now, with the team that can outlast the other doing better, and in terms of longevity, a supported warrior tops everything else.

how to fix this longevity issue? i dont know. healing is damn strong as it is now, and classes that used to epitomize the "glass cannon" mindset are now able to take inordinately more punishment than before, while hardy classes are downright impossible to kill under certain circumstances. its a sticky situation.

one way to go about doing things would be to take each class, select a talent tree, then break it down and rebuild it so that its entirely group based in some way. create skills and talents based on the idea of "great with a group, ****** solo" like the entire warrior class is. include a bunch of stuff focusing on longevity and survivability and what not, but make such things pointless without the proper support expected from a high-quality group. then voila; everyone has an arena viable tree.

Annnnnnd again, Mortal Strike does not do more damage than _other comparable talents_. The closest comparison is Mutilate, but it's not even more damage than Sinister Strike when you adjust for how often it can be used. and the only way to nerf them without crippling their pve abilities, is to hit MS. How much of a nerf it needs to be isn't for me to decide, I'm not a mathematicians and any guess I'd hazard to take would probably be way to much.

Warrior's autoattack is less than a Rogue's autoattack, unless we're living in bizzaro world again. It hits hard but it's slow as hell. Warrior's special attack damage isn't any greater than a Rogue's. So where is the damage?



There was one Warrior in the quarter-finals of the CGS 2v2, and he didn't advance. No Warriors reached the quarterfinals of the 3v3.



Admittedly true, although the comparison to SS still holds true. I'm also usually Rage starved in Arenas unless I'm getting focus fired, though, so both have their caveats.

ill wager a guess that hemo shouldnt be as good as MS unless hemo is a 31-pt talent. which it isnt.

so....why do we keep comparing the two?