Hey all, just a quick question for ya.
Been raiding with my guild for a while, done kara, grulls, dlk, vr, lurker, and thought i was doing good dps until i saw a dps report by a fellow guildie.
It turns out i was 3 above the ot/mt and was averging 450 dps where the top dps was 750-Ouch!
I'm trying to find out why I am sucking LOL.
Now sometimes i have to cast a few heals or rez, but that is only maybe 5% of the time.
My thoughts:
I know my gear is more pvp oriented, but no good drops yet :(
My spell hit is not capped yet- at around 112 (with scryers gem)-would it cause this much of a dps drop?
My spell damage is 867 non raid buffed- i thought this was pretty good
My crit is at 20% again thought this was good
I dont pull agro, i just wait for tank to get 5k threat and i can unload usually without having to stop so thats not a prob
My spell rotation is ff,is,sfx3, and sometimes ill throw a mf if its not a mana intensive fight
I was hoping you all could check out my armory and see if you can give me some pointers and see if its one thing or maybe a combo of them,
Thank You!,
Mac
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moonkin raid dpsFollow
From my understanding wrath is the status quo druid nuke for raiding. Course I can't speak from experiance I've never raided with a boomkin before. Just what I've heard.
Using Wrath would make sense. While it does not benefit as much from SpellDmg, it takes half the time to cast. (And benefits from more than half your SpellDmg) So in the long run you will increase your damage. Also, casting more spells means critting more often, thus triggering Nature's Grace more often which will also increase your DPS.
Also, Faerie Fire is pretty much wasted mana. Since you do not have the improved version, which could've made it better for raid, you're wasting a GCD on a spell that will not increase the melee DPS in your raid by so much. (imo)
And since you're using IS, I'd throw in a MF as well. (As long as you actually wait for the DoT to finish before casting it again) Not sure if this is a good idea, but it seems to be that DoT's are always a good thing while pumping out more damage.
Also, Faerie Fire is pretty much wasted mana. Since you do not have the improved version, which could've made it better for raid, you're wasting a GCD on a spell that will not increase the melee DPS in your raid by so much. (imo)
And since you're using IS, I'd throw in a MF as well. (As long as you actually wait for the DoT to finish before casting it again) Not sure if this is a good idea, but it seems to be that DoT's are always a good thing while pumping out more damage.
If mana isn't an issue, then spamming wrath while keeping insect swarm ticking is the way to go (maybe moonfire DOT ticking all the time as well).
Wrath is higher DPS than Starfire but is also much more mana intensive. Often the way to go is starfire spam until near the end of the fight then burn the last of your mana on wraths to pump it up and finish OOM as the boss goes down.
Wrath is higher DPS than Starfire but is also much more mana intensive. Often the way to go is starfire spam until near the end of the fight then burn the last of your mana on wraths to pump it up and finish OOM as the boss goes down.
Scholar
46 posts
Thanks for the info, I finaly got enough mp5 where i'm not oom anymore, so i guess i'll try wrath spam instead of sf, and try to throw a mf in as well and hope that will put my dps where it should be.
I also have been looking to get the spellstrike hood and the girdle of runification (sp?) to help boost my spell hit and dmg a little more, and saving for a trinket upgrade.
Thanks all!,
Mac
I also have been looking to get the spellstrike hood and the girdle of runification (sp?) to help boost my spell hit and dmg a little more, and saving for a trinket upgrade.
Thanks all!,
Mac
Read this:
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11582-druid_moonkin_dps_spreadsheet/
Download the spreadsheet there and actually read the posts. Some are outdated, yes, but are quite usefull also. The spreadsheet is updated, as far as i know.
Regarding FF, I *think* it triggers almost no threat, if any. So, you can cast it as soon as the MT hit the mob for the first time.
Maybe your problem isn't on equip or anything like this. Maybe is that you are taking too much time to cast a spell. For instance, I had a friend that was a Boomkin raider and he, almost always, wasn't very well on DPS, but he really had a good DPS gear. So, I asked if I could play his char for a while to test it out and I was DPSing better them him, but he plays it as well as me. Turns out it was his latency. He wasted too much time with latency and fps issues, wich didn't allowed him to optimize his casts.
Edited, Dec 13th 2007 5:17pm by Brisin
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t11582-druid_moonkin_dps_spreadsheet/
Download the spreadsheet there and actually read the posts. Some are outdated, yes, but are quite usefull also. The spreadsheet is updated, as far as i know.
Regarding FF, I *think* it triggers almost no threat, if any. So, you can cast it as soon as the MT hit the mob for the first time.
Maybe your problem isn't on equip or anything like this. Maybe is that you are taking too much time to cast a spell. For instance, I had a friend that was a Boomkin raider and he, almost always, wasn't very well on DPS, but he really had a good DPS gear. So, I asked if I could play his char for a while to test it out and I was DPSing better them him, but he plays it as well as me. Turns out it was his latency. He wasted too much time with latency and fps issues, wich didn't allowed him to optimize his casts.
Edited, Dec 13th 2007 5:17pm by Brisin
Scholar
46 posts
I had the spreadsheet, but can not edit without excel :(
My latency is usualy around 300-500 ms, and fps is usualy around 10-20 in raids depending on instance and how close we are as a grp.
I have had it dip to 7fps in tk during the first pulls when we are all in the first room, but its usualy around 20fps on bosses.
I would usualy open up with a ff/is during the pull, and when tank has 5k i start winding up my sf and reapply is/ff when its down.
I know i should get imp ff for raids, but i like my talents now, as i can still do good in pvp ans while soloing.
I dont go oom on fights anymore, and dont chug pots very often so i think i can switch to include mf, and switch to wrath to see if maybe thats the issue. LOL, maybe i shouldnt be eating during the boss fights... :)
My latency is usualy around 300-500 ms, and fps is usualy around 10-20 in raids depending on instance and how close we are as a grp.
I have had it dip to 7fps in tk during the first pulls when we are all in the first room, but its usualy around 20fps on bosses.
I would usualy open up with a ff/is during the pull, and when tank has 5k i start winding up my sf and reapply is/ff when its down.
I know i should get imp ff for raids, but i like my talents now, as i can still do good in pvp ans while soloing.
I dont go oom on fights anymore, and dont chug pots very often so i think i can switch to include mf, and switch to wrath to see if maybe thats the issue. LOL, maybe i shouldnt be eating during the boss fights... :)
Quote:
Regarding FF, I *think* it triggers almost no threat, if any. So, you can cast it as soon as the MT hit the mob for the first time.
As long as the tank hits the mob - be wary of the pain of FF'ing after a dodge, parry or miss :)
I often FF just after the tank has shot the mob to pull it do the armor reduction is up right from the start. There are the odd times when I come unstuck with this method and have to shift to bear quick :) I really should stop doing it, but it helps fill the time before I can start DPS'ing :)
I dont know for sure Mac but it really seems to me like you know your stuff. Like the other guy I feel it is your latency/fps. 300-500? Thats yellow ping right there is it not? Maybe you should also turn some graphics down because I just cant imagine playing with 20 fps let alone 7.
Edit: when did I become a Scholar? rockin!
Edited, Dec 13th 2007 5:37pm by Killerheals
Edited, Dec 13th 2007 5:39pm by Killerheals
Edit: when did I become a Scholar? rockin!
Edited, Dec 13th 2007 5:37pm by Killerheals
Edited, Dec 13th 2007 5:39pm by Killerheals
Scholar
46 posts
my lat bar is usally green, but heck idk lol i didnt think 300ms was bad
i always thought 20 fps was pretty good lol, guess i gotta tun those settings down even more, only time it gets choppy is when it drops to 10ish otherwise its smooth so i dont really pay attention to it.
Ok, well i'll turn my settings down, and switch up my spell rotaion and see if i can stop pulling the raid dps down :)
Thanks again for all the help guys!,
Mac
i always thought 20 fps was pretty good lol, guess i gotta tun those settings down even more, only time it gets choppy is when it drops to 10ish otherwise its smooth so i dont really pay attention to it.
Ok, well i'll turn my settings down, and switch up my spell rotaion and see if i can stop pulling the raid dps down :)
Thanks again for all the help guys!,
Mac
seems that i got my new computer screen i'm lower fps than my old one. i went from flat crt to a lcd. just seems like my fps is lower and when i log in the npc's and pc's take longer to load i dont know might be mroe addons since 2.3 got new screen around same time. anyone know any info on this at all? i have graphics turned down.
50~60 fps is the way to go, 20fps is too little, IMO. I am, usually, around those numbers. Latency is a ***** for me, cause my brother pc in on a home network with mine and sometimes, when I'm playing, he decides to download something and there it goes my latency...
I think I did the math a while back, and starfire was better than wrath UNLESS the mob was resistant/immune to arcane or you anticipate interrupts from damage via PvP. I can do it again though if y'all like (to test if it is the same), just give me some numbers to use as benchmarks first (spell damage and crit) for comparison.
I'm not sure about druid gear (mainly because my highest druid is 25 atm) but assuming caster gear is similar to hunter gear (unlike tank or healer gear) you probably get a lot of extra health and resilience which you DONT need for DPSing, and lose SD/crit/mana in comparison with gear of a similar item level. Also, hit rating is the biggest DPS boost in terms of itemization you can get.
Note that I could be wrong on the PvP gear, I'm just making an assumption there.
I'm not sure about druid gear (mainly because my highest druid is 25 atm) but assuming caster gear is similar to hunter gear (unlike tank or healer gear) you probably get a lot of extra health and resilience which you DONT need for DPSing, and lose SD/crit/mana in comparison with gear of a similar item level. Also, hit rating is the biggest DPS boost in terms of itemization you can get.
Note that I could be wrong on the PvP gear, I'm just making an assumption there.
wait wait wait... you mean you can't get by with moonfire spamming?
Eh, whenever I play a druid in an instance I have to MF spam at least one fight. But the groups think it's hillarious when I do because I announce it half-way through after I've done good thus far.
FF->IS->MF->(if it crits)SF->SF->SF repeat.
(if it doesnt crit)Wrath->SF->SF repeat.
If your not having a mana issue, i suggest this spell rotation. Of course you dont have to put up FF every rotation as its duration is longer. Also, never recast MF if its still ticking. (remember the majority of MF dmg is in the DOT)
Also, if you dont have an addon like Quartz, you should get one. I increased my dps on all characers ~ 10% just by having it, to see where my latency cast times were with the server. Tho it is sometimes slightly off, I still get more casts off in a fight wich = more dps.
(if it doesnt crit)Wrath->SF->SF repeat.
If your not having a mana issue, i suggest this spell rotation. Of course you dont have to put up FF every rotation as its duration is longer. Also, never recast MF if its still ticking. (remember the majority of MF dmg is in the DOT)
Also, if you dont have an addon like Quartz, you should get one. I increased my dps on all characers ~ 10% just by having it, to see where my latency cast times were with the server. Tho it is sometimes slightly off, I still get more casts off in a fight wich = more dps.
Selverein,
FF is only a global cooldown which you can cast after a few hits from the tank even before moving over to full dps. But even if it wasn't, for one measly global cooldown you will add quite a lot to the melee dps (including threat for the tank!). Lowering targets armor increases melee dps by quite some %s for a good time. In those 1.5 secs you can never do that much damage yourself.
FF is a must.
To the OP: agreed on using Wrath instead of Starfire. And don't forget that those top-dpsers use YOUR buffs (MotW but mostly for casters in your group the +crit from Doomkin) to gain in dps.
FF is only a global cooldown which you can cast after a few hits from the tank even before moving over to full dps. But even if it wasn't, for one measly global cooldown you will add quite a lot to the melee dps (including threat for the tank!). Lowering targets armor increases melee dps by quite some %s for a good time. In those 1.5 secs you can never do that much damage yourself.
FF is a must.
To the OP: agreed on using Wrath instead of Starfire. And don't forget that those top-dpsers use YOUR buffs (MotW but mostly for casters in your group the +crit from Doomkin) to gain in dps.
Meh, 610 armor doesn't seem that much to me. Not casting it would allow for a bit more than half a Wrath. Now if only the "Imp FF" talent would give something decent like +Damage or +Crit it'd be so much nicer.
I guess if there is a lot of physical damage in your raid it's worth it, but I remain skeptical as is my nature. (I don't need to be convinced anyway, I'm not gonna stalk you if you keep using it)
But the OP wanted more damage output so... Casting FF takes away 1.5 seconds of not doing anything, which could've been another Wrath, and the cost is that of roughly 60% of a Wrath. At least you only have to cast it every 40 seconds so I guess it doesn't really matter.
I guess if there is a lot of physical damage in your raid it's worth it, but I remain skeptical as is my nature. (I don't need to be convinced anyway, I'm not gonna stalk you if you keep using it)
But the OP wanted more damage output so... Casting FF takes away 1.5 seconds of not doing anything, which could've been another Wrath, and the cost is that of roughly 60% of a Wrath. At least you only have to cast it every 40 seconds so I guess it doesn't really matter.
IS>MF>Wrath til crit>SF
That's the norm. If Moonfire crits, you use Starfire. You renew DoT's unless they can't pan out, except if Insect Swarm can get through 70% of its duration or 50% for Moonfire.
This is obviously mana-intensive. Decide whether or not you can afford to play like this.
That's the norm. If Moonfire crits, you use Starfire. You renew DoT's unless they can't pan out, except if Insect Swarm can get through 70% of its duration or 50% for Moonfire.
This is obviously mana-intensive. Decide whether or not you can afford to play like this.
12 posts
I have played both ways, spamming wrath til it crits and then casting a SF, as well as spamming SF with minimal wraths casted. Once I started the SF spamming my dps went up quite a bit. I use MF every 15-20 seconds and renew my IS whenever it needs to be. The only time I ever use wrath over starfire is when the mob is immune to arcane or mitigates arcane damage (ie the arcane patrollers in Kara). Plus if you're rolling with a warlock (and if it's a 25 man raid there's gotta be at least a couple of them) their Curse of Shadows will boost your arcane damage.
Play around with both methods until you find what increases your dps. If reports aren't run for every raid download Recount to gauge how each method is working for you.
FF does make a small minute difference if you want to continue using it. It's up to you. I wouldn't ever waste the talent points to get imp FF, though.
Play around with both methods until you find what increases your dps. If reports aren't run for every raid download Recount to gauge how each method is working for you.
FF does make a small minute difference if you want to continue using it. It's up to you. I wouldn't ever waste the talent points to get imp FF, though.
If you want to check out how much damage you can do in a certain time and how long your mana will last, go and see Dr Boom!
He is up near Area 52 in Netherstorm. If you stand on the barrels near him, his little bomb minions cannont damage you and you can cast away at him for ages with your damage meter running. (He has massive health, because in the quest to kill him you have to use special bombs that do massive damage to him.
Hunters use him often to work out their shot rotations and work out which maximises their DPS.
He is up near Area 52 in Netherstorm. If you stand on the barrels near him, his little bomb minions cannont damage you and you can cast away at him for ages with your damage meter running. (He has massive health, because in the quest to kill him you have to use special bombs that do massive damage to him.
Hunters use him often to work out their shot rotations and work out which maximises their DPS.
Scholar
46 posts
Thanks for all the adivce, you all rock! I tried sitching to wrath spam and noticed a differnce in dps without the meters, also noticed i was pulling aggro now lol, whoops gotta work on that :)
I found that: is, mf, w spam was a bit too mana intesive but: is, wrath spam was fine so i'm working on tweaking that a little and will see a report on a raid tonite.
I Worked with my video settings and got my framerate up in the 30-50s and i looked at my lat wrong earlier, it usually sits at 130-250, not 350 so its almost always under 200 unless wife is watching movies on laptop.
Anyways, ill find out how it works and let you all know, thanks again!,
mac
I found that: is, mf, w spam was a bit too mana intesive but: is, wrath spam was fine so i'm working on tweaking that a little and will see a report on a raid tonite.
I Worked with my video settings and got my framerate up in the 30-50s and i looked at my lat wrong earlier, it usually sits at 130-250, not 350 so its almost always under 200 unless wife is watching movies on laptop.
Anyways, ill find out how it works and let you all know, thanks again!,
mac
Scholar
46 posts
LOL, ok guys here is the latest report of my damage output.
I tried to use wrath/mf more but as you know, hydros is a pain cause you have to switch it up a bit.
I did use my battle rezzes and that killed my mana near the end, but was just wondering if this is where i should be or if you all see anything that could be changed,
During the fight my latency was about 200ms and my fps was aroun 10ish...ugh i did set my settings down to the minimum, and it did help, but in raids it still bottoms out :(
http://wowwebstats.com/aivtnwj6sx3tc
Thanks again guys, you all rock!,
mac
I tried to use wrath/mf more but as you know, hydros is a pain cause you have to switch it up a bit.
I did use my battle rezzes and that killed my mana near the end, but was just wondering if this is where i should be or if you all see anything that could be changed,
During the fight my latency was about 200ms and my fps was aroun 10ish...ugh i did set my settings down to the minimum, and it did help, but in raids it still bottoms out :(
http://wowwebstats.com/aivtnwj6sx3tc
Thanks again guys, you all rock!,
mac
ok i dont raid main is only 61 prot pally and druid is only like lvl 30 or so. but why wouldnt you get imp ff and use it? that looks like it would be a nice dps boost to the raid unless you have all mages in raid.
rogues melee
hunters/pets melee/ranged
locks pets melee
every shammy i've seen so far been meleeing only one healers so far
warr melee
pally melee unless holy
if another druid and feral melee
priest not melee
seems more than half the raid would be meleeing so seems like that would be a huge boost to dps true it wont show up for yours but it's not all about your numbers if you up the total raids dps more than what you would do by not casting it and haveing 1/2 a wrath cast? seems like a bad trade off for not casting it to me.
anyone have any real experiance with it in raids so far don't look like anyone giveing solid advice on what to do just peeps tossing out theorys, or samples to try.
also to op maybe find a way to get more points into the tallent that reduses threat more if your now pulling threat. just idea.
sorry for spelling i suck at it and i dont belive in gramer : P
rogues melee
hunters/pets melee/ranged
locks pets melee
every shammy i've seen so far been meleeing only one healers so far
warr melee
pally melee unless holy
if another druid and feral melee
priest not melee
seems more than half the raid would be meleeing so seems like that would be a huge boost to dps true it wont show up for yours but it's not all about your numbers if you up the total raids dps more than what you would do by not casting it and haveing 1/2 a wrath cast? seems like a bad trade off for not casting it to me.
anyone have any real experiance with it in raids so far don't look like anyone giveing solid advice on what to do just peeps tossing out theorys, or samples to try.
also to op maybe find a way to get more points into the tallent that reduses threat more if your now pulling threat. just idea.
sorry for spelling i suck at it and i dont belive in gramer : P
Quote:
My spell hit is not capped yet- at around 112 (with scryers gem)-would it cause this much of a dps drop?
Yeah, it will. Capping spell hit will net you a lot more damage.
Quote:
From my understanding wrath is the status quo druid nuke for raiding. Course I can't speak from experiance I've never raided with a boomkin before. Just what I've heard.
Starfire is better than Wrath in raids, pretty much period, and that's even before factoring in Curse of Shadows (+10/13% arcane damage). There aren't any other boosts to Nature damage other than Stormstrike (Enh Shaman), and that won't be sustained since it has a cooldown.
The only reason to use Wrath over Starfire is if the mob won't live the whole Starfire duration - which is to say, mostly on trash. For bosses, Starfire is the way to go.
Quote:
Meh, 610 armor doesn't seem that much to me. Not casting it would allow for a bit more than half a Wrath. Now if only the "Imp FF" talent would give something decent like +Damage or +Crit it'd be so much nicer.
I guess if there is a lot of physical damage in your raid it's worth it, but I remain skeptical as is my nature. (I don't need to be convinced anyway, I'm not gonna stalk you if you keep using it)
I guess if there is a lot of physical damage in your raid it's worth it, but I remain skeptical as is my nature. (I don't need to be convinced anyway, I'm not gonna stalk you if you keep using it)
Faerie Fire is a aprox. 6% of a damage boost for melee DPS; even more if you have Armor Penetration from other sources (gear, mainly). It's like a Warlock not wanting to cast Curse of Elements in a raid because he could be Shadowbolting instead. =p
That's without factoring in Imp. FF, of course, but not everyone gets that talent. If you have a Feral Druid and no Imp. FF then let him cast it.
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