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Anesthetic PoisonFollow
I hit 68 on my rogue and went to the trainer. However for whatever reason I can't train in anesthetic poison. Is this a talent in a talent tree? Is there some quest or requirement I'm missing here?
You'll never use it.
If I do not miss my guess, it could be that your poison skill is not high enough to allow you to learn it. Try looking at the skills that you are unable to train at the trainer. This should tell you how far from the required poison skill you are. After that just go make a few batches and you should be able to learn it.
Level up poisons. Other than that, it's garbage, so don't worry.
So it's not worth using?
With rogues having threat wipe(vanish), the only time you'll need it is if you have a fury warrior tanking for you. Any competitive tank will be able to maintain a much higher thread level than you will be producing, so it is a gimp in damage for no reason.
Otherwise Instant > Anesthetic...
I still use it, but just to be different. It does make me do a little less dps though...
Otherwise Instant > Anesthetic...
I still use it, but just to be different. It does make me do a little less dps though...
I confess, I've always used Anaesthetic in instances, but I guess I never really thought about it in depth. I don't agree that any tank will necessarily be able to keep higher threat than a Rogue going all-out. It's nice to think that every tank you group with will be equally geared, and be expert at keeping aggro, but for most people, that's simply unrealistic. If vanish is available, then fine, but sometimes it isn't - s**t happens.
That said, assuming you're watching your threat (which you'd better be), I'm now thinking that there's simply no reason to use Anaesthetic, for the simple reason that if your threat is getting too high, you can just stop DPSing. Having instant poison gives you more DPS available when you need it, and if you need to stop building threat, just... stop.
Is that pretty much why the previous responses were saying Anaesthetic's a waste of time? Or is there another reason I've missed altogether?
Edit: Nope, just thought about it a bit more, and I'm confused again :p I'm pretty sure the threat-free damage from Anaesthetic would be better for overall DPS in any situation where you're threat-capped. So, is everyone else basically saying that Rogues are never, or at least rarely, threat-capped in boss fights?
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 4:44pm by zhaharik
That said, assuming you're watching your threat (which you'd better be), I'm now thinking that there's simply no reason to use Anaesthetic, for the simple reason that if your threat is getting too high, you can just stop DPSing. Having instant poison gives you more DPS available when you need it, and if you need to stop building threat, just... stop.
Is that pretty much why the previous responses were saying Anaesthetic's a waste of time? Or is there another reason I've missed altogether?
Edit: Nope, just thought about it a bit more, and I'm confused again :p I'm pretty sure the threat-free damage from Anaesthetic would be better for overall DPS in any situation where you're threat-capped. So, is everyone else basically saying that Rogues are never, or at least rarely, threat-capped in boss fights?
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 4:44pm by zhaharik
zhaharik wrote:
Edit: Nope, just thought about it a bit more, and I'm confused again :p I'm pretty sure the threat-free damage from Anaesthetic would be better for overall DPS in any situation where you're threat-capped. So, is everyone else basically saying that Rogues are never, or at least rarely, threat-capped in boss fights?
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 4:44pm by zhaharik
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 4:44pm by zhaharik
Bingo!
In the boss fights for raids, you will be doing it with your guild tanks.
I never go over the tanks threat once I have popped vanish. Heck, I was blowing AR at the start of the fight for prince so I could use 2x extra the other week...
Of course we are talking about the fights that you are running with your guild, in 5-mans, oh boy. I was overaggroing a tank with my white damage in heroic mech...
It's very easy to stay under the threat cap, especially with pallies. I only out TPS bad tanks.
Anesthetic poison is pretty much useless frog, you're better off just using dual deadly (or instant, whatever floats your boat really).
Very useful poison in all kinds of PuGs. Especially later on when you reach high DPS. Adds a bit of safety for trash clearing - in heroics you can be one-shooted if unlucky, so better safe than sorry.
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Very useful poison in all kinds of PuGs. Especially later on when you reach high DPS. Adds a bit of safety for trash clearing - in heroics you can be one-shooted if unlucky, so better safe than sorry.
Except if you're pulling trash aggro in a heroic, it's doubtful having anesthetic poison on would have made the difference.
Right now I can easily pull aggro from a tank that is below raiding tank level. So I am effectively damage capped by his threat generation level. Using non-aggro poison is a pure DPS gain from that point.
It all depends on your TPS vs tank TPS.
It all depends on your TPS vs tank TPS.
Useless poison indeed. Only time I ever used it was in Khara after the raid leader had held a 15 minute rant about how useless it was. He got prettty pissed when I applied it, then started spamming my `Jarraf applied Anesthetic poison! He´s gonna pawn now!´
If you´re afraid of getting agro, just jam the vanish button now and then.
If you´re afraid of getting agro, just jam the vanish button now and then.
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Right now I can easily pull aggro from a tank that is below raiding tank level. So I am effectively damage capped by his threat generation level. Using non-aggro poison is a pure DPS gain from that point.
It all depends on your TPS vs tank TPS.
It all depends on your TPS vs tank TPS.
"Below raiding tank level"? I'm assuming you're talking about his gear, which, if anything, should make his tanking easier if he has a clue how to play his class. Poorer gear means he's getting hit harder, which means he's getting more rage, which means he's less restricted in his use of threat-generating abilities. Provided the healer can keep up, the only limiting factor to your TPS is the skill level of the tank.
To Beardownmanup;
I think that by "Below raiding tank level" he ment that the tanks gear isn't good enough to raid in.
In which case, agro caused by poison is the last thing you need to worry about. 2.7K Mutilates, anyone?
I think that by "Below raiding tank level" he ment that the tanks gear isn't good enough to raid in.
In which case, agro caused by poison is the last thing you need to worry about. 2.7K Mutilates, anyone?
Sorry to add another question to the thread, but if threat management is an issue, would spamming feint every so often not help the tank to maintain top aggro? At least rather then having to pop vanish when you dont need to and use it when you want if you want to generate combo points (dependent on build. with premed) or just to drop all aggro if needed.
At least to me, this is how I would manage threat, even though it cost energy, that is what it is for. Is this not very efficient in the end?
At least to me, this is how I would manage threat, even though it cost energy, that is what it is for. Is this not very efficient in the end?
Feint doesn't scale, and therefore becomes quickly obsolete.
12 posts
I had the same problem yesterday. I was at 374 poisons and making orange recipies to cap but it stopped at 374. I went to the poison vendor and Anesthetic Poison was now available even though it came out yellow when I purchased it. I created one more orange recipe and hit 375.
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Right now I can easily pull aggro from a tank that is below raiding tank level. So I am effectively damage capped by his threat generation level. Using non-aggro poison is a pure DPS gain from that point.
It all depends on your TPS vs tank TPS.
It all depends on your TPS vs tank TPS.
Aggro is about skill, not gear. You don't generate more threat because you have more armor. It actually hurts your tanking to be overgeared. If your tank sucks that bad, then you've got other things to worry about.
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Sorry to add another question to the thread, but if threat management is an issue, would spamming feint every so often not help the tank to maintain top aggro?
Feint is garbage. It's a piddly 1k threat, which I generate in about two seconds with salvation on. If your tank is so bad you have to feint so he can keep aggro, yell at him for being bad and drop group.
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At least to me, this is how I would manage threat, even though it cost energy, that is what it is for. Is this not very efficient in the end?
It's incredibly inefficient. My Sinister Strikes average out to be right around 1000 damage, so every feint is a loss of 500 damage. Hitting that every 10 seconds is a loss of 50 DPS, which is a very large chunk. If I'm in a pug and my tank is that bad, I just drop the group. I have better things to do than carry a group through easy content because the tank is worthless.
Funny story, though. I was doing heroic Mech last week and I ran into the worst tank in the world. In order to not pull aggro, I just turned auto attack on, feinted every 10 seconds and did nothing else. Doing that generated about 80% of the same threat he was doing. I stayed in the group out of sheer morbid curiosity. We managed to make it to the first boss (don't know how), and something funny happened. I forgot about the charges, as I normally stay down below and just dodge bombs to avoid getting blown up by idiots. This time I was by the tank, and ended up getting the damage buff. I instantly ripped aggro with a 3k white crit. I went to hit Vanish, and realized I was out of flash powder. I was AR/Prep at the time, so I just Evasion tanked him with AR up, ripping him a new *******. Tanked him down to 5% when the tank got the opposite charge and just stood by me like a dumbass, killing us both. The rest of the group finished him off without us.
Nooblestick wrote:
Aggro is about skill, not gear. You don't generate more threat because you have more armor. It actually hurts your tanking to be overgeared. If your tank sucks that bad, then you've got other things to worry about.
While there is a large portion of threat that depends on skill, much of it depends on gear as well. Tank TPS scales with gear, just like Rogue DPS does, except tank TPS scales with with block value and strength.
As far as anesthetic poison is concerned, it was good back when it actually lowered your threat on a proc, but it's useless now that it's only effect is to generate no threat on it's poison damage. The only time you'd even consider it is if you're threat capped. As others have said, if your poison procs are a limiting factory, you need to get yourself a new tank.
CamelToad wrote:
Nooblestick wrote:
Aggro is about skill, not gear. You don't generate more threat because you have more armor. It actually hurts your tanking to be overgeared. If your tank sucks that bad, then you've got other things to worry about.
While there is a large portion of threat that depends on skill, much of it depends on gear as well. Tank TPS scales with gear, just like Rogue DPS does, except tank TPS scales with with block value and strength.
Rogue threat is about skill, not gear.
Vanish at 70% and you can go ******* on a mob and they'll never once turn towards you.
CamelToad wrote:
Nooblestick wrote:
Aggro is about skill, not gear. You don't generate more threat because you have more armor. It actually hurts your tanking to be overgeared. If your tank sucks that bad, then you've got other things to worry about.
While there is a large portion of threat that depends on skill, much of it depends on gear as well. Tank TPS scales with gear, just like Rogue DPS does, except tank TPS scales with with block value and strength.
It scales poorly. More to the point, while you'll have more Block Value (not much STR, which is also the worst aggro scaling stat - you probably meant Agility or Expertise) and Hit Rating you'll also have massively more armor, dodge and parry. All the Shield Block Value in the world doesn't help much if you're generating no Rage since the mob just isn't _hitting_ you. This isn't an issue against raid bosses (typicially), but it is a huge one against Heroic mobs who can't punch their way out of a paper bag.
Raid tanks, even just in early T5 gear, often have to mix in either PvP armor or DPS armor just to _reduce_ their avoidance so they can actually do something other than autoattack the mobs. The one exception, of course, is Protadins.
Stupid Protadins. Threat scaling is for kids!
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Feint is garbage. It's a piddly 1k threat, which I generate in about two seconds with salvation on. If your tank is so bad you have to feint so he can keep aggro, yell at him for being bad and drop group.
It's actually worse than that. Feint reduces your aggro by 1050, but _is effected by Aggro Modifiers like Salv or the innate Rogue Threat Reduction_. Feint always removes threat equivalent to dealing 1050 damage; with Salvation plus the innate 29% threat reduction this means it actually only reduces 626 threat.
Neat info on Salv + Feint, didn't know that. But honestly, if you have Salv and still need to feint, damn. Even with full raid buffs I can usually go all out from the get-go if I've got Salv (still have to Vanish after or sometimes before AR, but who doesn't?).
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