How well would a guild thats been 100% PVP since it's creation do in raids? My guild is starting kara soon and im wondering if it's just a lost hope since most of my guildies don't even have any PVE gear, just their trusty arena sets. Should we spend a few weeks gearing people up in 5-Mans/Heriocs before we step into kara, or should we be good enough to clear a few bosses and be able to gear up in there? I know my gear isn't good enough yet, i'm in the process of working on that.
(WoW won't let me open armory to get my guild page up so people can see how most people are geared. If anyone else is able to open it up, it's called <OMG BRB ICE CREAM TRUCK> on Dethecus.)
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id say if you are all good pve players you would likely be able to clear kz.
if pve is a "new" area for most of you id say get in there and try it out, and in the spare time try to get some pve gear aswell.
bosses 1-5 really isnt very "tactical"(opera kinda depends on what event) so think youl have a good chance there.
to rest is maybe require abit more pve-mindset, but if your quicklearners you should prob be able to clear the place without to much gear change needed
afterall it has been cleared in greens so why not in pvp gear :)
if pve is a "new" area for most of you id say get in there and try it out, and in the spare time try to get some pve gear aswell.
bosses 1-5 really isnt very "tactical"(opera kinda depends on what event) so think youl have a good chance there.
to rest is maybe require abit more pve-mindset, but if your quicklearners you should prob be able to clear the place without to much gear change needed
afterall it has been cleared in greens so why not in pvp gear :)
Your tanks will need to gear up. PVP gear doesn't have defense rating on it. Your healers won't be able to keep up with them getting critted all over the place. DPS and, I would think, healers should be fine. Though everybody's mana pool will be a bit gimpy.
To add to what Ieatrocks said, you will all have low mana pools so some PvE gearing is welcome.
But the first couple of bosses shouldnt be any problem whatsoever if you have a coordinated group.
(think somewhere up to Curator)
And farming those bosses for a few weeks will probably improve you enough to keep going.
And i agree on that tanks need to gear for pve and that most people need to respec for pve.
edit: if your guild will all help your tanks gear up in heroics everyone else will pick up some PvE gear too.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 11:22am by Aethien
But the first couple of bosses shouldnt be any problem whatsoever if you have a coordinated group.
(think somewhere up to Curator)
And farming those bosses for a few weeks will probably improve you enough to keep going.
And i agree on that tanks need to gear for pve and that most people need to respec for pve.
edit: if your guild will all help your tanks gear up in heroics everyone else will pick up some PvE gear too.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 11:22am by Aethien
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With all due respect, I am not sure I totally agree with Ieatrock. If the tanks are in full arena gear their HP will be more than sufficient and the resilience might be enough to make them uncrittable.
I am not sure that would apply to warrior tanks as they have more uses for def rating than stricly crit reduction, but druid tanks tend to stop at 415 def rating anyway as, once crit immunity is reached, they have more use for armor and dodge than more def rating.
Druid tank with survival of the fittest has already 3% crit chance reduction, making it so that only another 2.6% crit reduction is needed by either def rating or resilience.
If I am not mistaken that means only 100 resilience or so, which you will have for sure if the druid tank is wearing PVP / Arena gear.
The pvp / arena gear has plenty of armor on it (more than the standard clefthoof set which most ferals tank use in Kara) and if selected carefully, the PVP gear has nice amounts of agi to get sufficient agi for dodge and additional armor.
I am not sure that would apply to warrior tanks as they have more uses for def rating than stricly crit reduction, but druid tanks tend to stop at 415 def rating anyway as, once crit immunity is reached, they have more use for armor and dodge than more def rating.
Druid tank with survival of the fittest has already 3% crit chance reduction, making it so that only another 2.6% crit reduction is needed by either def rating or resilience.
If I am not mistaken that means only 100 resilience or so, which you will have for sure if the druid tank is wearing PVP / Arena gear.
The pvp / arena gear has plenty of armor on it (more than the standard clefthoof set which most ferals tank use in Kara) and if selected carefully, the PVP gear has nice amounts of agi to get sufficient agi for dodge and additional armor.
Yeah, even without pve gear animal boss and Attunmen should be pretty easy. Moroes... I'm not sure about, maiden either. Oz and BBW from opera shouldn't be too bad since those have a lot of running around in them, but Romulo hits pretty hard iirc and the ushers on the way to opera I know hit like trucks (I've been second on threat when they've frozen the tank a time or two >_>). Might want to just farm animal bosses and Attunmen for a couple of weeks while running normal 70 instances and taking stabs at the other bosses in Kara. A tank without a good amount of defense will get run over in a heroic probably far easier than in most of the first floor of Kara.
Honestly, the only thing that would stop you from being able to do the whole first floor very easily, I think, will be tanks taking too much damage. Certain bosses, like shade for example, I think would actually be easier in pvp gear with it's inordinately high stam.
Edit:
Dutchqh posted while I was. XD
I tend to forget about Druid tanks (odd since our MT is a bear), but I'm still not sure a warrior or pally could do it. I've seen the difference even a little bit of defense rating makes on my roommate's prot pally. He went from getting run over in heroics like a little girl to being fine within about 2 days after he dumped a bunch of +Spell damage for defense rating. The difference was immense.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 5:54am by Ieatrocks
Honestly, the only thing that would stop you from being able to do the whole first floor very easily, I think, will be tanks taking too much damage. Certain bosses, like shade for example, I think would actually be easier in pvp gear with it's inordinately high stam.
Edit:
Dutchqh posted while I was. XD
I tend to forget about Druid tanks (odd since our MT is a bear), but I'm still not sure a warrior or pally could do it. I've seen the difference even a little bit of defense rating makes on my roommate's prot pally. He went from getting run over in heroics like a little girl to being fine within about 2 days after he dumped a bunch of +Spell damage for defense rating. The difference was immense.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 5:54am by Ieatrocks
Has anyone done some theorycraft on resiliance versus higher def ratings and such?
I'd be curious to see if resiliance pays off better than more armor or more def, or even more stam...
If you are uncrittable, can a boss hurt you as much?
Magic vs. physical..
All of the factors would make for an interesting study.
I'd be curious to see if resiliance pays off better than more armor or more def, or even more stam...
If you are uncrittable, can a boss hurt you as much?
Magic vs. physical..
All of the factors would make for an interesting study.
sloshot wrote:
Has anyone done some theorycraft on resiliance versus higher def ratings and such?
I'd be curious to see if resiliance pays off better than more armor or more def, or even more stam...
If you are uncrittable, can a boss hurt you as much?
Magic vs. physical..
All of the factors would make for an interesting study.
I'd be curious to see if resiliance pays off better than more armor or more def, or even more stam...
If you are uncrittable, can a boss hurt you as much?
Magic vs. physical..
All of the factors would make for an interesting study.
Hmmm, I thought the reason to stock up on resilience was to reduce crits, and the reason to stock up on +def rating was to reduce crushing blows. Crits and crushing blows are two totally different things aren't they?
defence rating is to reduce crits to 0% (490 skill to be exact) for PVE
defenc rating also give + to Dodge, Parry, Block, and Miss
Resilience reduces crit for both PVP and PVE but is kind of a waste in PVE
Resilience also reduces crit damage, wasted in PVE if you cant be crit
Resilience also reduces DoT damage, dont know if that works in PVE or not, but still pretty much a waste. as there are no affliction warlocks for bosses (to the best of my knowledge)
you need to reduce crit to 0%
you need an avoidence total (including block % even if by definition is not really "avoidence") to equal 102.4% to prevent crushing blow.
if those to things are not met. it wont matter how much HP your tank has.
Resilience CAN replace defence rating, i think. however. Defence rating also adds to avoidance numbers.
now its my opinion that a warrior tank could possible tank with MOSTLY pvp gear, not all, as enough res can push off crit, and shield wall can get you uncrushable. but you will still lack other avoidance values like dodge and parry. also note that extra avoidance is needed for War tanks as if any boss attacks faster then 2.5 sec(shield wall's limitation), warriors will be crushable for bit, along with any parries the boss gets will also mess up warriors crushablility. so. with that said it should be possible.
a pally in pvp tank gear cannot ever tank end game in PvP gear. due to them needing every single peice of gear they can find having a very good amount of avoidance on it. due to war's shield wall having +75% block, and pally's holy shield having only 35% block (if after the right libram is aquired).
and i have no idea how druids work to give a good opinion about them. but they do get -3% crit talent, making them need far less Defence rating. and to the best of my knowledge, they cant reach uncrushable anyway so they rely on massive HP to make up for that. to me it sounds like you need crazy Healer Mp5 to make a druid tank work out. but again i dont know squat about druids or healers.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 2:18pm by RuenBahamut
EDIT: See'ing as the only true limitation to this question is the tank vs PVP/PVE gear. maybe this question would be better answered in a War or Druid forums. someone may have already done it in all pvp gear.
as a prot pally main, i can tell you that prot pally will need a miracle if he can survive in only PVP gear. or even half PVP gear for that matter.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 2:34pm by RuenBahamut
defenc rating also give + to Dodge, Parry, Block, and Miss
Resilience reduces crit for both PVP and PVE but is kind of a waste in PVE
Resilience also reduces crit damage, wasted in PVE if you cant be crit
Resilience also reduces DoT damage, dont know if that works in PVE or not, but still pretty much a waste. as there are no affliction warlocks for bosses (to the best of my knowledge)
you need to reduce crit to 0%
you need an avoidence total (including block % even if by definition is not really "avoidence") to equal 102.4% to prevent crushing blow.
if those to things are not met. it wont matter how much HP your tank has.
Resilience CAN replace defence rating, i think. however. Defence rating also adds to avoidance numbers.
now its my opinion that a warrior tank could possible tank with MOSTLY pvp gear, not all, as enough res can push off crit, and shield wall can get you uncrushable. but you will still lack other avoidance values like dodge and parry. also note that extra avoidance is needed for War tanks as if any boss attacks faster then 2.5 sec(shield wall's limitation), warriors will be crushable for bit, along with any parries the boss gets will also mess up warriors crushablility. so. with that said it should be possible.
a pally in pvp tank gear cannot ever tank end game in PvP gear. due to them needing every single peice of gear they can find having a very good amount of avoidance on it. due to war's shield wall having +75% block, and pally's holy shield having only 35% block (if after the right libram is aquired).
and i have no idea how druids work to give a good opinion about them. but they do get -3% crit talent, making them need far less Defence rating. and to the best of my knowledge, they cant reach uncrushable anyway so they rely on massive HP to make up for that. to me it sounds like you need crazy Healer Mp5 to make a druid tank work out. but again i dont know squat about druids or healers.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 2:18pm by RuenBahamut
EDIT: See'ing as the only true limitation to this question is the tank vs PVP/PVE gear. maybe this question would be better answered in a War or Druid forums. someone may have already done it in all pvp gear.
as a prot pally main, i can tell you that prot pally will need a miracle if he can survive in only PVP gear. or even half PVP gear for that matter.
Edited, Dec 7th 2007 2:34pm by RuenBahamut
Hmm... I don't know if it's because I raid with a really knowledgeable group for Kara, but from my experience, Heroics are just as hard, if not harder than Kara. So if you can handle heroics, you should be ready for at least most of Kara.
If DPS isnt their problem Curator shouldn't be either. I've seen him downed in the first evocate. You just MD the last flare to a tank and have everyone plow into Curator. Under 2 min down time.
Quote:
If DPS isnt their problem Curator shouldn't be either. I've seen him downed in the first evocate. You just MD the last flare to a tank and have everyone plow into Curator. Under 2 min down time.
I demand proof, the fastest we've got him down was second evocate
With pvp gear your tanks probably will have more than enough HP because pvp gear is stamina whoring, but your dps and healers will also be getting to much sta from the gear instead of AP, Agi, Int, etc. Oh and every one will have mucho grande armor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CQfFsSs9Q
doesnt die during the first evo but almost atleast :P
doesnt die during the first evo but almost atleast :P
He enrages and comes out of evo at 15% so that's as good as it gets
(might be 20%, I can never remember)
(might be 20%, I can never remember)
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15% i thought.
And burst dps wont be their problem, it'll be sustained dps in longer fights.
And burst dps wont be their problem, it'll be sustained dps in longer fights.
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