Alright I got a quick couple questions, any input would be greatly appreciated.
As a druid tank ive been wondering just how important defense is. The only thing it effects is our dodge, and from what ive read 415 defense is the number to aim for to become immune to being crit'ed.
Now it doesnt make much sense to me to go for defense gear, which seems to lack any damage dealing stats on them. The only reason that is a concern to me is that any of the instances ive ran, ive been top 2 on the dps (yes i know im a tank, but ive come to the conclusion that we hold threat with damage).
Now my question is this.. Can i get away with not worrying about defense and get back into the honor grind for arena/pvp gear and be alright with going with the resilence gear? Or doesnt it count for the same?
Ive read one of the guides that said, i think.. 2.16% reduced chance of being crit is what to aim for? Now if so, i could get away with going with the damage/resilence gear right?
67 druid, Rhu.. Id post an armory link, but no idea how.
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Defense and resilenceFollow
druids no longer hold threat thru damage. the modifers that gave druids such insane scaling threat were reduced near the beginning of BC to more warrior-like levels. in other words, critting mangle or maul, while a nice threat boost, no longer means the mob is cemented to you.
go for defense. it not only does crit immunity and dodge increase, but it also increases your chance to be missed whenever something attacks you. altho some pieces with resilience are just better stat-wise than defense pieces are, thats more of a judgement call based on your choices at the time.
go for defense. it not only does crit immunity and dodge increase, but it also increases your chance to be missed whenever something attacks you. altho some pieces with resilience are just better stat-wise than defense pieces are, thats more of a judgement call based on your choices at the time.
Yes, they count for the same, wich is making you uncrittable.
You will need 415 Defense with 3/3 in sotf (if I'm not mistaken) or you can forget about defense and go with Resillience, but I don't know the exact number, though.
Edited, Dec 6th 2007 5:43pm by Brisin
You will need 415 Defense with 3/3 in sotf (if I'm not mistaken) or you can forget about defense and go with Resillience, but I don't know the exact number, though.
Edited, Dec 6th 2007 5:43pm by Brisin
With Survival of the Fittest you need 2.6% crit reduction from defense and/or resilience.
The Heavy Clefthoof is a nice easy way to get there, but the arena stuff is indeed a much better way to go. You need 103 points of resilience to hit crit immunity which can easily be achieved with 3 pieces of arena gear.
And don't forget that the Vindicator's LEATHER Belt, Boots & Bracers are also fantastic tanking items (better than any Karazhan gear) and are amazingly cheap & easy to get. (The kodohide stuff is better for DPS (Str, Agi & Sta), but the rogue Leather stuff is more focused on Agi & Sta which is better for tanking - but it does have slightly less AR)
Edited, Dec 6th 2007 10:52pm by RareBeast
The Heavy Clefthoof is a nice easy way to get there, but the arena stuff is indeed a much better way to go. You need 103 points of resilience to hit crit immunity which can easily be achieved with 3 pieces of arena gear.
And don't forget that the Vindicator's LEATHER Belt, Boots & Bracers are also fantastic tanking items (better than any Karazhan gear) and are amazingly cheap & easy to get. (The kodohide stuff is better for DPS (Str, Agi & Sta), but the rogue Leather stuff is more focused on Agi & Sta which is better for tanking - but it does have slightly less AR)
Edited, Dec 6th 2007 10:52pm by RareBeast
42 posts
Thanks brisin and beast.. P
Pretty much what i needed to know, i just wasnt sure.
Ive been told that resilence doesnt count for becoming immune to crits, but ill go with you guys.
Quor, im not quite sure.. Other then having mangle, swipe and maul.. The only other means of threat is growl..
If thats not damage based, not sure what is.
Thanks again guys/girls
Pretty much what i needed to know, i just wasnt sure.
Ive been told that resilence doesnt count for becoming immune to crits, but ill go with you guys.
Quor, im not quite sure.. Other then having mangle, swipe and maul.. The only other means of threat is growl..
If thats not damage based, not sure what is.
Thanks again guys/girls
its not damage based because maul, mangle, and swipe all have inherent numerical bonuses to threat. lacerate too. regardless of how much actual damage you do, the main source of threat comes from the flat modifiers added to the skills.
back in the day, it was almost purely damage based, to the point that a single crit maul from a druid with good AP gear genrally meant the mob was attached to that druid for the duration of the fight or the druids life, whichever ended first. all you needed to tank as a druid in those days were the 11 points in feral for feral charge, feral instinct, and ferocity. nowadays, you need mangle in order to be the best tank you can be, and even then druids now dont nearly approach the threat gen capability of what the older druids could do.
so thats why i say its not based on damage. sure, the damage helps, but the main benefit you get is from the inherent base threat added to each move.
back in the day, it was almost purely damage based, to the point that a single crit maul from a druid with good AP gear genrally meant the mob was attached to that druid for the duration of the fight or the druids life, whichever ended first. all you needed to tank as a druid in those days were the 11 points in feral for feral charge, feral instinct, and ferocity. nowadays, you need mangle in order to be the best tank you can be, and even then druids now dont nearly approach the threat gen capability of what the older druids could do.
so thats why i say its not based on damage. sure, the damage helps, but the main benefit you get is from the inherent base threat added to each move.
Bear threat is still damage based Quor. It's the only way that our threat scales. We can't stack defence to boost our threat like warriors and we don't stack spell spell damage like pallys. We boost our threat through damage only. Also, even though alot of our attacks have a flat threat bonus, we still get a threat multiplier on the actual damage done. Bear form has an innate threat multiplier and the feral instinct talent increases that. Also mangle has no flat threat bonus, instead in has it's own multiplier. These multipliers also all stack with crits, and a well geared druid tank can easily have 25% crit.
Alot of bear's abilities have flat threat bonuses, true. But the vast majority of a druid's threat still comes from threat multipliers on damage. I may not be able to hold 6 mobs with swipe alone anymore, but I can pull over 1000 tps on a single target now.
Edited, Dec 6th 2007 8:00pm by SirJac
Alot of bear's abilities have flat threat bonuses, true. But the vast majority of a druid's threat still comes from threat multipliers on damage. I may not be able to hold 6 mobs with swipe alone anymore, but I can pull over 1000 tps on a single target now.
Edited, Dec 6th 2007 8:00pm by SirJac
CattieBeCool wrote:
Thanks brisin and beast.. P
Pretty much what i needed to know, i just wasnt sure.
Ive been told that resilence doesnt count for becoming immune to crits, but ill go with you guys.
Quor, im not quite sure.. Other then having mangle, swipe and maul.. The only other means of threat is growl..
If thats not damage based, not sure what is.
Thanks again guys/girls
Pretty much what i needed to know, i just wasnt sure.
Ive been told that resilence doesnt count for becoming immune to crits, but ill go with you guys.
Quor, im not quite sure.. Other then having mangle, swipe and maul.. The only other means of threat is growl..
If thats not damage based, not sure what is.
Thanks again guys/girls
growl does not cause any threat on its own, it only matches your threat
with the one highest on the threat table.
meaning: this is an ability you should only use if you are far behind someone
on the threat meter and cannot get back on top with normal threat moves,
or if you lose aggro.
oh, there are still threat multipliers jac, but theyre nowhere near what they used to be. when i say a single crit maul could glue a raid boss to a resto druid, i wasnt kidding. nowadays druids actually have to fight to maintain aggro, as opposed to previously where a druid could literally get a hard helmet irl, bind maul to the left half of the keyboard, faerie fire feral to the right half, and swipe to the numpad, then roll his/her head across the keyboard, swiping occasionally.
its funny, but its also mostly true.
as i said before, the multipliers exists, but theyre on a much more even level with their warrior counterparts than before. and yes, they do still scale with damage, but not nearly as much as they used too. in short, stacking pure AP to tank isnt a good idea, but having SOME AP is necessary. conversely, that "some" AP used to be all the AP you needed to hold aggro off a 40-man raid going all out. if a druid stacked AP (and could get away with tanking while doing so, as many did shortly before the xpac) there wasnt a damn thing short of death that could take aggro from the druid. even BoP would just drop aggro for the duration of the blessing, and then it went right back to the druid like nothing had happened.
so, to sum up, yes, AP and crit are important, but they dont have nearly the effect they used too. defense is better than resilience due to the fact that it A.) isnt half-wasting itemization, and B.) increases your chance to dodge AND be missed, but many easily accessible pieces of gear have resilience, thus making it an acceptable (and even better in some cases) alternative for those incapable of or unwilling to follow traditional gear progression pathways.
its funny, but its also mostly true.
as i said before, the multipliers exists, but theyre on a much more even level with their warrior counterparts than before. and yes, they do still scale with damage, but not nearly as much as they used too. in short, stacking pure AP to tank isnt a good idea, but having SOME AP is necessary. conversely, that "some" AP used to be all the AP you needed to hold aggro off a 40-man raid going all out. if a druid stacked AP (and could get away with tanking while doing so, as many did shortly before the xpac) there wasnt a damn thing short of death that could take aggro from the druid. even BoP would just drop aggro for the duration of the blessing, and then it went right back to the druid like nothing had happened.
so, to sum up, yes, AP and crit are important, but they dont have nearly the effect they used too. defense is better than resilience due to the fact that it A.) isnt half-wasting itemization, and B.) increases your chance to dodge AND be missed, but many easily accessible pieces of gear have resilience, thus making it an acceptable (and even better in some cases) alternative for those incapable of or unwilling to follow traditional gear progression pathways.
I remember the old times. Bear threat was obscenely powerful. Swipe put out more threat on each target then sunder. Holding a mob was easy, staying alive was hard.
Luckily, now most of our tanking peices come with lots of str and agi so there really isn't any need to go out of our way to boost our threat. As I said, I can sustain 1000 TPS in a raid in T4. With pally buffs and innate class threat modfiers, you'd need to do more the 1700dps to even risk pulling hate, and no class can sustain that kind of dps in T4ish gear. Sure, we arn't the threat monsters we were before but it doesn't take much skill to put out some big threat. Instead of being able to go afk halfway through the fight and not worry about losing the mob, I have to wait until the boss is at 30% before I can go for a bio break.
Luckily, now most of our tanking peices come with lots of str and agi so there really isn't any need to go out of our way to boost our threat. As I said, I can sustain 1000 TPS in a raid in T4. With pally buffs and innate class threat modfiers, you'd need to do more the 1700dps to even risk pulling hate, and no class can sustain that kind of dps in T4ish gear. Sure, we arn't the threat monsters we were before but it doesn't take much skill to put out some big threat. Instead of being able to go afk halfway through the fight and not worry about losing the mob, I have to wait until the boss is at 30% before I can go for a bio break.
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