Okay, just want some thoughts here. Guildmate of mine has gotten tired of healing on his Pally and respec'd him to Retro even though we used to lol at the spec together in the past. He just wants an excuse not to heal constantly methinks. :P
Anyway, I thought it'd be fun to see how he would fare as Retro. Thing is... he keeps using SoR? At first he still had a lot of Holy gear on so I thought it was only normal, but now he says he pretty much have none left and got mostly Retro gear.
He says it hits for about 700 each hit and is better/constant damage and SoC isn't reliable and all that. I told him about SoB but he says it kills him too quickly. O_o
Oh and he seems to put too much emphasis on +SpellDmg, even though he doesn't really have that much. Looking at his Armory, I see he picked a lot of the "Scaled" and "Lamellar" PvP stuff. (The gear with Int, Stam and +SpellDmg)
Anyhow, just wondering if he's being a complete nub about it or if it's actually a decent alternative.
If you want to look him up, here's his Armory.
What boggles me is that his Hunter is actually pretty good and he's pushing some pretty good DPS so he's not completely ignorant. Hunter has better gear, of course, but I mean he's always played him very well.
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Well I bet neither his white damage nor his crit rate is nowhere near where it could be, so having 700 SoR damage, while nice, isn't the only measure of how much damage he does, and I bet stacked against a Ret Paladin like Tommyguns, his dps would be left in the dust.
SoB takes FOREVER to kill me when I use it, I honestly don't even notice the damage amongst the other damage I'm taking.
SoB takes FOREVER to kill me when I use it, I honestly don't even notice the damage amongst the other damage I'm taking.
Selverein wrote:
Okay, just want some thoughts here. Guildmate of mine has gotten tired of healing on his Pally and respec'd him to Retro even though we used to lol at the spec together in the past. He just wants an excuse not to heal constantly methinks. :P
Anyway, I thought it'd be fun to see how he would fare as Retro. Thing is... he keeps using SoR? At first he still had a lot of Holy gear on so I thought it was only normal, but now he says he pretty much have none left and got mostly Retro gear.
He says it hits for about 700 each hit and is better/constant damage and SoC isn't reliable and all that. I told him about SoB but he says it kills him too quickly. O_o
Oh and he seems to put too much emphasis on +SpellDmg, even though he doesn't really have that much. Looking at his Armory, I see he picked a lot of the "Scaled" and "Lamellar" PvP stuff. (The gear with Int, Stam and +SpellDmg)
Anyhow, just wondering if he's being a complete nub about it or if it's actually a decent alternative.
If you want to look him up, here's his Armory.
What boggles me is that his Hunter is actually pretty good and he's pushing some pretty good DPS so he's not completely ignorant. Hunter has better gear, of course, but I mean he's always played him very well.
Anyway, I thought it'd be fun to see how he would fare as Retro. Thing is... he keeps using SoR? At first he still had a lot of Holy gear on so I thought it was only normal, but now he says he pretty much have none left and got mostly Retro gear.
He says it hits for about 700 each hit and is better/constant damage and SoC isn't reliable and all that. I told him about SoB but he says it kills him too quickly. O_o
Oh and he seems to put too much emphasis on +SpellDmg, even though he doesn't really have that much. Looking at his Armory, I see he picked a lot of the "Scaled" and "Lamellar" PvP stuff. (The gear with Int, Stam and +SpellDmg)
Anyhow, just wondering if he's being a complete nub about it or if it's actually a decent alternative.
If you want to look him up, here's his Armory.
What boggles me is that his Hunter is actually pretty good and he's pushing some pretty good DPS so he's not completely ignorant. Hunter has better gear, of course, but I mean he's always played him very well.
um, SoR with ret? like you said if he had a healing gear set at first and was using it while he got new gear i could maybe see it. but not once he's got ret gear.
SoR scales with +spell damage and doesn't crit and the judgement crits based on spell crit. its steady, i'll give him that...and when i would tank as ret i'd use SoR for the reliability. also cause SoC sucks with a 2h. the holy spec has a bonus to spell damage... and healer gear has spell crit... so SoR works wonders in the hands of a well geared holy pally.
SoC scales with weapon damage and crits based on melee crit. the Ret tree has an 8% bonus to your melee crit. also has bonues to your melee damage. everything about the Ret tree scales well with melee stats. even CS which was the one thing that still benefited from spell damage won't next patch.
i don't know much about blood, so i'm not gonna comment about that one, except to say i've heard its really good.
so in the end id you like the way SoR does damage, go shockadin and gear like a caster. if you want to do even more damage, use SoC with ret and gear like a warrior.
and i don't like calling people nub. however, he is definitely not gonna win awards for best ret if he's using SoR.
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and i don't like calling people nub.
Don't worry, I'm not using it as an insult but rather to poke fun at him. We're both rather stubborn and I'm having a hell of a time trying to convince him that he should go for more physical stats and switch to SoC or SoB, depending on the situation.
Quote:
SoB takes FOREVER to kill me when I use it, I honestly don't even notice the damage amongst the other damage I'm taking.
Me neither, but then again I'm Holy so I don't have a lot of physical stats to power it up so much. I'm guessing I'd take more damage if I did have the gear, though.
Quote:
I bet stacked against a Ret Paladin like Tommyguns, his dps would be left in the dust.
And yah, that's what I was thinking too. :P
I was wondering if there was some fool-proof argument I could bring that would make him realize he should tweak his gear and style. =/
Try this:
A lot of his damage is going to come from white damage. He will spread himself to thin tying to increase both white and yellow spell damage. If he focuses on Str/AP, he will increase white damage AND his yellow damage from SoC/SoB. There isn't any gear that will increase both is white and yellow damage from SoR. Its that simple.
With the changes to Crusader Strike, spell damage is getting less useful. Crusader strike will factor from Weapon damage only, no more +40% spell damage.
I hear those "changes" a lot lately. At least on the boards.
But since I'm not that much into Retro I haven't bothered to dig up anything about it. Is it gonna be changed in the next patch? Sometime in the future? In the next expansion? =/
But since I'm not that much into Retro I haven't bothered to dig up anything about it. Is it gonna be changed in the next patch? Sometime in the future? In the next expansion? =/
I think it's being changed to 110% of weapon damage instead of a normalized attack with +40% bonus from spell damage. Slated for the 2.3.2 patch, though there's still plenty of time for Blizzard to change it.
ok, yes, SoR does good damage. with my healing gear i have approxmtely 500 +spell damage.
i use oathkeeper when i'm solo'ing so it has a 3.5 speed (i think.)
the spell coefficient for SoR is 9.2%/1.0 weapon speed or 10.8%/1.0 weapon speed. so oathkeeper gains 37.8% of my spell damage. thats 189 per tick. 189/3.5 = 54 dps. not a bad addition on top of SoR's normal damage (i'm sorry i don't remember it).
the judgement gets approximately 70%. this is 350 damage every judgement. if your shockadin build includes improved judgment then this adds 350/8 = 43.7 dps approxmately. otherwise its 350/10 = 35 dps. so SoR with my healadin's build adds 89-97.7 dps. thats not including improved SoR and i don't feel like adding that in now, sorry. it'll add 15% to a shockadins SoR but not ret. (unless you choose this instead of precision in prot...)
with my rets build i have about 30 spell damage. assumeably your friend has more like 200. this brings the bonus damage down to 34.8-39 dps. asuming a 3.5 weapon speed. but to get this spell damage your losing out on str/ap/crit which means you'll have small white hits and not many crits.... and CS which no longer gets a spell damage bonus when 2.3.2 hits will hurt.
white hits and CS (assuming 2.3.2) are not affected by spell damage
ok, i can't look up armory (doing this from my phone) but assuming he's using holy or prot gear to get his +spell damage he can probably get 100-200 more str and some agi/+crit rating. i'll mostly just look at the str cause i'm lazy.
ok, assuming 140 more str (not hard to replace spell damage gear with warrior gear and get this... and it makes for nice easy math) you would have an additional 280 AP which is an increase of 20dps or with that same 3.5 speed weapon it'd be 70 damage per swing.
SoC will proc appx 7 ppm for so the dps from that will be 70*.70*7/60 = 5.7 dps
also that ap will add to CS which will be 35*1.1/6=13 dps
so, i'm getting 38.7 dps from the str i think is easy to get in place of the spell damage. so actually its pretty close increase.... haha. never did the math before.
do keep in mind though that this is just str vs spell damge for these 2 seals and CS. if you let go of some int to get str or agil or crit rating you'll see the difference even more. also keep in mind i'm not taking crits into the equation. a ret's crit rate should be high and crit rate affects white, SoC and CS, but not SoR. boosting AP increases the value of crits (i.e. white, SoC, CS but not SoR)
so suffice it to say that not including crit and assuming kinda moderate spell damage and str they come out fairly even. but if i ever took the time to calculate crit into the equation SoC would quickly outpace SoR. also, warrior gear (which is most of what a ret should get) also replaces spell crit, mp5 and int/spi with more str, agil/crit and stam. all of which help ret with AP based abilities even more than these calculations...
doesn't feel like this showed it real well, so if anyone has issue with my math pls let me know. or add what i forgot to factor in. and some day (just cause i like math) i'll compare a good ret build with a less good one and make a thread with it. keep an eye out for it.
Edited, Dec 5th 2007 7:42pm by toolofjesus
i use oathkeeper when i'm solo'ing so it has a 3.5 speed (i think.)
the spell coefficient for SoR is 9.2%/1.0 weapon speed or 10.8%/1.0 weapon speed. so oathkeeper gains 37.8% of my spell damage. thats 189 per tick. 189/3.5 = 54 dps. not a bad addition on top of SoR's normal damage (i'm sorry i don't remember it).
the judgement gets approximately 70%. this is 350 damage every judgement. if your shockadin build includes improved judgment then this adds 350/8 = 43.7 dps approxmately. otherwise its 350/10 = 35 dps. so SoR with my healadin's build adds 89-97.7 dps. thats not including improved SoR and i don't feel like adding that in now, sorry. it'll add 15% to a shockadins SoR but not ret. (unless you choose this instead of precision in prot...)
with my rets build i have about 30 spell damage. assumeably your friend has more like 200. this brings the bonus damage down to 34.8-39 dps. asuming a 3.5 weapon speed. but to get this spell damage your losing out on str/ap/crit which means you'll have small white hits and not many crits.... and CS which no longer gets a spell damage bonus when 2.3.2 hits will hurt.
white hits and CS (assuming 2.3.2) are not affected by spell damage
ok, i can't look up armory (doing this from my phone) but assuming he's using holy or prot gear to get his +spell damage he can probably get 100-200 more str and some agi/+crit rating. i'll mostly just look at the str cause i'm lazy.
ok, assuming 140 more str (not hard to replace spell damage gear with warrior gear and get this... and it makes for nice easy math) you would have an additional 280 AP which is an increase of 20dps or with that same 3.5 speed weapon it'd be 70 damage per swing.
SoC will proc appx 7 ppm for so the dps from that will be 70*.70*7/60 = 5.7 dps
also that ap will add to CS which will be 35*1.1/6=13 dps
so, i'm getting 38.7 dps from the str i think is easy to get in place of the spell damage. so actually its pretty close increase.... haha. never did the math before.
do keep in mind though that this is just str vs spell damge for these 2 seals and CS. if you let go of some int to get str or agil or crit rating you'll see the difference even more. also keep in mind i'm not taking crits into the equation. a ret's crit rate should be high and crit rate affects white, SoC and CS, but not SoR. boosting AP increases the value of crits (i.e. white, SoC, CS but not SoR)
so suffice it to say that not including crit and assuming kinda moderate spell damage and str they come out fairly even. but if i ever took the time to calculate crit into the equation SoC would quickly outpace SoR. also, warrior gear (which is most of what a ret should get) also replaces spell crit, mp5 and int/spi with more str, agil/crit and stam. all of which help ret with AP based abilities even more than these calculations...
doesn't feel like this showed it real well, so if anyone has issue with my math pls let me know. or add what i forgot to factor in. and some day (just cause i like math) i'll compare a good ret build with a less good one and make a thread with it. keep an eye out for it.
Edited, Dec 5th 2007 7:42pm by toolofjesus
That cleared it out - ty :) (eventhou it was long as hell :P.. Hehe).
I'm prot (allways been), but when I'm running around on my own I useually slap on some more spelldmg/warrior gear (Gets me to 250 - 300 spelldmg or so) and use oathkeeper to wack down casters fast (with JSoC + SoR). I know protection + 2h = no go, but damn it's good fun to be fighting a mob, be jumped by a rogue, get a reckoning proc turn around, critt and smack his face in in 3 hits :P.
I'm prot (allways been), but when I'm running around on my own I useually slap on some more spelldmg/warrior gear (Gets me to 250 - 300 spelldmg or so) and use oathkeeper to wack down casters fast (with JSoC + SoR). I know protection + 2h = no go, but damn it's good fun to be fighting a mob, be jumped by a rogue, get a reckoning proc turn around, critt and smack his face in in 3 hits :P.
yeah, actually i noticed some flaws in my calculations... redoing it on paper to make sure its accurate... eventually i'll put it up there...
Paladin:
Retrobution?
Warlock:
Destroction?
What devil spawn comes up with these abbreviations?
Retrobution?
Warlock:
Destroction?
What devil spawn comes up with these abbreviations?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Just sounds better than Retri. =/
Edit: Or Destru, for that matter.
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 9:07am by Selverein
Edit: Or Destru, for that matter.
Edited, Dec 10th 2007 9:07am by Selverein
Ret.... thats all ya need.
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