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Slam rank 2, worth it?Follow

#1 Dec 02 2007 at 5:48 PM Rating: Default
Just wanted to know the opinion of everyone. I am a 2h Arms/Fury DPS MS warrios, and I just took my first rank of slam and love it. However I just elized that I cannot swing faster then the move cooldown, which is a little more the 1 sec. So whats the point of having a .5 slam when you cannot use the move faster then 1 sec? If anyone can point out the advantage you have other then the first slam that this incures, please enlighten me, thanks!

-Samsen
#2 Dec 02 2007 at 5:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:

Slam - A Few Words

Okay, maybe many more than a few. This is a paraphrased copy of a guide I wrote explaining how to use Slam. Enjoy!

In order to understand slam, let's first take a look at the ability itself;

Slam
All Stances - 15 Rage
Max Rank Tooltip: Slams the opponent, causing weapon damage plus 140.
Talent References: Focused Rage, Improved Slam

Slam is the only true Warrior spell, barring oddities such as racials (Warstomp and Escape Artist come to mind). It functions in the same way as a spell, although it is no longer effected by pushback effects (which is to say, incoming damage does not increase the cast time).

Because it is a spell, using the ability will reset your weapon swing timer as of the end of the channel... which is to say, if you Slam and have a 3.8 speed weapon, your next autoattack will occur 3.8 seconds after the Slam ends. This occurs no matter what point in your normal swing timer you used the ability, which means that if you Slam at the wrong point - say, 3.7 seconds after your previous autoattack - you'll gain nothing and will in fact _lose_ damage. Consider: 3.7 plus .5 means your weapon swing timer became 4.2, instead of the 3.8 it would have been if you did nothing, and that doesn't even factor in the lost Rage. This means that proper use of Slam requires _very good timing_.

Slam also triggers the global cooldown, which for Warriors is 1.5s. This means that even with 2/2 Imp. Slam, you cannot "spam" Slam more than once every 1.5s. So one might ask, what in the hell is the point of the ability?

I'm glad you asked.

With use of a swing timer mod (I heavily recommend Quartz, an Ace2 mod with a customizable swing timer) and good reactions and planning, you can Slam directly after your normal autoattack swing... which means that you're using 15 Rage in order to deal your autoattack damage over .5 seconds, plus the crit modifier. It essentially allows you to get a free "double swing" after attacks at a relatively small Rage cost.

A brief summary, before we continue:
Slam requires _very good_ timing, preferably aided by a Swing Timer mod.
Slam resets your swing timer when used.
Slam, when used improperly, is worse than doing nothing at all.

I'm going to assume a 3.6 speed weapon for these numbers, as that is the current 'default' weapon speed - barring Smithing weapons, there are few epics that are slower than this. If you're using a Smithing weapon (that's not Sword) or a Worldbreaker, these numbers are still accurate... just more so.

You will never have perfectly precise timing, even with a swing timer modm but you can get _very good_ timing. Human reaction speed being what it is, I'm going to assume that even with the swing timer mod you're not hitting Slam until .25s after a swing. Personally, using the spell metrics mod I wrote, I'm activating Slam about .1-.2s after the swing but that's due to a good connection and a lot of practice, to the point where it's become second nature.

You're attacking the mob, and get a weapon swing. .25s later, the server gets your "omgslam" message and you start the channel... giving you a .75s "swing", at which point the swing timer resets. However, because Slam does activate the GCD you have one second before you can perform any other actions. After the GCD goes away, you hit Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst or Whirlwind. And then... you wait. To summarize;

Swing - .75 Slam (Reset) - 3.6 - 2.6 (Mortal Strike) - 1.1 (Nothing) - Swing - .75 Slam (Reset)... repeat.

Why do nothing? Simple. If you hit all of these abilities with _perfect_ timing, you will have .4s of GCD after your next ability when your Swing Timer goes up - and believe me, you will not have perfect timing. If you have Flurry, the problem becomes significantly worse as well.

One of the purposes behind using MS/BT/WW is additionally rage generation, as they are somewhat more Rage efficient than Slam is when used every 1.5s due to not interfering with the swing timer. If Slam had no GCD associated with it, Mortal Strike and Whirlwind would be obsolete in situations where you did not need the MS debuff or the AE damage on whirlwind... but you do, and a .5s Slam with no GCD trigger would be more than slightly overpowered (consider that with a full Rage bar, that's 6 Slams in 3 seconds. In PvP if nothing else, you could throw a Stun up and absolutely drop someone with nothing they could do about it at all.)

I haven’t mentioned one of the primary aspects that does make this strategy work, and that is the mighty Windfury Totem. Without Windfury, your damage as 2H is going to be lacking in the extreme - it provides such a massive boost to damage and Rage Generation it allows us to easily forgo Endless Rage and actually get talents like Death Wish and Imp. Slam, which provide the huge boost in damage that we need in order to compete.

To summarize: GCD is your enemy and your friend... but mostly your enemy. Learn to manage them - GCD's are to you what Combo Points would be to a Rogue, one of your most valuable resources. Use it wisely. Keeping track of GCD and your swing timer and anything else the boss might do and keeping an eye on your threat meter is why playing a Slam warrior is far from easy. Luckily, it's extremely rewarding... but it requires considerably more concentration and attention than DW DPS ever will.

Slam after every autoattack if possible. The only time when it's advisable to spam Slam over and over is during your Death Wish/Trinket cycle if you have the rage available, and even then you should skimp on one Slam cycle every 10s to lob off a MS and Whirlwind, then go back to Slams after the next autoattack.

Damage Rotations

Using Slam as an effective damage tool is rather tricky. Doing it properly takes attention, the use of a Swing Timer mod (see the Slam guide for more details) and some knowledge of global cooldowns. I've covered most of the basics above, so I'll assume you've already read them and I won't rehash the information.

Question #1: Is it worth leaving Mortal Strike/Whirlwind/Bloodthirst on cooldown for a second or two in order to ensure Slam use right as you autoattack?
Yes. Kind of. Sometimes, no. See Question #5.

Question #2: Is there a point where Slam rotations become unsustainable?
Yes, actually. You can either have insufficient Rage generation to support it (possible, but with even moderate gearing and a Windfury totem it's rather unlikely) or your weapon can be too fast. Assuming zero reaction time, the fastest possible Slam/Instant Attack rotation is 2.5s. Assuming normal human reaction time and latency, any weapon speed faster than 2.75s is likely to be in some degree wasted. This would mean that any weapon at 3.4 speed or faster is wasting time and damage with full Flurry; combined with the fact that Slam isn't normalized and there's even more compelling reasons to get an extremely slow weapon. With a 3.6 speed weapon, Slam and 5/5 Flurry runs at 2.88 swing speed; add in much more haste, either from trinkets or the Haste Potion, and it's most likely largely wasted.

Question #3: What should I do during Bloodlust/Heroism?
Good question. Bloodlust actually reduces the global cooldown by 30%, as well as providing 30% haste; this means that your rotations are (in theory) unaffected, although human reaction time/latency still comes into play. Other haste effects do not provide this benefit. You will also have to work in additional Slams to cover the loss of instant attacks (as the cooldown itself has not been lowered).

Question #4: Just how important is my weapon speed?
Very. I run upwards of 4,000 AP raid buffed in my current 2H Fury build. With a 3.8 speed weapon (Such as, oh, a Stormherald) Slam hits for 140 + (4000 / 14 + 127) * 3.8 = 1708 damage. Even dropping down to 3.6 speed with equivalent DPS (say, the Lionheart series of smithing weapons) puts it at 140 + (4000 / 14 + 127) * 3.6 = 1625 damage. That's an aprox. 5% damage increase to Slam... and as you'll be using Slam a lot, speed matters. See also question #2 and the notations about haste.

Question #5: I have a very slow weapon, but no Flurry (or, I cannot land a crit and thus effectively have no Flurry at the moment). Should I use two instant attacks in this cycle and push Slam back slightly?
Yes, if possible. Even if the second instant attack is a Hamstring. Sample cycle at 3.8 speed:

0s: Autoattack
.25: Start Slam
.75: Slam Completes, Reset
0: Global Cooldown
1.0: GCD Ends, Cast Mortal Strike (./Bloodthirst/Whirlwind/Whatever)
2.5: GCD Ends, Cast Whirlwind (./Mortal Strike/Bloodthirst/Hamstring)
3.8: Autoattack, Reset
.2: GCD Ends
.3: Start Slam

By using the Global Cooldown to help manage your timers at this speed, you don't lose much. You can effectively slam on the Slam button until GCD relents and lets it go through, and do not have to watch the Swing Timer at all. Moreover, the loss in time is comparable to that lost from human reaction speed anyway; let it fly! (Also, if you do have Flurry, the additional Hamstring proc can help bring it back up.)
#3 Dec 02 2007 at 7:40 PM Rating: Decent
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2,717 posts
Few errors in your post I would like to point out...
1) You're talking about imp slam. When you just say slam, we come to the post thinking you're talking about whether you should pay the gold for slam rank 2 because you think slam rank 1 sucks.
2) The GCD is 1.5 seconds for most classes, 1.0 seconds for rogues and druids in cat form. Thus, ranks 1 and 2 of imp slam are both going to lower slam below the GCD.

Now onto why to put points into it...which is IMO the best 2 points I've spent for PvP...
PvE: Slam resets your swing timer. Meaning once you finish slam, you start the next swing. If you're smart enough to use a slow weapon, like say a 3.5 attack speed, then slam + swing would take 5.0 seconds. However, reducing the slam time by 1 second reduces the total time to 4.0 seconds, which is a 20% reduction in attack time (it would take 25% haste to equivilate that amount of extra damage). If that is all you do is auto-slam...auto-slam then you will end up with a huge increase in overall DPS with imp slam. In comparison, the best hunter DPS talent is serpent's swiftness, which takes 5 points to get 20% damage increase. Imp slam could yield around 25%.
PvP: With players constantly moving, it's hard to hit them. If you start a slam they could be out of range after 1.5 seconds. However, in 0.5 seconds, they can still take hits from it.

I know RPZip answered it, but that is quite a lot of text for someone to read who's IQ is too low to read the FAQs.
#4 Dec 03 2007 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
Never use two slams in a row.

This is the common misconception of the timing and the gcd. The most efficient use of slam is swing/slam/instant. If you use two slams in a row, you are missing out on white swings for rage gains and damage. Thus, the less time it takes for your slam to cast, the less time it adds to the time between white hits.

Well why use slam if it's eating your swing timer? It does about the same damage as ms but at half the rage cost. Plus it gives you another damaging ability to use while ms and ww are both on cooldown.
#5 Dec 03 2007 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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1,331 posts
If you don't have the imp slam talent, you can slam spam back to back pretty efficiently. But generally, most people that use slam, have imp slam, and thus should not use slam back to back.
#6 Dec 04 2007 at 5:36 AM Rating: Decent
I guess I need to repeat this: Never use two slams in a row.

0.0 white hit, slam start
0.5 slam end
1.5 slam start
2.0 slam end
3.0 slam start
3.5 slam end
4.5 slam start
5.0 slam end
6.0 slam start

Assuming all hits = 500 damage, you've done 2500 damage and gained zero rage... meaning you don't even have enough rage to keep this rotation going.

0.0 white hit, slam start
0.5 slam end
1.5 mortal strike
4.0 white hit, slam start
4.5 slam end
5.5 whirlwind

3.5 swing speed with 2/2 slam. Even though this looks like less swings, you get 3000 damage plus you are gaining rage from white swings as well as windfury attacks.


The comparison between the different ranks of slam just spaces out the attack cycle. So if you're going to use slam, you want to have 2 talent points in it.
#7 Dec 04 2007 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
DocMartin wrote:
I guess I need to repeat this: Never use two slams in a row.

0.0 white hit, slam start
0.5 slam end
1.5 slam start
2.0 slam end
3.0 slam start
3.5 slam end
4.5 slam start
5.0 slam end
6.0 slam start

Assuming all hits = 500 damage, you've done 2500 damage and gained zero rage... meaning you don't even have enough rage to keep this rotation going.

0.0 white hit, slam start
0.5 slam end
1.5 mortal strike
4.0 white hit, slam start
4.5 slam end
5.5 whirlwind

3.5 swing speed with 2/2 slam. Even though this looks like less swings, you get 3000 damage plus you are gaining rage from white swings as well as windfury attacks.


The comparison between the different ranks of slam just spaces out the attack cycle. So if you're going to use slam, you want to have 2 talent points in it.


He understands how it works. The point was just that you're not losing any efficiency by Slam spamming without Imp. Slam, since it takes as long to use as the GCD. If you do Auto/Slam/Instant there are spaces in the attack cycle where you don't have an Instant to use, and since you can't proc WW off Hamstring anymore there's not much else to do but Slam spam if you have the Rage to do so.
#8 Dec 06 2007 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
Actually, there are very few spaces during Auto/Slam/Instant that you don't have MS or WW at your disposal if you actually write out the whole repeating cycle. And there are still plenty of things that you can do including tc, demo, battle/commanding, berzerker rage, death wish... and hamstring will still proc sword specs, so it's not like you're ever lacking for gcd options. It is a very rage intensive cycle, so putting slams back to back only rage starves you further and removes any possibility of white damage.
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