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I have been reading the Paladin boards for some time and have learned so much in how to play my Paladin. I just turned 68 and am currently Ret about to respec to Holy. On the Paladin guide on this forum I see points in the Improved Righteous Fury under the instance/raid healing suggested spec. My question is why? I thought that righteous fury increases threat which a Holy Pally does not need to do. Please enlighten me!
Thats for tankadins not healadins.
No, it's for healadins too - check the specs.
The reasoning is that Pally heals are so low aggro anyway that the extra threat from them doesn't really matter but the 6% reduction in damage taken is desired.
The reasoning is that Pally heals are so low aggro anyway that the extra threat from them doesn't really matter but the 6% reduction in damage taken is desired.
personally, with wearing plate, i would think that 6% DR isnt a nessasary complication. but i dont know jack about a healadin.
unless of course you are healing for PvP. thats a different story for me.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 11:59am by RuenBahamut
unless of course you are healing for PvP. thats a different story for me.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 11:59am by RuenBahamut
Indeed, Imp RF will be good for PvP and soloing, where threat doesn't matter. I also tend to use it in raid, unless there's a chance a mob goes loose and wants a bite at my face. And even if you are not directly getting hit, AoE's happen. In 5-man instances, with a single tank, I tend not to use it. I don't really get hurt anyway.
Otherwise, yeah, Pally heals are ultra low threat. If I see someone lower than me on Omen/KTM it's most likely cause they're slacking. Bumping your healing threat by 90% still doesn't make it as high as any other healing class' healing threat.
Otherwise, yeah, Pally heals are ultra low threat. If I see someone lower than me on Omen/KTM it's most likely cause they're slacking. Bumping your healing threat by 90% still doesn't make it as high as any other healing class' healing threat.
I include Imp. RF in the builds for a few reasons.
A) Holy tree is not bloated, there are actually very few talents that are absolutely necessary, so going down prot to help survivability is a good idea.
B) The 6% DR as Celcio said, while it isn't super awesome, it's not bad either.
C) Even with Imp. RF up, you still aren't pulling as much healing aggro as other healers, so you don't really need to worry about that. To explain:
Healing already generates 50% aggro, as a typical game mechanic. If a shaman or a priest or a druid casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is halved when calculating threat.
Paladin healing is another 50% of that, so if a Paladin casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is divided by four when calculating threat.
With Imp. RF up, a Paladin generates 190% threat of their usual holy spells. So, 25% * 190% = 47.5% threat, which is still lower than the 50% than other classes do.
D) There are some raid fights in which the boss uses a special move or something that is designed so that a healer is probably going to get hit, and if you can increase your threat on that fight, it's better if the Paladin gets hit than if the other, squishier, healers get hit. So putting Salv on the other healers and putting Imp. RF up on yourself increases the probability that you are going to be the one targeted and the damage you are going to take is reduced by 6% more than usual.
A) Holy tree is not bloated, there are actually very few talents that are absolutely necessary, so going down prot to help survivability is a good idea.
B) The 6% DR as Celcio said, while it isn't super awesome, it's not bad either.
C) Even with Imp. RF up, you still aren't pulling as much healing aggro as other healers, so you don't really need to worry about that. To explain:
Healing already generates 50% aggro, as a typical game mechanic. If a shaman or a priest or a druid casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is halved when calculating threat.
Paladin healing is another 50% of that, so if a Paladin casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is divided by four when calculating threat.
With Imp. RF up, a Paladin generates 190% threat of their usual holy spells. So, 25% * 190% = 47.5% threat, which is still lower than the 50% than other classes do.
D) There are some raid fights in which the boss uses a special move or something that is designed so that a healer is probably going to get hit, and if you can increase your threat on that fight, it's better if the Paladin gets hit than if the other, squishier, healers get hit. So putting Salv on the other healers and putting Imp. RF up on yourself increases the probability that you are going to be the one targeted and the damage you are going to take is reduced by 6% more than usual.
Hi
Imp RF assumes that you are under attack. So PvE healers do not need it.
You need it during solo grinding or in PvP figth. In both cases I suggest to use some shockadin or mixed holy/prot build.
Regards
Imp RF assumes that you are under attack. So PvE healers do not need it.
You need it during solo grinding or in PvP figth. In both cases I suggest to use some shockadin or mixed holy/prot build.
Regards
No it doesn't read my post.
The RuenBahamut of Doom wrote:
personally, with wearing plate, i would think that 6% DR isnt a nessasary complication. but i dont know jack about a healadin.
unless of course you are healing for PvP. thats a different story for me.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 11:59am by RuenBahamut
unless of course you are healing for PvP. thats a different story for me.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 11:59am by RuenBahamut
Quite the opposite. 6% DR on plate is the MOST useful since that 6%= a ton more AC than 6% on cloth.
I would say nearly equivalent to 4k armor if you have a base of 15k. and that doesnt include spell mitigation.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 12:34pm by KTurner
Dilbrt wrote:
-Improved Righteous Fury > Most of the people who take this are doing it for PvP, but its also a talent that makes tidewalker easier because its easier to get murloc aggro
I'm a Healing spec but put 15 points in protection, including Imp Righteous Fury specifically for damage reduction while soloing. I haven't put it up while healing for instances, but I also haven't run anything along the lines of the fights Capt. Jack mentions in case D in his post.
As someone who solos a lot, the 15 points in protection have made a huge difference in my survivability. RF just adds a bit more to that.
[Edit]: Now, if they can just fix the bug that's making it cost 1000 mana to cast!
Edited, Nov 30th 2007 6:34am by meagherly
As someone who solos a lot, the 15 points in protection have made a huge difference in my survivability. RF just adds a bit more to that.
[Edit]: Now, if they can just fix the bug that's making it cost 1000 mana to cast!
Edited, Nov 30th 2007 6:34am by meagherly
Damn, I see a respec comming up in my future.
The Honorable CapJack wrote:
I include Imp. RF in the builds for a few reasons.
A) Holy tree is not bloated, there are actually very few talents that are absolutely necessary, so going down prot to help survivability is a good idea.
B) The 6% DR as Celcio said, while it isn't super awesome, it's not bad either.
C) Even with Imp. RF up, you still aren't pulling as much healing aggro as other healers, so you don't really need to worry about that. To explain:
Healing already generates 50% aggro, as a typical game mechanic. If a shaman or a priest or a druid casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is halved when calculating threat.
Paladin healing is another 50% of that, so if a Paladin casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is divided by four when calculating threat.
With Imp. RF up, a Paladin generates 190% threat of their usual holy spells. So, 25% * 190% = 47.5% threat, which is still lower than the 50% than other classes do.
D) There are some raid fights in which the boss uses a special move or something that is designed so that a healer is probably going to get hit, and if you can increase your threat on that fight, it's better if the Paladin gets hit than if the other, squishier, healers get hit. So putting Salv on the other healers and putting Imp. RF up on yourself increases the probability that you are going to be the one targeted and the damage you are going to take is reduced by 6% more than usual.
A) Holy tree is not bloated, there are actually very few talents that are absolutely necessary, so going down prot to help survivability is a good idea.
B) The 6% DR as Celcio said, while it isn't super awesome, it's not bad either.
C) Even with Imp. RF up, you still aren't pulling as much healing aggro as other healers, so you don't really need to worry about that. To explain:
Healing already generates 50% aggro, as a typical game mechanic. If a shaman or a priest or a druid casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is halved when calculating threat.
Paladin healing is another 50% of that, so if a Paladin casts a healing spell, the amount of healing done is divided by four when calculating threat.
With Imp. RF up, a Paladin generates 190% threat of their usual holy spells. So, 25% * 190% = 47.5% threat, which is still lower than the 50% than other classes do.
D) There are some raid fights in which the boss uses a special move or something that is designed so that a healer is probably going to get hit, and if you can increase your threat on that fight, it's better if the Paladin gets hit than if the other, squishier, healers get hit. So putting Salv on the other healers and putting Imp. RF up on yourself increases the probability that you are going to be the one targeted and the damage you are going to take is reduced by 6% more than usual.
Honestly tidewalker is the ONLY time you want to use it. Other healers should know how to play their class enough not to pull aggro and die. I have never seen a single bossfight, aside from tidewalker, that you would ever want to get more threat than someone. I know, in theory, all that sounds like a good idea jack but I can tell you through personal experience that its really really not a good thing to do. Save it for soloing, PvP, and tidewalker.
that all makes sense, but this is why im not a healer. 8)
Hi,
I know the calculations that healadin can not draw agro even with RF on ... but I have another experience.
I had tank an add while the raid was killing Moroe. So I put RF on. When the add was dead I start to heal. I had mixed tank/healer equipment so I put JoW on Moroe and start bash it with SoR (no judgement).
After casting 3-4 heals the tank yelled on me to stop DPS because I am already 2nd on the agro list... with healer hammer and SoR.
So I think healers do not need RF in a (good) party.
------------
About Retri and RF.
The average DPS of retri paldins is mediate. Retri paladins are famous for their burst DPS. And during the Burst they often drow agro from the tank (before 2.3) So even for Retri paladins RF is not healthy.
Regards
Hart
Edited, Dec 1st 2007 3:42am by Hartzos
Edited, Dec 1st 2007 3:44am by Hartzos
I know the calculations that healadin can not draw agro even with RF on ... but I have another experience.
I had tank an add while the raid was killing Moroe. So I put RF on. When the add was dead I start to heal. I had mixed tank/healer equipment so I put JoW on Moroe and start bash it with SoR (no judgement).
After casting 3-4 heals the tank yelled on me to stop DPS because I am already 2nd on the agro list... with healer hammer and SoR.
So I think healers do not need RF in a (good) party.
------------
About Retri and RF.
The average DPS of retri paldins is mediate. Retri paladins are famous for their burst DPS. And during the Burst they often drow agro from the tank (before 2.3) So even for Retri paladins RF is not healthy.
Regards
Hart
Edited, Dec 1st 2007 3:42am by Hartzos
Edited, Dec 1st 2007 3:44am by Hartzos
Hi,
Who said anything about including Improved RF in a Ret build?
Regards
Kyuske
Who said anything about including Improved RF in a Ret build?
Regards
Kyuske
Hartzos wrote:
So I think healers do not need RF in a (good) party.
Oh yeah and they may as well wear all cloth.
In a perfect world you're right.
If you consistently run in a perfect world I'd like to know in which mason jar in which state your soul is kept. Only because I seem to be shy a trinket and you seem to be heavy at least one.
Why hasn't this discussion died? We've fully answered the question and there really isn't a debate on it. There are only 3 situations that you would ever use RF as a holy paladin... PvP, Tidewalker, and solo grinding, those three situations ARE worth throwing points into this (there isn't much else to throw points in) and the spell should never be used outside of those 3 situations else much death and destruction will occur. How many times do I need to keep saying this? :(
Dilbrt wrote:
Honestly tidewalker is the ONLY time you want to use it. Other healers should know how to play their class enough not to pull aggro and die. I have never seen a single bossfight, aside from tidewalker, that you would ever want to get more threat than someone. I know, in theory, all that sounds like a good idea jack but I can tell you through personal experience that its really really not a good thing to do. Save it for soloing, PvP, and tidewalker.
It's kinda useful on Nightbane during the air phase. And the damage reduction can be useful in a number of places.
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
It's kinda useful on Nightbane during the air phase. And the damage reduction can be useful in a number of places.
I'm gonna have to agree on this one. Whenever I've fought Nightbane I've been put as an extra healer and had the Warrior tank him, and during the air phase I consecrate the adds and do my best to tank them in my healing gear. Works out pretty well, though granted it may not be as good if a Holy Paladin was doing it given the lack of Prot talents, but I don't know for sure. At least in my case it's very useful to have RF active healing for that fight.
Heck, I have it up all the time healing anyways. Like others say over and over, my Paly heals cause so little threat, and mine being sub par ... Yea, nothing to worry about :)
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
It's kinda useful on Nightbane during the air phase. And the damage reduction can be useful in a number of places.
The damage reduction is not worth increasing your threat generation by 90%. Plus on nightbane if you use imp RF during the air phase you will most certainly be the instant target of him when he lands. You can bubble out of it once, but the other two times you're praying to the gods of tank pickups that it doesn't run over and one-shot you.
One of *THE BEST* things about paladin healers is our threat reduction to our healing spells. Armor doesn't make that large an impact when you're healbotting, they nerfed out illumination, and other classes can easy get as much healing/crit/mp5 as we have. Just ask a priest how much better his life would be if he NEVER had to fade again while healing. If you try to use imp RF for its damage reduction outside of soloing or PvP you are throwing away something that makes us as good as we are.
Dilbrt wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
It's kinda useful on Nightbane during the air phase. And the damage reduction can be useful in a number of places.
The damage reduction is not worth increasing your threat generation by 90%. Plus on nightbane if you use imp RF during the air phase you will most certainly be the instant target of him when he lands. You can bubble out of it once, but the other two times you're praying to the gods of tank pickups that it doesn't run over and one-shot you.
One of *THE BEST* things about paladin healers is our threat reduction to our healing spells. Armor doesn't make that large an impact when you're healbotting, they nerfed out illumination, and other classes can easy get as much healing/crit/mp5 as we have. Just ask a priest how much better his life would be if he NEVER had to fade again while healing. If you try to use imp RF for its damage reduction outside of soloing or PvP you are throwing away something that makes us as good as we are.
He resets aggro when he's landing, and it's very helpful to have the adds head for a Paladin rather than a... squishier healer. You can just as easily click it off once the adds are dead and not use it during the ground phase, it's not like casting RF is a big mana drain.
The situations (outside of Heroics) where a healer is going to pull aggro on anything are limited anyway. In raids it's almost always one tank per mob save certain AE situations, so the bonus aggro doesn't really matter.
Dilbrt wrote:
Honestly tidewalker is the ONLY time you want to use it. Other healers should know how to play their class enough not to pull aggro and die. I have never seen a single bossfight, aside from tidewalker, that you would ever want to get more threat than someone. I know, in theory, all that sounds like a good idea jack but I can tell you through personal experience that its really really not a good thing to do. Save it for soloing, PvP, and tidewalker.
I read with Nightbane that when he summons skeletons they generally run at healers, so being top on the healing threat as a Paladin might not be a bad idea. That and tidewalker are the only ones that I've heard of.
Dilbrt wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
It's kinda useful on Nightbane during the air phase. And the damage reduction can be useful in a number of places.
The damage reduction is not worth increasing your threat generation by 90%. Plus on nightbane if you use imp RF during the air phase you will most certainly be the instant target of him when he lands. You can bubble out of it once, but the other two times you're praying to the gods of tank pickups that it doesn't run over and one-shot you.
One of *THE BEST* things about paladin healers is our threat reduction to our healing spells. Armor doesn't make that large an impact when you're healbotting, they nerfed out illumination, and other classes can easy get as much healing/crit/mp5 as we have. Just ask a priest how much better his life would be if he NEVER had to fade again while healing. If you try to use imp RF for its damage reduction outside of soloing or PvP you are throwing away something that makes us as good as we are.
There are also fights where aggro is less than an issue. Especially for a guild learning Karazhan, where damage reduction on Shade of Aran can be handy(I'm sure there are other fights in 25 man raids, I just haven't gotten to them). Not to mention the fights where the tank will have plenty of aggro and healing aggro isn't an issue, but a little damage reduction can make a huge difference.
There are certainly fights where aggro can be a problem(Leotheras, for instance), and I wouldn't use it there. But there are other fights where putting it up midfight(for to allow the tank to build aggro up first) can give you a nice safety cushion of extra survivability.
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