Ok since I've specced Prot the most frusterating thing I have come into contact with is trying to lead people in instances. While I go on and on about harder games and such, in past experiences EQ/EQ2/DAoC/ect as tank you had at least some input on how you would like the group to go.
As Prot pally this is definatly true -- you know your limits, you know how much agro you'll be able to keep (for the most part) and quite frankly if you're pulling anyways it just makes it that much easier to keep control. So why is it that everyone I've been grouping with as of late completely disregaurds my requests?
Dung 38, decided it was definatly Cath time. I can tank litterally 8 of em even with SPriest as healer. The Lock is SB Spamming a single target, the Mage is off fighting some random monster with Pyro and trying to Kite, and the Ret pally has RF up attacking 1 monster. What the hell!?! The Pally even had Ravager -- I was totally excited how fast we would tear through and I was totally dismayed by people's understanding of how this could be done.
How do you, as Protection Paladins, convey what you want without sounding like a d!ck? Seriously? In my past experiences, it wasn't like I was boss but my suggestions were usually taken and it generally helped (as were other people's suggestions heard.) Even on my DPS characters I respect the tank's style and requests.
Maybe I should just stop PUGs and stick with friends...
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This situation will come back often until you hit higher levels. It's a topic that comes back regularly, it seems people always forget. :P
The lower the level you are, the more you will encounter people with about 15 characters but none past level 45, if you see what I mean. They'll just play for kicks, get bored shortly afterward, start a new toon, etc.
Nothing particularly wrong with that, but you'll often find they are not the most competent players and some suffer from the "I know how to do this!" complex because they've played all classes. And while they may have indeed played all classes, they often lack the real knowledge about game mechanics or classes mechanics.
All in all:
PUG = Bad.
Low level = Bad.
PUG + Low level = Atrocious.
PUG + High level = Potentially decent/good.
The lower the level you are, the more you will encounter people with about 15 characters but none past level 45, if you see what I mean. They'll just play for kicks, get bored shortly afterward, start a new toon, etc.
Nothing particularly wrong with that, but you'll often find they are not the most competent players and some suffer from the "I know how to do this!" complex because they've played all classes. And while they may have indeed played all classes, they often lack the real knowledge about game mechanics or classes mechanics.
All in all:
PUG = Bad.
Low level = Bad.
PUG + Low level = Atrocious.
PUG + High level = Potentially decent/good.
tzsjynx wrote:
Maybe I should just stop PUGs and stick with friends...
if you know enough people your level, then yes, do that...
You're the tank, you get to dictate how the instance goes.
Did you voice your concerns with the rest of the group, and were they just ignored?
I'd put blessing of Salvation the warlock/mage who didn't know how to manage aggro, if they complain, explain to them that it's because they don't know how to manage aggro why they have the blessing (heck, give it to them anyway, regardless).
If they're still belligerant, it's "be a ******** time". Next pull where they still don't get it, just /sit and explain that you're not moving until people can agree to get their crap together. They CAN'T move on without the tank, and they'll either have to choose to a. suck it up and do what you need them to b. (if you're not party leader) kick you out and try to find another tank from the middle of an instance or c. kick the offending party member who doesn't get it.
If the tank isn't happy, NOBODY's happy.
Did you voice your concerns with the rest of the group, and were they just ignored?
I'd put blessing of Salvation the warlock/mage who didn't know how to manage aggro, if they complain, explain to them that it's because they don't know how to manage aggro why they have the blessing (heck, give it to them anyway, regardless).
If they're still belligerant, it's "be a ******** time". Next pull where they still don't get it, just /sit and explain that you're not moving until people can agree to get their crap together. They CAN'T move on without the tank, and they'll either have to choose to a. suck it up and do what you need them to b. (if you're not party leader) kick you out and try to find another tank from the middle of an instance or c. kick the offending party member who doesn't get it.
If the tank isn't happy, NOBODY's happy.
I havent been a Pally very long, but I know how it is with PUGs. Some people only want to out DPS everyone else, etc. Which isnt wrong, but they must understand that it is better to work as a team and have the instance run smoothly.
But you have to understand that while communicating over chat, that tone and wordage can be misinterpeted very easily. So, sometimes just because you know what you are doing and no one else in the group does, you can can still come of as a power-nerd, know-it-all d!ck, and people tend to ignore d!cks. Just be polite as you can be while explaining your PoV. And if they dont like it, kick them or leave. I have been with many talented players and have knowledge of EVERYTHING in the game, but without atleast a little bit of social skills, most will simply write you off. Just dont act like, because your the tank that your word is law, because we are all here for more or less the same reason... to have fun.
I know all that is common sence, but I hope it helps a little.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 1:39pm by surfriderr
But you have to understand that while communicating over chat, that tone and wordage can be misinterpeted very easily. So, sometimes just because you know what you are doing and no one else in the group does, you can can still come of as a power-nerd, know-it-all d!ck, and people tend to ignore d!cks. Just be polite as you can be while explaining your PoV. And if they dont like it, kick them or leave. I have been with many talented players and have knowledge of EVERYTHING in the game, but without atleast a little bit of social skills, most will simply write you off. Just dont act like, because your the tank that your word is law, because we are all here for more or less the same reason... to have fun.
I know all that is common sence, but I hope it helps a little.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 1:39pm by surfriderr
Do you mark the targets with like skull and everything? People are a bit more prone to follow those directions because they are just blaring on their screen. Skull the main target, X the second target, etc... and make sure everyone knows the kill order.
Having (self-proclaimed) mastered the art of Magery and Warlocking (lol) I can tell you I'm a stickler for Crowd Control.
I'm also a stickler for efficiency, though. If I can tank 8, guess what kiddos. We're doing 8 at a time.
My instructions simply put were "Do AEs please, just give me like 5 seconds to build agro." Usually I give Mages Wisdom and Warlocks Kings, but in an AE Group they already had Salv (especially since the Lock was 42.) BTW This is the second time I've been with an idiot Ret Pally who gives everyone Blessing of Light -- do people not read?!
All I wanted was Rain of Fire and Flamestrike/Blizzard, but hell I'm not the kinda guy to tell them how to AE. When I ran a similar instance with a few aquaintences, they did great damage and still kept agro off - using Rain of Fire and Blast Wave/CoC/Flamestrike.
I guess I shoulda just laid it out for em. "YOU do THIS" "YOU do THIS" ect... but I just feel like an *** sometime. This is an MMO, not a RTS, and part of the game is that nobody controls everything -- and alot of times (with compitent people) this definatly creates better group effectiveness.
I just think I'm gonna stick with people I at least "know" a little...
***********
BTW I'm begining to fear the Huntard stereotype is about to be replaced by an equally as true Paladumb stereotype. If one more Paladin with 900m who isn't healing gives me a Blessing of Light I'm gonna flip...
***********
I'm also a stickler for efficiency, though. If I can tank 8, guess what kiddos. We're doing 8 at a time.
My instructions simply put were "Do AEs please, just give me like 5 seconds to build agro." Usually I give Mages Wisdom and Warlocks Kings, but in an AE Group they already had Salv (especially since the Lock was 42.) BTW This is the second time I've been with an idiot Ret Pally who gives everyone Blessing of Light -- do people not read?!
All I wanted was Rain of Fire and Flamestrike/Blizzard, but hell I'm not the kinda guy to tell them how to AE. When I ran a similar instance with a few aquaintences, they did great damage and still kept agro off - using Rain of Fire and Blast Wave/CoC/Flamestrike.
I guess I shoulda just laid it out for em. "YOU do THIS" "YOU do THIS" ect... but I just feel like an *** sometime. This is an MMO, not a RTS, and part of the game is that nobody controls everything -- and alot of times (with compitent people) this definatly creates better group effectiveness.
I just think I'm gonna stick with people I at least "know" a little...
***********
BTW I'm begining to fear the Huntard stereotype is about to be replaced by an equally as true Paladumb stereotype. If one more Paladin with 900m who isn't healing gives me a Blessing of Light I'm gonna flip...
***********
It's really funny. I have a mage alt, and I watch my threat meter like a hawk. My goal for running an instance is that the healer NEVER has to heal me. DPS doesn't matter. I just do the most damage I can while keeping aggro under the tank's. I may not be #1 on the charts...but who cares!! Must be from playing a healer for so long :)
So if the tank is alive - I barely ever take damage.
If the tank dies (for whatever reason), THEN I'll unload AoE (or whatever is necessary depending on the situation) so that the healer won't get spanked. I'd rather die than have the healer die.
The interesting part is that if you go to the mage forum, everyone is just trying to figure out how to out-DPS other classes. Most don't seem concerned about how to control their aggro. Actually, I have yet to see a single post that talks about aggro control. hmmmmmmmm
So if the tank is alive - I barely ever take damage.
If the tank dies (for whatever reason), THEN I'll unload AoE (or whatever is necessary depending on the situation) so that the healer won't get spanked. I'd rather die than have the healer die.
The interesting part is that if you go to the mage forum, everyone is just trying to figure out how to out-DPS other classes. Most don't seem concerned about how to control their aggro. Actually, I have yet to see a single post that talks about aggro control. hmmmmmmmm
mages have an unique ability however when it comes to DPS vs Threat.
they can pull and not endanger the team in any way if they know what they are doing.
i watch my roomate all the time with his Mage. he ends up pulling his mob at about half HP (on purpose), where he then backs up a bit and frost nova's only his mob, tosses more damage, then that dissoriant cone ability and blows all his insta casts to finish it off.
all within a few seconds and taking no damage in the process, if something does fail/resist he falls back on Mana Shield and still cleans it up. the tank usually gets over it after a few fights and the team lets him do his thing.
Edit: He can usually drop his target before the whole rest of the team gets the Focus fire mob down to half Hp.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 3:08pm by RuenBahamut
they can pull and not endanger the team in any way if they know what they are doing.
i watch my roomate all the time with his Mage. he ends up pulling his mob at about half HP (on purpose), where he then backs up a bit and frost nova's only his mob, tosses more damage, then that dissoriant cone ability and blows all his insta casts to finish it off.
all within a few seconds and taking no damage in the process, if something does fail/resist he falls back on Mana Shield and still cleans it up. the tank usually gets over it after a few fights and the team lets him do his thing.
Edit: He can usually drop his target before the whole rest of the team gets the Focus fire mob down to half Hp.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 3:08pm by RuenBahamut
I mark all mobs in my instance and state beforehand what is primary target, secondary target, and what is mark for the CC. If they won't listen to me and go do whatever, I let them die, if there is someone that is listening and doing their job I will DI them so that everyone else dies.
After we wipe I say "listen to me next time and this won't happen," it hasn't failed yet.
After we wipe I say "listen to me next time and this won't happen," it hasn't failed yet.
Actually, it sounds like you're having more "following problems" than "leading problems". And by that, as everyone else has already informed you, is your party members are being belligerent. There's nothing at all wrong with what you're doing. And, unfortunately, nothing you can really do about it other than, in order:
1. Offer advice.
2. Ask that they work with you.
3. Be an ******* and demand they change their ways.
4. Warn them.
5. Let them die.
6. If they haven't learned by this point, cut your losses and leave.
1. Offer advice.
2. Ask that they work with you.
3. Be an ******* and demand they change their ways.
4. Warn them.
5. Let them die.
6. If they haven't learned by this point, cut your losses and leave.
Quote:
Do you mark the targets with like skull and everything? People are a bit more prone to follow those directions because they are just blaring on their screen
you would be suprized on how many dont. i mark the first target with skull and then move it as we go. just for the fact once it's dead they can pretty much hit what they want and dont pull off me so easier to move it as i go than make a order. but peeps love hitting everything but the first skull i wish i could put skulls on all the mobs but 1 so they would attack that 1 mob.
to op i thought that would have ended there in sm or soon after but i'm almost 50 and still have peeps doing that. i have a few i wont group with and what not i've droped groups acouple times cause of it. just have to stick it out i'm still waiting to be rid of the morons.
LOL! I so posted a rant about this in the priest forms (as my alt is a priest). There will be good groups and there will be bad groups. What I learned is to let the dorks be dorks. Let them die, kick them, make fun of them when it all happens as they start complaining about how they are dying and ect you say...
Thanks DrkMateo.
I kinda feel bad for them though... if they don't get it together then when you really NEED a group to act together (60+ instances) then they will be starting all over. Now that I'm running BF and Slave Pens I will drop or kick a bad pug without looking back. The first time I ran SP I was with a not-so-good group. Took almost 2 hrs to run with 2 wipes. The first time I ran a pug in SP that acted as a team with good communication, we ran it in just under an hr. It's worth the time to find a pug that wants to play together.
Quote:
"listen to me next time and this won't happen,"
Thanks DrkMateo.
I kinda feel bad for them though... if they don't get it together then when you really NEED a group to act together (60+ instances) then they will be starting all over. Now that I'm running BF and Slave Pens I will drop or kick a bad pug without looking back. The first time I ran SP I was with a not-so-good group. Took almost 2 hrs to run with 2 wipes. The first time I ran a pug in SP that acted as a team with good communication, we ran it in just under an hr. It's worth the time to find a pug that wants to play together.
tzsjynx wrote:
How do you, as Protection Paladins, convey what you want without sounding like a d!ck? Seriously? In my past experiences, it wasn't like I was boss but my suggestions were usually taken and it generally helped (as were other people's suggestions heard.) Even on my DPS characters I respect the tank's style and requests.
Maybe I should just stop PUGs and stick with friends...
Maybe I should just stop PUGs and stick with friends...
You've gotten some really good advice so far but I'll chime in with my 2 cents.
I had a similar issue with a mage pulling things off me right and left. The first time I just asked them to watch their aggro and their targets - they would target a few with focused fire, pull them off me and then try to tank them, inevitably losing one which would then go after the healer.
After 2 more times with the mage pulling aggro from me I just said, in party:
I have one real taunt and it's got a cooldown. I just want to let you know that I'm not wasting it on you, I'm saving it for the healer when you lose control of your mobs.
And I left it at that, but that's what I did. He died 2 or 3 more times and when he realized that, though a fine frost mage and maybe OK with one mob, pulling multiples without help was going to result in his unmourned death, he behaved.
But I'll also second the notion that life's too short for bad PuGs. Sometimes you're stuck when you need a drop from an instance and sometimes you have to give the group a bit of time to gel but if it's not happening, at some point I've begun to believe that it's OK to just say "Look this isn't really working, I"m sorry guys" and leave party.
Ya I think I might have to start doing that... I'm still having problems. When I see a group I know isn't gonna work I'll just tell em so... and when I see one failing terribly I'll bid my farewells. Fact is, I can grind/quest just fine without em and they're only adding stress to my playing time.
The thing about the whoever doing whatever they want (Mage pulling off a monster for isntance) is that I wasn't even mad at the Mage for taking agro off me, he was level 40 taking on level 36-38s, he was fine. But he SHOULD have been casting AEs on the humungous group I was tanking... This has happened again since.
I'm beginging to think I'm just playing this game with morons. Do they know what AEs are or how they work?
The thing about the whoever doing whatever they want (Mage pulling off a monster for isntance) is that I wasn't even mad at the Mage for taking agro off me, he was level 40 taking on level 36-38s, he was fine. But he SHOULD have been casting AEs on the humungous group I was tanking... This has happened again since.
I'm beginging to think I'm just playing this game with morons. Do they know what AEs are or how they work?
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