Hey guys. Been a really long while I haven't started a thread so be gentle. It's a long read, I know, but I can't help it. You can skip the boring parts. >_>
I'm currently in what I consider to be a casual guild. We recruit pretty much anyone who wants to join, but we're not a zerg guild who tries to invite whoever they come across. If people are unhappy because we don't run them through places they can just /gquit. The guild was started by people who know each other so you could say it's ran by a tight group. They're cool people, though, and I have much fun playing with them.
Before I left WoW for 2 months, the guild had "blown up" into bits who went to 2-3 different guilds. I came back cause I saw they had remade a new guild with all the nice people in it. People had left mostly because we weren't even able to organize decent Kara runs, partly due to people not wanting to respec anything else than DPS and partly due to people who thought they could do Kara in Greens. (Oh the wipes...) I eventually became the only healer so there was a lot of pressure on me and it's mostly why I left, to get away from all that.
Once I came back, people told me they had Kara under control and, indeed, we now have two groups going, each once per week. We have less and less wipes every time and can clear all the way up to Prince/Nightbane.
We've tried ZA and only managed to down Bear, and brought Eagle and Lynx to about 30-40% at best.
And now people are talking about Gruul...
We've tried it once already after I came back, and I think they tried it before I did. The pulls were horrible. The MT was really hard to keep up even with 2-3 healers on him. Or someone else would die and we'd all be F'ed somehow. So we've wiped about 10+ times and on our best attempt we managed to kill all the Council and we were moving on to Maulgar when too many people died. Since it was my first time I just focused on healing and didn't really pay attention to what happened. But some of the wipes just happened because of bad positioning and the Mage tanking one of the Council didn't put Invis soon enough before running in... anyway, it was rather pathetic.
People are not really better geared than they were when we did it. We're still lacking enough people. (Out of the 25, there were 5-7 that were outsiders) To sum it up, I'm not confident at all about this.
Now what I'm asking (Yeah, finally) is this:
Is it a normal situation for any progressing guild, to struggle so much during the first attempts?
Should I just accept it and go there with them, wipe a few more dozen times in hopes that they'll finally get it right? I said they're nice people, but some of them are not particularly skilled.
I'm not in that guild to raid. I'm fine with doing Kara and pushing through ZA for the moment, so I'm not thinking of getting another guild. I'm wondering if I should just try it and see, or hold my end and refuse until they make sure people have the gear/skills to do it?
Any and all input appreciated.
Edited, Nov 28th 2007 11:52pm by Selverein
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Raiding with a casual guildFollow
Selverein wrote:
Now what I'm asking (Yeah, finally) is this:
Is it a normal situation for any progressing guild, to struggle so much during the first attempts?
Is it a normal situation for any progressing guild, to struggle so much during the first attempts?
Some guilds do, some don't. We struggle to get enough people on to go on a weekly basis, but when we do, it doesn't take too long to down bosses, but my old guild was the opposite, we had more than enough people for runs, but unless we took absolutely the 25 best, things didn't get done.
Now, as an aside, if you have a tank capable of tanking the bear boss in ZA, I'm fairly confident they could tank Maulgar in Gruul's. But it doesn't sound like you have quite the number of raiders needed to really make it work.
Selverein wrote:
And now people are talking about Gruul...
Now what I'm asking (Yeah, finally) is this:
Is it a normal situation for any progressing guild, to struggle so much during the first attempts?
Should I just accept it and go there with them, wipe a few more dozen times in hopes that they'll finally get it right? I said they're nice people, but some of them are not particularly skilled.
Edited, Nov 28th 2007 11:52pm by Selverein
Now what I'm asking (Yeah, finally) is this:
Is it a normal situation for any progressing guild, to struggle so much during the first attempts?
Should I just accept it and go there with them, wipe a few more dozen times in hopes that they'll finally get it right? I said they're nice people, but some of them are not particularly skilled.
Edited, Nov 28th 2007 11:52pm by Selverein
Poldaran is spot on about different guilds having different learning curves. It took my guild a few dozen times to really "perfect" the Gruul encounters and a looooooong time to figure out Mag. There were some frustrating evenings and some heavy repair bills, but eventually we figured out both fights and that helped us when moving into SSC and BT. I think most guilds will struggle with new boss fights no matter what. Even if they know "how" it's supposed to go it takes several attempts to put tactics into action. But there's something to be said for that first time you drop the new boss.
Point is that there is a certain amount of painful learning that goes along with any new encounter and sometimes a fight just goes poorly. We've had to call off encounters/raids before because even our veteran raiders just weren't bringing their "A-game" to the fight. It might be frustrating, but fleshing out the raid with more guildies and everyone becoming more familar with the fights should eventually make things a little easier. Maybe your guild just needs some more time to develop it's raiding personality, but like you said, you're not in it to hard-core raid and that's okay. If you like the guild, you can always support their raids by making pots, tailoring gear, enchanting stuff, etc without actually going into the instance. Just some thoughts. Hope you guys do drop Gruul, though. . . .
Raiding is about (or should be about) beating content with your guild. Its not about phat lootz, you just need the phat lootz to progress. If the guild is trying to progress you are gonna wipe and your gonna wipe a lot, but truthfully wiping on new content and then beating that content really brings a guild together. It also weeds out the quitters. If you cant handle a raid night of wiping, you probably arent a raider. Casual or not, that's how it goes.
So stick to it. If you want to help the guild out come prepared and keep a positive and fun attitude through the entire evening. But yeah, you'll wipe on new encounters unless the new encounters are trivial for your gear level (read: BT guilds doing ZA and such).
So stick to it. If you want to help the guild out come prepared and keep a positive and fun attitude through the entire evening. But yeah, you'll wipe on new encounters unless the new encounters are trivial for your gear level (read: BT guilds doing ZA and such).
I guess you guys are right. And I do expect the guild have trouble, especially since they are not really that hardcore. It's just a bit of pressure since we don't have a lot of spare healers and I find myself more in demand than I'd like to sometimes. (Wanna level my Drood ;_;)
I was kinda wondering if it might have more to do with gearing people up or just reviewing their strats. I know some of the people who came that last time were still half in greens or lowish blues, and many lacked any Kara experience at all.
We only have two Kara groups running and there isn't a lot of rotation amongst the people we bring so it's hard to get 25 people with nice gear.
I guess I'm gonna stick to it like you say. It's not like I have anything to do with my gold anymore but to repair my stuff, so why not. Just wish we had more tanks/healers to make sure we're never short on anything.
Thanks for the insights guys. :)
I was kinda wondering if it might have more to do with gearing people up or just reviewing their strats. I know some of the people who came that last time were still half in greens or lowish blues, and many lacked any Kara experience at all.
We only have two Kara groups running and there isn't a lot of rotation amongst the people we bring so it's hard to get 25 people with nice gear.
I guess I'm gonna stick to it like you say. It's not like I have anything to do with my gold anymore but to repair my stuff, so why not. Just wish we had more tanks/healers to make sure we're never short on anything.
Thanks for the insights guys. :)
Our guild is also "casual" though this definition can change i guess. We raid 3 nights a week, dont enforce specs and are generally pretty lenient with things. We take our time but are pretty good and have been running since april of 06, doing ZG, AQ, MC, some BWL, kara, gruul, mag, SSC and TK.
But as our officers say, just because we are casual isnt an excuse to suck. Not sure what you have for numbers, but if you have people going to kara in mostly greens tell them NO if you have the people without em. You do need gear to get anywhere, and everyone that raids needs to put in the effort. People wanting a free ride are baaaaad.
dipping into raiding 101 disregard if its basics for you
DPS is very important. Your DPSers need to be geared and competent. Your tank needs to be geared. Pretty much any tanking gear that drops should be going to the MT whether he has the DKP or not. Whether he loses the roll or not. People should make an effort to bring consumables to new encounters. Yes it costs money. There are lots of dailies to do that are easy and makes good money. If you want to be successful as a guild EVERYONE has to be on top of things. 25 man raids require 25 people who are good, not like the old days where a 40 man raid could be done with 30 good and 10 assdraggers.
But as our officers say, just because we are casual isnt an excuse to suck. Not sure what you have for numbers, but if you have people going to kara in mostly greens tell them NO if you have the people without em. You do need gear to get anywhere, and everyone that raids needs to put in the effort. People wanting a free ride are baaaaad.
dipping into raiding 101 disregard if its basics for you
DPS is very important. Your DPSers need to be geared and competent. Your tank needs to be geared. Pretty much any tanking gear that drops should be going to the MT whether he has the DKP or not. Whether he loses the roll or not. People should make an effort to bring consumables to new encounters. Yes it costs money. There are lots of dailies to do that are easy and makes good money. If you want to be successful as a guild EVERYONE has to be on top of things. 25 man raids require 25 people who are good, not like the old days where a 40 man raid could be done with 30 good and 10 assdraggers.
It all depends on how fast ppl learning and how good in understanding class (most important) and tactics, with these 2 factors every boss will go down in no time.
But some are hopeless, avoid such ppl unable to learn anything, it's like teaching monkey how to ride a bike and if guild shows patience to them it will only **** off good players who understand what's going on wich will result in leaving.
Aim for summary quality of human material, then it's a cake.
But some are hopeless, avoid such ppl unable to learn anything, it's like teaching monkey how to ride a bike and if guild shows patience to them it will only **** off good players who understand what's going on wich will result in leaving.
Aim for summary quality of human material, then it's a cake.
Thanks for additional info, and rate ups for everyone's helpful replies.
I entirely agree with that and wish I had more power in the guild. I try to object myself when someone undergeared tries to hitch a free ride, like you say, in a raid or something equally important. However, many people in the guild seem to be more permissive than me, perhaps because they don't care or don't realize the impact it has. Either way, I do not have much control who comes and who does not, although that may soon change since we're in the process of organizing our Kara group rotations better.
Anyway. Great advice and I'll try to make the most out of it.
Quote:
But as our officers say, just because we are casual isnt an excuse to suck. Not sure what you have for numbers, but if you have people going to kara in mostly greens tell them NO if you have the people without em. You do need gear to get anywhere, and everyone that raids needs to put in the effort. People wanting a free ride are baaaaad.
I entirely agree with that and wish I had more power in the guild. I try to object myself when someone undergeared tries to hitch a free ride, like you say, in a raid or something equally important. However, many people in the guild seem to be more permissive than me, perhaps because they don't care or don't realize the impact it has. Either way, I do not have much control who comes and who does not, although that may soon change since we're in the process of organizing our Kara group rotations better.
Anyway. Great advice and I'll try to make the most out of it.
Quote:
But as our officers say, just because we are casual isnt an excuse to suck.
This is a problem my guild has as well, and more importantly, people not showing up. At one point we had 2 teams clearing Karazhan with a third progressing quite nicely as well getting Maulgar down each week. Eventually we were barely getting enough people on fro Maulgar (having to PuG out a few spots most times) and could only clear Karazhan on one team with the other 2 not even getting to Curator on 2 nights of raiding. More and more alts of people from our main team were needing to be used because people weren't showing up.
Recently we changed our raid schedule in an attempt to spark interest. We cut Karazhan down to one team on 2 nights, started running Zul'Aman, we ran Grull's with another guild a couple times and were finally able to down Grull with their help. We've looked into TK, but only actually went once. Have tried recruiting, but everyone who wants in is a Prot Warrior/Paladin or Hunter (which we are full on all 3). Tonight was scheduled to go back into TK: we had 11 people online at start time (couldn't even do Kara early cause we had 1 tank and 1 healer) ...
A little different situation than the OP, but I feel for where you're coming from. This is getting INCREDIBLY frustrating for me as I generally have to wake up early for my guild's raids since I work nights, so when nothing happens, I lose out on sleep for what? We have the quality of raiders to get content down, we just dont' have the quantity of people willing to show up.
Been with my guild for a long time now (since my main was level 6), and I'd hate to leave, but I think it's past time I find myself a new guild to raid with :(
EDIT: Sorry if I hijacked the post, but it seemed to fit at the time =/ And I had to get that out ...
Edited, Nov 30th 2007 6:38pm by Maulgak
God I am up at 6am on a Sat morning and here I am finding myself typing out whole pages of responses and then deleting them because I can't find a proper way to articulate what I have to say, how cool am I? Here is my final attempt at it, and I will try too keep it succinct, and by succinct I mean less than 20 pages.
Cut the suck.
Do everything in your power to keep it casual while cutting out the suck. That is the only way a casual guild with an eye on raid progression will survive. Shifting attendance, off specs, those can be dealt with and a guild can still progress. Deadweight will kill a guild cause simply put there is no room for it in BC raiding, none at all and as you progress there is less and less room.
If you are bringing a Fury Warrior who has tanking gems in his DPS set, and who is undergeared you are not going to down Gruul, you are going to wipe week after week after week, the guild will lose momentum, people will become dissatisfied, those with a stronger raid ethic who are vital to your raid will leave for more advanced raiding guilds. The core of your raid gone, with only mouthbreathers in mismatched gear left your guild will quickly dissolve and you will have to start from scratch.
Which is where STRONG friendly leadership comes into play as being one of the most pivotal roles in making a casual guild succeed. You need to be able to sit down and talk to a guy, make it clear what is needed to raid. If the guy can meet it great, if not and he is obviously a weak link you need to weed him out.
I know the concept of elitism, goals and expectations tends to clash with the normal egalitarian aspects of casual raiding but in the end it is necessary and if you do it in a supportive, friendly way it actually builds the bonds rather than creates resentment. It is the difference between telling a guy "Hey man, great job tonight. You know if you put some +hit/+ap/+crit gems in that armor and cleaned up your talent build a lil bit you could get 10% or more extra dps out of your toon, which would be kick ***" versus "ZOMG you have def gems in your dps set, joo suxxor". No need to make a ret pally roll holy, no need to throw hate at Boomkins, off specs work but you do need people to be aware of where they are going with their talent build and what they need gear wise to be raiding successfully.
You can accept off specs, you can have casual attendance, you can be casual but you can't have people with mixed gear and assbackward specs, you can't have people who die to the same aoe repeatedly even after 10+ attempts. You have to be able to deal with these things in a positive way in order to stop it and change it or else you will continue to wipe. Strong leadership needs to be there to friendly and politely deal with these issues to help progression. Sometimes you can be the nicest guy as well and the other person still might react badly, thats when you need to realize that maybe they aren't meant to be raiding.
/rant
Cut the suck.
Do everything in your power to keep it casual while cutting out the suck. That is the only way a casual guild with an eye on raid progression will survive. Shifting attendance, off specs, those can be dealt with and a guild can still progress. Deadweight will kill a guild cause simply put there is no room for it in BC raiding, none at all and as you progress there is less and less room.
If you are bringing a Fury Warrior who has tanking gems in his DPS set, and who is undergeared you are not going to down Gruul, you are going to wipe week after week after week, the guild will lose momentum, people will become dissatisfied, those with a stronger raid ethic who are vital to your raid will leave for more advanced raiding guilds. The core of your raid gone, with only mouthbreathers in mismatched gear left your guild will quickly dissolve and you will have to start from scratch.
Which is where STRONG friendly leadership comes into play as being one of the most pivotal roles in making a casual guild succeed. You need to be able to sit down and talk to a guy, make it clear what is needed to raid. If the guy can meet it great, if not and he is obviously a weak link you need to weed him out.
I know the concept of elitism, goals and expectations tends to clash with the normal egalitarian aspects of casual raiding but in the end it is necessary and if you do it in a supportive, friendly way it actually builds the bonds rather than creates resentment. It is the difference between telling a guy "Hey man, great job tonight. You know if you put some +hit/+ap/+crit gems in that armor and cleaned up your talent build a lil bit you could get 10% or more extra dps out of your toon, which would be kick ***" versus "ZOMG you have def gems in your dps set, joo suxxor". No need to make a ret pally roll holy, no need to throw hate at Boomkins, off specs work but you do need people to be aware of where they are going with their talent build and what they need gear wise to be raiding successfully.
You can accept off specs, you can have casual attendance, you can be casual but you can't have people with mixed gear and assbackward specs, you can't have people who die to the same aoe repeatedly even after 10+ attempts. You have to be able to deal with these things in a positive way in order to stop it and change it or else you will continue to wipe. Strong leadership needs to be there to friendly and politely deal with these issues to help progression. Sometimes you can be the nicest guy as well and the other person still might react badly, thats when you need to realize that maybe they aren't meant to be raiding.
/rant
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
Quote:
you are going to wipe week after week after week, the guild will lose momentum, people will become dissatisfied, those with a stronger raid ethic who are vital to your raid will leave for more advanced raiding guilds. The core of your raid gone, with only mouthbreathers in mismatched gear left your guild will quickly dissolve and you will have to start from scratch.
I was in a casual raid guild. We had a core of 10-15 very solid players. They knew their encounters, came ready to raids, always put out the best they could. Casual but solid raiders.
Then we had mouthbreathers. Guys who were in it for epics and couldn't raid for the life of them. The guy that is doing stupid stuff and getting killed every pull. The guy who is below the tank on DPS, the guy who ninja afk's every 20 minutes, the guy with an off spec and mismatched gems playing a Ret/Prot pally hybrid. You know the type. We had just enough mouthbreathers that made getting past Mag impossible.
We stalled, lost momentum. Core casual raiders get resentful, they are smart, they can see that if we had a decent player and not a mouthbreather filling the spot that mag would be a joke, we were overgeared for him afterall. Leadership did nothing and eventually the core raiders start to bleed off, joining guilds that are actually progressing. New members have to be found and geared and are seldom as good as the people they are replacing, soon even Gruul was uncertain, and eventually more people leave and things fall apart.
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
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