A couple of weeks ago I started tanking heroics, and as they are exclusively guild runs they generally go pretty well (hooray!). But because most dps/healers can be 2-3 shot in heroics, I'm extremely paranoid when it comes to loose mobs (which on the surface, should be a good thing... right?)
The problem is that I'm forced to second-guess the hunter when something goes slightly wrong. If a trap breaks, or we get unexpected adds ect, I don't know whether his traps are on cooldown, whether the mob flying past my ear has been pulled away on purpose, or is intent on mischief.
So often I end up charging down traps, to bring the 'loose mob' back into the fold. It isn't usually too critical, because I proceed to tank the thing, but I'm sure it annoys the hunter no end, makes me feel guilty, and puts additional pressure on the healer.
Does anyone else have this problem, or have any suggestions as to how I can better discern on-the-fly cc attempts from loose mobs.
Much appreciated
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Ventrilo is your friend in this case. It also makes runs a lot more fun and social.
Having said that, the hunter has feign death, scattershot (if marksman) and mail armor. In which case he should be able to take care of himself (more or less). In your situation, unless really necessary, I would just make sure the clothies are ok. It is also possible to taunt the mob then turn away without hitting it, so that if it is trapped, it doesn't break the trap.
I use this regularly while tanking. Always taunting the shackle, sheep, trap before you break it means that if you miss with your first hit, you still have the mob on you for a bit to get it with the next hit - and if the DPS pull agro too early, your taunt isn't up and it is their own fault if they die :)
Having said that, the hunter has feign death, scattershot (if marksman) and mail armor. In which case he should be able to take care of himself (more or less). In your situation, unless really necessary, I would just make sure the clothies are ok. It is also possible to taunt the mob then turn away without hitting it, so that if it is trapped, it doesn't break the trap.
I use this regularly while tanking. Always taunting the shackle, sheep, trap before you break it means that if you miss with your first hit, you still have the mob on you for a bit to get it with the next hit - and if the DPS pull agro too early, your taunt isn't up and it is their own fault if they die :)
If its a capable hunter, they should be fine. Beast Masters can move aggro to their pet with no problem. Marksman will scatter to buy some time. Survivals have readiness so can pop another trap or feign if something goes wrong. And after all that, wing clip --> misdirection --> safe hunter :D
In a heroic, every class has their own o ******** and if they dont know how to use them, then they dont belong in a heroic run.
If their back-ups dont work, it's nice to be on the headset (like Beast said), or else the healer will probably have a temporary back-up till you can notice what's goin on. Then it's giggles and back on track.
In a heroic, every class has their own o ******** and if they dont know how to use them, then they dont belong in a heroic run.
If their back-ups dont work, it's nice to be on the headset (like Beast said), or else the healer will probably have a temporary back-up till you can notice what's goin on. Then it's giggles and back on track.
Scholar
36 posts
In an older mmorpg i used to play we always had hotbuttons for that stuff, macros that gave a simple msg like "offtanking (target) or cc-ing target dont break it right" etc before putting the spell/thingy on it.
works like a charm and lets everybody know what you're doing, same for tanks to show their targets or pullers to show which mob is targeted on incoming and so on.
works like a charm and lets everybody know what you're doing, same for tanks to show their targets or pullers to show which mob is targeted on incoming and so on.
Since you state that you almost only run with guildies you will get the hang of things pretty quickly. When i run with guildies i know what to expect from them, and what they do. I always build agro on loose mobs anyway, but i don't charge unless i know something is off.
Using Xperl and simple raid icons I have no problems telling who is targeting what, I dont worry about hunters or mages since they both have ways to drop the loose mob should something bad happen. That being said, anyone know how to macro the raid icons, I find it really tedious and slow to have to select them individually.
I personally don't use one, but there are mods out there that allow you to target a mob and hit a hot-key to mark it with a certain icon. I think there may also be ones you can use to target a mob with a certain icon.
15 posts
In heroics I try to tank facing the group so I can see if these things are happening and can then decide if I should charge taunt a loose mob or if the group has it under control.
Scholar
38 posts
You can assign raid icons to any key in Options - Key Bindings. It's near the bottom of the page.
I use the punctuation keys since they are out of the way enough of my left hand controls but still accessible should symbols need switchin up on the fly.
-B
I use the punctuation keys since they are out of the way enough of my left hand controls but still accessible should symbols need switchin up on the fly.
-B
I have the same problem, and hunters I've talked to agree that the nature of the CC makes it difficult for the tank to know when he needs to swoop in on the mob.
Marks are useful as is communication, other than that best I can recommend is to err on the side of jumping early rather than jumping late if something does look odd. After a while running with the guys you'll get a better feel for what's going on with them, but caution is always a good place to start.
Marks are useful as is communication, other than that best I can recommend is to err on the side of jumping early rather than jumping late if something does look odd. After a while running with the guys you'll get a better feel for what's going on with them, but caution is always a good place to start.
This issue is the only reason I'm nervous about my entree into Heroics and Kara. More often than I wanna admit I hit a loose mob as it gets sheeped or slept or frozen or whatever. I dedicate myself to tanking the hell out of it to minimize the damage I've done, which distracts me from my primary tanktarget, and means they can't re-cc it.
My limited experience with other classes means I don't have a deep understanding of each class's CC (duration, cooldowns, casting times, just for starters...) nor of each class's ability to deal with a mob they don't want on them. (threatdrop capabilities, mostly, I know what kinda armor everybody can wear...)
I realized while whining just now that I should sack up and do some research. So I checked out http://www.wowwiki.com/Crowd_control. It's certainly a little helpful, but does anybody know of a good guide to "Understanding Crowd Control From a Tank's Perspective?"
Edit: Removed full stop from link.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 8:53pm by JeeBar
My limited experience with other classes means I don't have a deep understanding of each class's CC (duration, cooldowns, casting times, just for starters...) nor of each class's ability to deal with a mob they don't want on them. (threatdrop capabilities, mostly, I know what kinda armor everybody can wear...)
I realized while whining just now that I should sack up and do some research. So I checked out http://www.wowwiki.com/Crowd_control. It's certainly a little helpful, but does anybody know of a good guide to "Understanding Crowd Control From a Tank's Perspective?"
Edit: Removed full stop from link.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 8:53pm by JeeBar
First of all, there is a full stop at the end of the link you posted so it doesn't work (if you click on it you can just remove the full-stop and it works ok).
One important thing for a tank to know is what order to break the CC when the current mob is down. The following is roughly in order :-
** Mind Control - Unless cast by a Shadow Priest, need to kill this one quick as it will go straight for your healer when it breaks (and stops your priest healing while he is MC'ing)
** Scare Beast, Wyvern Sting, Turn Undead, Psychic Scream, Intimidating Shout - All these have a cooldown, so will need to be dealt with fairly quickly.
** Sap - Cannot be re-applied so needs to be one of the 1st (lasts longer than some of the above though)
** Seduce - A bit erratic. Succubus can get smashed by mobs and you lose control
** Warlock fear - Can be done indefinitely, but risks running into other mobs, so pick it up fairly quickly
** Banish - Have to wait for the banish to end before recasting
** Hunter Trap - Traps have a cooldown, so a resist can casue trouble for a hunter. Pick the mob up as soon as practical.
** Entangling Roots & Hibernate - Can be recast, but stop a feral druid DPSing
** Shackle - Can be left till almost last. It can be recast but is an extra distraction for your healer (unless it is a Shadow Priest)
** Sheep - Leave till last as the mage can easily re-cast anytime.
** Enslave Demon - Can be left until the end of the fight usually
As far as escape methods -
** Druid - Bear form :)
** Hunter - Concussive Shot (slows target - 4 secs), Wing Clip (slows target - 10 secs), Scattershot (MM Talent - bascially a 4 sec stun), Feign Death (drops agro - may go to priest though)
** Mage - Ice Block (Makes mage immune to damage and drops agro for the duration - 10sec), Frost Nova (roots mob for 8 secs), Various frost spells (slow the target)
** Paladin - Hammer of Justice (6 second stun), Bubble (protects the paladin for 12 seconds)
** Priest - Psychic Scream (fears nearby mobs for 8 secs), Fade (reduces the priests agro for 10 secs)
** Rogue - Vanish (allows the rogue to stealth - drops agro), Blind (basically stuns the mob for 10 secs), Evasion (increases rogues dodge by 50%)
** Shaman - Frostshock (Slows mob for 8 secs), Earthbind Totem (Slows mobs within 10 yards)
** Warlock - Howl of Terror (fears nearby mobs for 8 secs), Death Coil (Fears a mob for a short time)
** Warrior - Intimidating Shout (fears nearby mobs for 8 secs), Hamstring (slows mob for 15 secs), Piercing Howl (slows mobs for 6 secs), Defensive Stance
So pretty much every class has some sort of escape ability that buys them time, allows them to kite or move out of range of a mob or drop agro. It is just a matter of experiencing them all in action and knowing how to react and how long you have to react. For instance, a priest fearing is probably an emergency (you have 8 secs before the mob will be on the priest again). On the other hand, the hunter can kite, stun etc. usually long enough for his trap cooldown to be up and retrap the mob.
Most of the time I leave the hunter to look after himself (perhaps a quick taunt then back to my target to buy them some more time).
I am currently leveling an alt of each class to get more of an idea of the various abilities, strengths and weaknesses. If there is a class you don't know much about, then go for it and roll one - it is the best way to learn :)
One important thing for a tank to know is what order to break the CC when the current mob is down. The following is roughly in order :-
** Mind Control - Unless cast by a Shadow Priest, need to kill this one quick as it will go straight for your healer when it breaks (and stops your priest healing while he is MC'ing)
** Scare Beast, Wyvern Sting, Turn Undead, Psychic Scream, Intimidating Shout - All these have a cooldown, so will need to be dealt with fairly quickly.
** Sap - Cannot be re-applied so needs to be one of the 1st (lasts longer than some of the above though)
** Seduce - A bit erratic. Succubus can get smashed by mobs and you lose control
** Warlock fear - Can be done indefinitely, but risks running into other mobs, so pick it up fairly quickly
** Banish - Have to wait for the banish to end before recasting
** Hunter Trap - Traps have a cooldown, so a resist can casue trouble for a hunter. Pick the mob up as soon as practical.
** Entangling Roots & Hibernate - Can be recast, but stop a feral druid DPSing
** Shackle - Can be left till almost last. It can be recast but is an extra distraction for your healer (unless it is a Shadow Priest)
** Sheep - Leave till last as the mage can easily re-cast anytime.
** Enslave Demon - Can be left until the end of the fight usually
As far as escape methods -
** Druid - Bear form :)
** Hunter - Concussive Shot (slows target - 4 secs), Wing Clip (slows target - 10 secs), Scattershot (MM Talent - bascially a 4 sec stun), Feign Death (drops agro - may go to priest though)
** Mage - Ice Block (Makes mage immune to damage and drops agro for the duration - 10sec), Frost Nova (roots mob for 8 secs), Various frost spells (slow the target)
** Paladin - Hammer of Justice (6 second stun), Bubble (protects the paladin for 12 seconds)
** Priest - Psychic Scream (fears nearby mobs for 8 secs), Fade (reduces the priests agro for 10 secs)
** Rogue - Vanish (allows the rogue to stealth - drops agro), Blind (basically stuns the mob for 10 secs), Evasion (increases rogues dodge by 50%)
** Shaman - Frostshock (Slows mob for 8 secs), Earthbind Totem (Slows mobs within 10 yards)
** Warlock - Howl of Terror (fears nearby mobs for 8 secs), Death Coil (Fears a mob for a short time)
** Warrior - Intimidating Shout (fears nearby mobs for 8 secs), Hamstring (slows mob for 15 secs), Piercing Howl (slows mobs for 6 secs), Defensive Stance
So pretty much every class has some sort of escape ability that buys them time, allows them to kite or move out of range of a mob or drop agro. It is just a matter of experiencing them all in action and knowing how to react and how long you have to react. For instance, a priest fearing is probably an emergency (you have 8 secs before the mob will be on the priest again). On the other hand, the hunter can kite, stun etc. usually long enough for his trap cooldown to be up and retrap the mob.
Most of the time I leave the hunter to look after himself (perhaps a quick taunt then back to my target to buy them some more time).
I am currently leveling an alt of each class to get more of an idea of the various abilities, strengths and weaknesses. If there is a class you don't know much about, then go for it and roll one - it is the best way to learn :)
When tanking I usually spend most of my time watching the mobs that I'm not tanking. Not what you'd expect, but if I'm only tanking one mob, I really don't need to watch it because I know exactly what it is doing. If someone pulls aggro, I'll know it because it's target will change and I can just taunt it back. (Always have show target of target on)
This gives me the freedom to pan the camera aound as I tank so I can watch the CCs and make sure that they are being handled properly. With hunters in particular, you watch to see if they get broken by damage as that will cause issue with their trap cycle and could mean that the mob will be loose while the trap is on cooldown. Also look for a second trap after the pull has started, you will know that the hunter has their mob under control if they have a second trap ready for when the first one breaks.
Also remember that feral charge does not break CC. If you see a mob running loose, don't be afraid to charge it but remeber to turn around so you don't auto attack it. If it got CC'd, no harm done. If not, then at least it's rooted for 4 seconds and buys the group some time to CC it or gives you some time to make a judgment call on whether your going to tank it or not.
This gives me the freedom to pan the camera aound as I tank so I can watch the CCs and make sure that they are being handled properly. With hunters in particular, you watch to see if they get broken by damage as that will cause issue with their trap cycle and could mean that the mob will be loose while the trap is on cooldown. Also look for a second trap after the pull has started, you will know that the hunter has their mob under control if they have a second trap ready for when the first one breaks.
Also remember that feral charge does not break CC. If you see a mob running loose, don't be afraid to charge it but remeber to turn around so you don't auto attack it. If it got CC'd, no harm done. If not, then at least it's rooted for 4 seconds and buys the group some time to CC it or gives you some time to make a judgment call on whether your going to tank it or not.
RareBeast wrote:
One important thing for a tank to know is what order to break the CC when the current mob is down. The following is roughly in order:
<awesome info and tips>
<awesome info and tips>
(So you know, I'm on a campaign to personally rate up every one of your posts until your name turns green...I feel guilty every time I see mine in green and yours in blue, that just ain't right.)
RareBeast wrote:
I am currently leveling an alt of each class to get more of an idea of the various abilities, strengths and weaknesses. If there is a class you don't know much about, then go for it and roll one - it is the best way to learn :)
SirJac wrote:
Also remember that feral charge does not break CC. If you see a mob running loose, don't be afraid to charge it but remeber to turn around so you don't auto attack it.
Edited, Nov 29th 2007 10:31pm by JeeBar
Quote:
If its a capable hunter, they should be fine. Beast Masters can move aggro to their pet with no problem. Marksman will scatter to buy some time. Survivals have readiness so can pop another trap or feign if something goes wrong. And after all that, wing clip --> misdirection --> safe hunter :D
I'm speaking as a hunter, and you're assuming quite a bit...(note that this is the community in general, your post just stood out)
1. Hunters CAN put aggro on their pet fairly quick, but pets do not have the druid growl or the warrior taunt. Pet's can only generate threat so fast. Generally the hunter will have to kite a bit before the pet draws aggro, and if the healer out-TPSes the pet (since the healer may already have a lot more threat built up than the pet) it may go for the healer before the pet can grab it. And if MD is on CD, you lose that huge threat boost to the tank/pet.
2. Just because a hunter is survival doesn't mean a hunter has readiness. Master tactician is the weakest DD talent hunters have that does anything to increase damage potential (meaning unless the talent adds 0 damage potential, MT does less damage increase) and is commonly left out of builds. Readiness requires MT, and therefore you end up wasting a few talent points to get readiness. Since readiness doesn't really offer too much utility, and offers poor DPS increase, (and since SV sucks in itself for solo power) it is left out of most builds. The two survival builds that are common are actually 0/21/40 (which picks up scatter shot, so there's another - not only MM hunters get SS) and is great for crowd control, and then 5/20/36 which maximizes raid DPS. Neither of these builds include readiness.
3. You assume that mail armor means lots of survivability. While yes mail > leather > cloth...you have to factor in a good tank should have a lot more defensive stats than a good hunter...
-The AC afforded by plate AND a shield greatly outweigh that of mail armor
-The ability to block, plus any defensive stats which would be useless to a hunter in raid situations (dodge, defense, resilience, parry, etc).
-A hunter only needs so much health, while a tank needs as much as possible. So healers will have less of a margin of error.
-Also consider if a hunter is tanking, his DPS drops significantly.
To the OP, here's what I say:
Get a mic, and be sure the hunter has one. Have him tell you what he can do when a trap breaks or adds show up (and dont ask, he should do it automatically, i.e. "I'll retrap" "Traps on CD, pick it up") and go from there. If you can tank the mob that was from a broken trap and the original mob AND the healer can keep you alive through it, then go ahead and break the trap. But it's better to have the enhanced communication.
BTW you dont need vent now that there's in-game voice.
Quote:
but pets do not have the druid growl or the warrior taunt.
Maybe it depends on the type of pet, but when tanking I've had to deal with Hunters who forgot to turn their pet's auto-taunt off and it would **** me off greatly, especially when they were blaming me for letting their pet die after it taunted something off of me.
Another good way to control a mob, when you are not sure if it's being CC'd or not is to taunt it, bash it, fearie fire it and then return to you main tank target. That way you won't actually hit it with anything that might break an incomming sheep or shackle, but still build a good amount of threat to have it stick for a while. Also use demo roar while tanking. It gives a bit of aoe agro without breaking CC.
Yep, my 70 hunter is survival specc'd but has the 0/21/40 build. It is the nicest build for trapping in 5 mans (not as hot for DPS though) as your traps aren't resisted as often and have a last longer etc.
Also, survival hunters value Agi over all other stats so it is not uncommon for a good survival hunter to be wearing some rogue leather if it has exceptionally high Agi on it. So you can't always count on the hunter not being as squishy because they have mail.
Also, survival hunters value Agi over all other stats so it is not uncommon for a good survival hunter to be wearing some rogue leather if it has exceptionally high Agi on it. So you can't always count on the hunter not being as squishy because they have mail.
Selverein wrote:
Quote:
but pets do not have the druid growl or the warrior taunt.
Maybe it depends on the type of pet, but when tanking I've had to deal with Hunters who forgot to turn their pet's auto-taunt off and it would **** me off greatly, especially when they were blaming me for letting their pet die after it taunted something off of me.
A hunter's pet auto-taunt isn't the same thing as a true taunt. A real taunt forces the mob to hit whoever taunted it regardless of actual threat for the duration of the taunt. A pet's auto-taunt adds X amount of threat every time they use it and functions more like lacerate or sunder, except with a cooldown.
Ah! Thanks for the precision. I never played Hunter and never actually asked one to explain the pet taunting mechanics to me.
Really good to know. :)
Really good to know. :)
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