hey so i have a hunter in his 60's that is specced the cookie-cutter 41/20 BM spec. i currently have the valanos longbow in my bags but recently a veteran player (he doesnt play a hunter) told me not to use that but instead to use honor points to buy the S1 gladiator's heavy crossbow. my question is, would the 3.1 crossbow be too slow for the standard bm rotation [steady, auto, kill command macro] that bm hunters use for pve raiding? should i just stick to the valanos due to the speed despite the major loss of dps?
oh and btw i'm aware of the other weapons like sunfury and don santos but i would like to know which one to use immediately once i turn 70 since i have to run kara for the sunfury and i have to buy my flying mount b4 using money on something like don santos.
Edited, Nov 26th 2007 4:37pm by kslay
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gladiator's heavy crossbow too slow for bm hunters?Follow
Put up the links for the two weapons so people can see them and compare them for you.
9 posts
valanos
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=31303
gladiator heavy cross bow
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28294
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=31303
gladiator heavy cross bow
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28294
Use the crossbow. As a BM hunter you will be able to improve that 3.1 attack speed easy. The DPS alone should tell you to switch. Thats more damage per shot, and with your Improved attack speed. dude you will be flinging arrows left and right.
you will have some time between SS and Auto, but that just means you can play when the internet is slow. I would try to run the numbers but 1) i would mess them up. 2) i'm in class atm.
Assuming quiver bonus of 15% and BM bonus of 20%, that's 38% faster attack speed (it's multiplactive, not additive). Let's assume 1700 AP (benchmark in Aethien's guide), 20% crit chance (and crits do 230% damage, so 20% is 26% increase in DPS), and 32 DPS arrows (highest vendor arrows with no rep req). And for the sake of arguement, equal all other stats (except weapon damage and speed - what we're focusing on).
So you get 121.43 DPS from AP, 32 DPS from arrows, and then the speed bonus is factored in.
Weapon 1: 130-242 damage, 66.4 DPS, 2.8 attack speed.
Weapon 2: 204-307 damage, 82.4 DPS, 3.1 attack speed.
Adding 153.4 DPS to a 2.8 attack speed weapon would result in 429.52 damage increase, or 556-672 damage. The 38% increased speed is 2.03 attack speed.
Adding 153.4 DPS to a 3.1 attack speed weapon would result in 475.54 damage increase, or 680-783 damage. The 38% increased speed is 2.25 attack speed.
Steady shot would do weapon damage + 340, and have a cast time of 1.09 seconds.
Weapon 1 shot rotation (assuming steady + auto)
Auto-shot fires at 0.0
Steady shot starts at 0.0 (assuming spamming a macro)
Steady shot fires at 1.09
Next auto-shot starts at 1.53
Auto-shot fires at 2.03
Note that there is 0.44 seconds of dead time in here. Also, the damage from 1 auto shot and one steady shot would average to (614+526)*1.26 = 1436.4 damage before armor. That's 707.59 DPS.
Also, if you fire off a multi shot you will definitely delay the auto-shot cast by at least 0.06 seconds, and if you fire an arcane shot you will delay the start of the next steady shot by 0.56 seconds (which wont hurt the DPS except to add 0.08 seconds to the shot rotation). So basically, firing anything but auto and steady will gimp your shot rotation, but overall could increase DPS slightly (not gonna do the math).
Weapon 2 shot rotation:
Auto-shot fires at 0.0
Steady shot starts at 0.0
Steady shot fires at 1.09
Next auto-shot starts at 1.75
Next auto-shot fires at 2.25
There is 0.66 seconds of down time here. Enough to allow an MM/SV shot rotation to come in without gimping DPS. 1 pair of shots would do an average of (731.5+595.5)*1.26 = 1672 damage, or 743.1 DPS. Compared to 707.59 DPS above (keep in mind the additional 16 DPS probably paid a part in this).
I'm too lazy to go back and do the math assuming same weapon DPS, etc. However, from what I can gather the slower weapon is actually BETTER due to higher steady shot damage (596 vs 526) and the fact you can weave in a heavier shot rotation.
A 2.9 attack speed would be the minimum that would not gimp a shot rotation (assuming you alternate between shots that include an extra shot...i.e. auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady...). However, you would have to be within 0.01-0.02 seconds of error.
We also didn't factor in rapid fire, but I'm guessing the slower weapon would allow the steady shot to clip less auto-shots (and no chance of throwing in another shot).
One last thing to note, imp arcane shot would not help the build, since the shot cycles take about 2.1-2.3 seconds, you would have something in the 4+ and something in the 6+ range (nothing in the 5+ range which is where imp arcane shot would help).
So you get 121.43 DPS from AP, 32 DPS from arrows, and then the speed bonus is factored in.
Weapon 1: 130-242 damage, 66.4 DPS, 2.8 attack speed.
Weapon 2: 204-307 damage, 82.4 DPS, 3.1 attack speed.
Adding 153.4 DPS to a 2.8 attack speed weapon would result in 429.52 damage increase, or 556-672 damage. The 38% increased speed is 2.03 attack speed.
Adding 153.4 DPS to a 3.1 attack speed weapon would result in 475.54 damage increase, or 680-783 damage. The 38% increased speed is 2.25 attack speed.
Steady shot would do weapon damage + 340, and have a cast time of 1.09 seconds.
Weapon 1 shot rotation (assuming steady + auto)
Auto-shot fires at 0.0
Steady shot starts at 0.0 (assuming spamming a macro)
Steady shot fires at 1.09
Next auto-shot starts at 1.53
Auto-shot fires at 2.03
Note that there is 0.44 seconds of dead time in here. Also, the damage from 1 auto shot and one steady shot would average to (614+526)*1.26 = 1436.4 damage before armor. That's 707.59 DPS.
Also, if you fire off a multi shot you will definitely delay the auto-shot cast by at least 0.06 seconds, and if you fire an arcane shot you will delay the start of the next steady shot by 0.56 seconds (which wont hurt the DPS except to add 0.08 seconds to the shot rotation). So basically, firing anything but auto and steady will gimp your shot rotation, but overall could increase DPS slightly (not gonna do the math).
Weapon 2 shot rotation:
Auto-shot fires at 0.0
Steady shot starts at 0.0
Steady shot fires at 1.09
Next auto-shot starts at 1.75
Next auto-shot fires at 2.25
There is 0.66 seconds of down time here. Enough to allow an MM/SV shot rotation to come in without gimping DPS. 1 pair of shots would do an average of (731.5+595.5)*1.26 = 1672 damage, or 743.1 DPS. Compared to 707.59 DPS above (keep in mind the additional 16 DPS probably paid a part in this).
I'm too lazy to go back and do the math assuming same weapon DPS, etc. However, from what I can gather the slower weapon is actually BETTER due to higher steady shot damage (596 vs 526) and the fact you can weave in a heavier shot rotation.
A 2.9 attack speed would be the minimum that would not gimp a shot rotation (assuming you alternate between shots that include an extra shot...i.e. auto-steady-arcane-auto-steady-auto-steady-multi-auto-steady...). However, you would have to be within 0.01-0.02 seconds of error.
We also didn't factor in rapid fire, but I'm guessing the slower weapon would allow the steady shot to clip less auto-shots (and no chance of throwing in another shot).
One last thing to note, imp arcane shot would not help the build, since the shot cycles take about 2.1-2.3 seconds, you would have something in the 4+ and something in the 6+ range (nothing in the 5+ range which is where imp arcane shot would help).
Wow Scribs. You really Pummeled that nail in!
I just would have said... look at the DPS on each weapon. Look at the stats they offer. The fact that the crossbow adds more in each (as minimal as 4 RAP and 2 to crit may be) almost 20 DPS difference is big enough to say that that crossbow is better than the bow.
I just would have said... look at the DPS on each weapon. Look at the stats they offer. The fact that the crossbow adds more in each (as minimal as 4 RAP and 2 to crit may be) almost 20 DPS difference is big enough to say that that crossbow is better than the bow.
Wow skribs, you rule at that!
shame I can only rate you up once!
shame I can only rate you up once!
The goal wasn't to say it's got more DPS, the goal was to say if the fact it was slower and there would be the extra time doing "nothing" in a steady-auto rotation (the extra 0.22 seconds in between the steady firing and the auto firing). In all actuality, it doesn't hurt, and helps due to allowing you to fire in a heavier shot rotation.
I know. Im just really bad at math =P
I wasn't saying that wasn't needed I was just saying that you put down the facts on paper solid =P
Edited, Nov 27th 2007 11:07am by HitashLevat
I wasn't saying that wasn't needed I was just saying that you put down the facts on paper solid =P
Edited, Nov 27th 2007 11:07am by HitashLevat
9 posts
oh wow thanks for the awesome reply skribs!!
i'm pretty sure i'm going to use crossbow now since it's also good for battlegrounds and arena and i'll be doing that along with pve. my guild always has kara on farm so i'm sure i can get either the wolfslayer or sunfury within a month or two after dinging 70.
thanks again for the replies.
i'm pretty sure i'm going to use crossbow now since it's also good for battlegrounds and arena and i'll be doing that along with pve. my guild always has kara on farm so i'm sure i can get either the wolfslayer or sunfury within a month or two after dinging 70.
thanks again for the replies.
Sorry to complicate an otherwise resolved thread, but I wonder if anyone could apply such logic to a comparison between:
Steelhawk Crossbow
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28504
and
Sunfury Bow
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28772
also for a Beastmastery hunter.
I've been after the Sunfury for so long but I'm wondering if it would actually be better for raids. It's not too slow so I thought it might still do the trick.
Edited, Dec 12th 2007 7:55am by fiercestcalm
Steelhawk Crossbow
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28504
and
Sunfury Bow
http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=28772
also for a Beastmastery hunter.
I've been after the Sunfury for so long but I'm wondering if it would actually be better for raids. It's not too slow so I thought it might still do the trick.
Edited, Dec 12th 2007 7:55am by fiercestcalm
Don't worry, Sunfury is still an upgrade to Steelhawk. Wolfslayer trumps them both though, by quite a wide margin.
Edit to point out that if you have Dragonspine Trophy from Gruul Sunfury is equal to Wolfslayer in dps.
Edited, Dec 12th 2007 6:12pm by shenlongxz
Edit to point out that if you have Dragonspine Trophy from Gruul Sunfury is equal to Wolfslayer in dps.
Edited, Dec 12th 2007 6:12pm by shenlongxz
shenlongxz wrote:
Don't worry, Sunfury is still an upgrade to Steelhawk. Wolfslayer trumps them both though, by quite a wide margin. by nowhere near enough for it to matter to anyone but elitist little sods.
Well put it this way: without a *lot* of haste rating, Wolfslayer is the best dps weapon for BM hunters in the game unless your latency and fps allow you to use Barrel-Blade Longrifle. In my gear, and unbuffed, its something like a 10dps difference, and this widens as your gear improves.
Didn't you post that you recently kicked two healers from your guild for not pulling their weight? As a hunter trying to maximise your dps is a good thing, not solely the pursuit of "elitist little sods".
Didn't you post that you recently kicked two healers from your guild for not pulling their weight? As a hunter trying to maximise your dps is a good thing, not solely the pursuit of "elitist little sods".
was even more when i checked it for my self, something like 17dps more, how often do you geat an armour pieace thats even close to that big of an upgrade?
that said there are some gear that would even the numbers out so might ofc be worth checking it on yourself first. then ofc it might be worth losing a dps or 2 just to not having to listen to the gun sound.
that said there are some gear that would even the numbers out so might ofc be worth checking it on yourself first. then ofc it might be worth losing a dps or 2 just to not having to listen to the gun sound.
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