Everyone - and by this I mean a good portion of my guild, players of both warriors and rogues alike - tells me that by all rights a warrior and rogue of equivalent level, in straight PVP and not dueling, the warrior will destroy the rogue every time. Of course I expect there to be occasional exceptions, who wouldn't? But I wanted to see if there is any truth to it so I tracked my kills this weekend.
As a level 39 - 42 rogue, I killed 14 warriors ranging in level from 38 - 49. The 49 actually attacked me while I was engaged in combat with a mob and still died. Three times.
So I thought - bad player. Let me see what happens. The next day I'm in STV killing Bloodsail and a dreanei warrior attacks me mid-fight. I killed her six times or so. So I'm wondering - is it just my gear and such, or do I keep running into crappy warriors? Or does it all change at level 70 and warriors start eating us for breakfast?
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reserve judgement until level 70 where this game is "balanced".
My ret paladin at level 35 did some of the best DPS ive ever seen on any character for the level. And we all know how that pans out at 70.
My ret paladin at level 35 did some of the best DPS ive ever seen on any character for the level. And we all know how that pans out at 70.
From levels 1-50, rogues generally facepwn every other class in straight 1v1 battles. This isn't to say that they're intentionally overpowererd in PvP, just that they need to be strong to some degree or it would be impossible to level them in PvE.
Once you hit 70, where PvP is actually and truly "balanced," you'll get Overpowered so hard, your ********* will ache at the very sight of an Arms warrior.
Once you hit 70, where PvP is actually and truly "balanced," you'll get Overpowered so hard, your ********* will ache at the very sight of an Arms warrior.
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
At 70 warrs are ALOT more powerfull than at low lvls. Assuming same gear lvl a warrior who knows what he is doing will be pretty hard. I have to say i did not tested the new hemo spec ....maybe that will even the odds a bit ..dunno what to say about that.
What pisses me off is that a warr(even a bad player) at 70 will have to push 3 damn buttons to beat a rogue ...that would be ms,overpower and intercept/fear. That's all...no skills just a boring 3 buttons fight. If his ms crits u'r toast.
Arena is a different thing tho. It depends on your the team. And resilience.
What pisses me off is that a warr(even a bad player) at 70 will have to push 3 damn buttons to beat a rogue ...that would be ms,overpower and intercept/fear. That's all...no skills just a boring 3 buttons fight. If his ms crits u'r toast.
Arena is a different thing tho. It depends on your the team. And resilience.
Yeah Arms warriors really do hurt...a lot. With hemo being buffed up a little they are probably better to handle now (I wouldn't know for sure though since I haven't specced hemo yet) but yeah they "omgwtfpwn" me in bg's and I can't do anything about it /cry.
BiOhAcKeR wrote:
Yeah Arms warriors really do hurt...a lot. With hemo being buffed up a little they are probably better to handle now (I wouldn't know for sure though since I haven't specced hemo yet) but yeah they "omgwtfpwn" me in bg's and I can't do anything about it /cry.
Yeah it gets pretty brutal. Ive torn into warriors who are almost dead and have had them come damn close to killing me. if they got full HP and i dont have a pocket healer or at least another partner, i just move on. >_> go go stealth.
continuing this topic, I have learned the rock-paper-scissor well for rogues, but what is it for warriors? I know they eat us for breakfast, and they get wrecked by mages, but what about the other classes?
paladins can do well against them too. I ended up 1v1-ing a warrior in arena (on my pally), he had about full life and i had a good amount of mana. It took a long time, but i whittled him down. It was pretty epic. I used several bubbles. :D It would be even easier now that i have 600+ spell dmg to go with my healing.
Warrior pre 70 is a balanced class that does moderately heavy DPS and has high defense and highish HP. Warrior at 70 is an extremely overpowered class that does extremely heavy DPS with extremely high defense and extremely high HP.
The thing that makes warriors overpowered is their gear. An arena geared warrior will absolutely crush a rogue, or anyone for that matter. As you said there are a few exceptions (a no name rogue defeated possibly the greatest warrior in the game a few weeks back, was a huge upset), but usually expect to lose to a warrior as any class save paladin really if they're geared.
It's "balance", they suck before they get gear apparently.
Someone put it best with the following:
"Rogues are Scissors. Mages, Locks, Priests and Shaman are Paper. Warriors are Rock. Scissors beats paper, paper beats rock until rock hits 70 and gets geared. Then rock beats paper too and would beat scissors but cannot find scissors cause they're invisible".
The thing that makes warriors overpowered is their gear. An arena geared warrior will absolutely crush a rogue, or anyone for that matter. As you said there are a few exceptions (a no name rogue defeated possibly the greatest warrior in the game a few weeks back, was a huge upset), but usually expect to lose to a warrior as any class save paladin really if they're geared.
It's "balance", they suck before they get gear apparently.
Someone put it best with the following:
"Rogues are Scissors. Mages, Locks, Priests and Shaman are Paper. Warriors are Rock. Scissors beats paper, paper beats rock until rock hits 70 and gets geared. Then rock beats paper too and would beat scissors but cannot find scissors cause they're invisible".
Shaolinz wrote:
"Rogues are Scissors. Mages, Locks, Priests and Shaman are Paper. Warriors are Rock. Scissors beats paper, paper beats rock until rock hits 70 and gets geared. Then rock beats paper too and would beat scissors but cannot find scissors cause they're invisible".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJWeWMKfa3g
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.
Thank you Demea, couldn't remember where I heard that from.
3-5 rupture kite people.... sigh did all the old school tricks die at the same i vendored my vis'keg and FOTF?
warriors generally beat out rogues... a rogue who knows what hes doing can wi the fight very often, but a good warrior with a good pick of gear to choose from is just out of most rogues reachs
warriors generally beat out rogues... a rogue who knows what hes doing can wi the fight very often, but a good warrior with a good pick of gear to choose from is just out of most rogues reachs
Quote:
3-5 rupture kite people.... sigh did all the old school tricks die at the same i vendored my vis'keg and FOTF?
Yeah, AR/Prep and I have been destroying warriors. The occasional geared MS warrior with a couple lucky crits can win but any other variety just hasn't had a chance.
Ugh... warriors... Don't get me started there. I hate the un-CloSeable slow, the deep wounds keeping me from stealth, the phat crits that easily surpass my pitiful DPS on their 10k plate, and then I notice they're using a Crystalforged Waraxe or some blue crap, the 'immunity' to evasion (Ok, so maybe it's been mathematically proven that Evasion still helps... but really, I can't notice it.), the massive resistance to all my vital cheap shots, kidney shots and whatnot...
Last Friday in 2v2, me and my druid partner were teamed up against a warrior/pally combo. We'd been having trouble with them in the past for obvious reasons, so we decided to just ***** it, blow everything right off the bat and try to get the pally down ASAP, instead of our usual plan (DPS the pally until bubble, save CCs until then and just keep the warrior off our healer until bubble wears off, making the bubble act more as a reset instead of them getting all healed with us getting whacked on for 12 seconds with no way to actually hurt them.) Surprisingly, it almost worked, except for the fact that that warrior had put one point in Iron Will too many for me. The pally and druid went down almost simultaneously, leaving me and the warrior around 50%. I still had a Regrowth on me for a few seconds, so I just bashed away at the warrior as best I could being 41/20, and then gouge/run like hell/bandaid once deep wounds wore off.
So, I whacked on the warrior again, blinded (had cooled down already due to the fact that I'm using Retainer's Blade plus the S2 shiv and this warrior is in easily 3/5 S2), bandaided one last time and charged in.
Warrior was at 6%, I vanished and cheapshotted... he resisted. End of story.
Last Friday in 2v2, me and my druid partner were teamed up against a warrior/pally combo. We'd been having trouble with them in the past for obvious reasons, so we decided to just ***** it, blow everything right off the bat and try to get the pally down ASAP, instead of our usual plan (DPS the pally until bubble, save CCs until then and just keep the warrior off our healer until bubble wears off, making the bubble act more as a reset instead of them getting all healed with us getting whacked on for 12 seconds with no way to actually hurt them.) Surprisingly, it almost worked, except for the fact that that warrior had put one point in Iron Will too many for me. The pally and druid went down almost simultaneously, leaving me and the warrior around 50%. I still had a Regrowth on me for a few seconds, so I just bashed away at the warrior as best I could being 41/20, and then gouge/run like hell/bandaid once deep wounds wore off.
So, I whacked on the warrior again, blinded (had cooled down already due to the fact that I'm using Retainer's Blade plus the S2 shiv and this warrior is in easily 3/5 S2), bandaided one last time and charged in.
Warrior was at 6%, I vanished and cheapshotted... he resisted. End of story.
morgorg wrote:
Warrior was at 6%, I vanished and cheapshotted... he resisted. End of story.
That was a rare moment for the good old ambush...
Just a tip for KS on warriors, especially orcs:
Gouge, then KS. You can't resist a stun while incapacitated.
Gouge, then KS. You can't resist a stun while incapacitated.
MAYBE, with an AR/Hemo/Prep build I'm now able to beat equally geared warriors. In a 1v1 duel situation, that is.
But in a 2v2 arena setting, it's much different for two reasons:
1) the warrior is hard hitting and tough at all times... during the entire fight... while I'm slippery enough to avoid hits when I hit evade (double evade with Prep)... So I better make sure that I'm slippery at the right time, cause if a fear interfers with the fight, my evade/BF/AR session might very quickly become a wasted one...
2) sure, I can last longer against a warrior and possibly long enough to kill him, but he's usually hitting super hard on my partner who's not going to last that long and ... when my partner dies, my evade/BF/AR session is usually over... and so am I.
So, yes, I'd say that in arenas, Warriors > Rogues.
This being said, rogues are hell of a lot of fun to play. If I could flip my fingers and have a lvl 70 warrior instead of my lvl 70 rogue, with equal gear... well I wouldn't, because fun is what matters most to me.
nostra
But in a 2v2 arena setting, it's much different for two reasons:
1) the warrior is hard hitting and tough at all times... during the entire fight... while I'm slippery enough to avoid hits when I hit evade (double evade with Prep)... So I better make sure that I'm slippery at the right time, cause if a fear interfers with the fight, my evade/BF/AR session might very quickly become a wasted one...
2) sure, I can last longer against a warrior and possibly long enough to kill him, but he's usually hitting super hard on my partner who's not going to last that long and ... when my partner dies, my evade/BF/AR session is usually over... and so am I.
So, yes, I'd say that in arenas, Warriors > Rogues.
This being said, rogues are hell of a lot of fun to play. If I could flip my fingers and have a lvl 70 warrior instead of my lvl 70 rogue, with equal gear... well I wouldn't, because fun is what matters most to me.
nostra
As sick as warriors are, I've noticed lately (post 2.3) that the other class I have enjoyed PvPing with most (not Arena, which may make a huge difference) is actually Hunter.
Guildy has a Hunter that's the same level as my Rogue and we do a lot of world PvP. Between his CC's and mine we can cut down a party twice our size, which is nice. And when we add in another Guildy whose a Mage... it has me wondering:
Would Rogue, Mage and Hunter be a good 3v3 team or should we cycle out the Mage with maybe a Druid or Pally for the healing?
I ask because I'm looking to start assembling a 2v2 and 3v3 team for this coming season.
Guildy has a Hunter that's the same level as my Rogue and we do a lot of world PvP. Between his CC's and mine we can cut down a party twice our size, which is nice. And when we add in another Guildy whose a Mage... it has me wondering:
Would Rogue, Mage and Hunter be a good 3v3 team or should we cycle out the Mage with maybe a Druid or Pally for the healing?
I ask because I'm looking to start assembling a 2v2 and 3v3 team for this coming season.
I prefer Druid healer in 3s, and anything but in 5s, just a personal preference. Running 3 DPS is gonna be kind of rough if you guys don't have proper teamwork, other Druids will cause issues so yeah, hope you can burn down whoever you need to burn down quick enough.
vyodar wrote:
Would Rogue, Mage and Hunter be a good 3v3 team or should we cycle out the Mage with maybe a Druid or Pally for the healing?
I'd say NO. Even in a 2v2, it's pretty tough without any form of heal. In a 3v3, I'd say it'll be even harder.
nostra
Quote:
Warrior pre 70 is a balanced class that does moderately heavy DPS and has high defense and highish HP. Warrior at 70 is an extremely overpowered class that does extremely heavy DPS with extremely high defense and extremely high HP.
The thing that makes warriors overpowered is their gear. An arena geared warrior will absolutely crush a rogue, or anyone for that matter. As you said there are a few exceptions (a no name rogue defeated possibly the greatest warrior in the game a few weeks back, was a huge upset), but usually expect to lose to a warrior as any class save paladin really if they're geared.
The thing that makes warriors overpowered is their gear. An arena geared warrior will absolutely crush a rogue, or anyone for that matter. As you said there are a few exceptions (a no name rogue defeated possibly the greatest warrior in the game a few weeks back, was a huge upset), but usually expect to lose to a warrior as any class save paladin really if they're geared.
Phobia much? Warriors are still a fairly weak 1 v 1 Class against anything other than Rogues at very high level of gear. Healers aren't going to get bursted down once they reach decent Resilience levels and we still get the bejeesus kited out of us. That's not to say that Warriors can't win - they do - but you won't beat a Shadow Priest (or normal Priest anymore, really), Warlock, Mage, Druid, Resto Shaman consistently assuming equal gear and competency. In a general dueling environment Warriors leave a lot to be desired; where they shine is in _very specific_ dueling environments or in situations where there's backup, but that's how the class is designed.
Of course, a fair amount of this is dependant on _your_ spec. If all cooldowns are up a Prep Rogue should win most of the time; Riposte is also a huge boost against Warriors as a Rogue.
Quote:
Just a tip for KS on warriors, especially orcs:
Gouge, then KS. You can't resist a stun while incapacitated.
Gouge, then KS. You can't resist a stun while incapacitated.
You know, I've never even heard of this before, although it sounds logical; you can't Dodge while stunned, so they may have tied the stun 'resist' to a Dodge-style avoidance rather than just a chance for it to fail. Hm.
Quote:
morgorg wrote:
Warrior was at 6%, I vanished and cheapshotted... he resisted. End of story.
That was a rare moment for the good old ambush...
Warrior was at 6%, I vanished and cheapshotted... he resisted. End of story.
That was a rare moment for the good old ambush...
I had deep wounds on me and I didn't want to risk waiting for a tick to get behind him... Also, as I have 0/5 Master of Deception, he'd probably see me and taken the last bit out of me
vyodar wrote:
As sick as warriors are, I've noticed lately (post 2.3) that the other class I have enjoyed PvPing with most (not Arena, which may make a huge difference) is actually Hunter.
Guildy has a Hunter that's the same level as my Rogue and we do a lot of world PvP. Between his CC's and mine we can cut down a party twice our size, which is nice. And when we add in another Guildy whose a Mage... it has me wondering:
Would Rogue, Mage and Hunter be a good 3v3 team or should we cycle out the Mage with maybe a Druid or Pally for the healing?
I ask because I'm looking to start assembling a 2v2 and 3v3 team for this coming season.
Guildy has a Hunter that's the same level as my Rogue and we do a lot of world PvP. Between his CC's and mine we can cut down a party twice our size, which is nice. And when we add in another Guildy whose a Mage... it has me wondering:
Would Rogue, Mage and Hunter be a good 3v3 team or should we cycle out the Mage with maybe a Druid or Pally for the healing?
I ask because I'm looking to start assembling a 2v2 and 3v3 team for this coming season.
Rogue/Druid/Mage is amazing. Lose the hunter.
Quote:
You know, I've never even heard of this before, although it sounds logical; you can't Dodge while stunned, so they may have tied the stun 'resist' to a Dodge-style avoidance rather than just a chance for it to fail. Hm.
It's true. Number one trick for Rogues dueling.
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