Good day, I'm stuck in a dilemma right now. Two of my friends want to be an MT when we start raiding. One is a Paladin, the other is a warrior, the Paladin friend of mine says he will just end up deleting his character if I take the warrior friend over him to raid with. But on the other hand, my warrior friend wants to MT but not OT since he doesn't want to collect dps gear, and Prot dps is a little less than stellar.
What my question to you guys is; Are there situations in raiding where a Paladin tank would do better than a Warrior tank, and vice versa? I'm referring to Karazhan, Zul'Aman, and Gruul's Lair to begin with, mostly Karazhan though since we will be starting there in the next month or so. The guild is mostly RL friends, and both of these people are friends of mine and friends of each other. As the GM of the Guild, I'm just trying to keep both parties happy and get to raiding smoothly. If they are the same, any suggestions how I could fix this?
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Altrizia wrote:
Good day, I'm stuck in a dilemma right now. Two of my friends want to be an MT when we start raiding. One is a Paladin, the other is a warrior, the Paladin friend of mine says he will just end up deleting his character if I take the warrior friend over him to raid with. But on the other hand, my warrior friend wants to MT but not OT since he doesn't want to collect dps gear, and Prot dps is a little less than stellar.
What my question to you guys is; Are there situations in raiding where a Paladin tank would do better than a Warrior tank, and vice versa? I'm referring to Karazhan, Zul'Aman, and Gruul's Lair to begin with, mostly Karazhan though since we will be starting there in the next month or so. The guild is mostly RL friends, and both of these people are friends of mine and friends of each other. As the GM of the Guild, I'm just trying to keep both parties happy and get to raiding smoothly. If they are the same, any suggestions how I could fix this?
What my question to you guys is; Are there situations in raiding where a Paladin tank would do better than a Warrior tank, and vice versa? I'm referring to Karazhan, Zul'Aman, and Gruul's Lair to begin with, mostly Karazhan though since we will be starting there in the next month or so. The guild is mostly RL friends, and both of these people are friends of mine and friends of each other. As the GM of the Guild, I'm just trying to keep both parties happy and get to raiding smoothly. If they are the same, any suggestions how I could fix this?
wow, sounds like quite a dilema. if any more experienced raider wants to comment that'd be good. but i saw a thread that touched on this a while back. pallys are typically better at tanking lot of trash mobs and holding them in place. warriors have a slight hp advantage and are better (barely) at raid boss tanking. what was suggested was rather than one tank being MT start to finish, the pally tanking would get you to the boss faster and the switch MT for boss to have warrior MT there. they'd each be tanking in their strength and have a very important part. they would also, though, both need OT gear sets, but wouldn't have to feel like they're being limted to only ever off tanking. you might try suggesting an approach like that and see if it can work for both of them.
Pally OT or even MT works wonders in Kara, IF he is geared properly. You can't run most stuff with only 1 tank(unless you have a ton of CC) so tell them to drop the ego crap and take turns being a MT. It only hurts your guild in the end, you can't gear up ONE tank.
There are a decent amount of AOE pulls in Kara and some spots you need 2 tanks or a very well geared Rogue to Dodge tank.
There are a decent amount of AOE pulls in Kara and some spots you need 2 tanks or a very well geared Rogue to Dodge tank.
This isn't my kind of answer most of the time but... I think they both need to grow up a bit? The whole "I wanna be MT" thing is not unheard of, and a bit childish in my opinion.
However, since saying that doesn't really help, let's see a few facts.
Warriors have many more "Oh shi-!" buttons, making them the preferred choice for new encounters. If you're newly making your way into Kara, this can come in handy.
The first boss, Attumen, is much better tanked by a Warrior since he can disarm him and cut his damage significantly. There may be a few other bosses (Romulo, I believe) who can be disarmed as well.
Nightbane, the last optional boss, can be tanked most effectively by a Warrior because of Fears. However, with some Tremor Totems and Fear Ward, a Pally could probably perform equally well. It just requires more timing and luck.
Now, on the other hand, Pally has the best AoE threat generation ever. Ideal for groups of mobs or adds in specific fights. Obviously also very good for bosses, minus the emergency buttons.
As for off-spec roles, it's true that Prot DPS sucks. That's true for both classes I believe. (Unless the Pally is getting hit, obviously) However, the Pally could heal when not needed to tank which would be better than what little DPS the Warr could do.
In the end, though, you'll very often need both a MT and an OT. Some bosses require it. Some bosses need no tank at all. (Shade of Aran, for example) So in the end it should balance out.
So yeah. Tell your Pally to stop crying and get some spare healing set, and tell your Warr to stop being lazy and get some half-decent DPS stuff. Or maybe let them talk to each other. GMs get too much pressure, in my opinion.
However, since saying that doesn't really help, let's see a few facts.
Warriors have many more "Oh shi-!" buttons, making them the preferred choice for new encounters. If you're newly making your way into Kara, this can come in handy.
The first boss, Attumen, is much better tanked by a Warrior since he can disarm him and cut his damage significantly. There may be a few other bosses (Romulo, I believe) who can be disarmed as well.
Nightbane, the last optional boss, can be tanked most effectively by a Warrior because of Fears. However, with some Tremor Totems and Fear Ward, a Pally could probably perform equally well. It just requires more timing and luck.
Now, on the other hand, Pally has the best AoE threat generation ever. Ideal for groups of mobs or adds in specific fights. Obviously also very good for bosses, minus the emergency buttons.
As for off-spec roles, it's true that Prot DPS sucks. That's true for both classes I believe. (Unless the Pally is getting hit, obviously) However, the Pally could heal when not needed to tank which would be better than what little DPS the Warr could do.
In the end, though, you'll very often need both a MT and an OT. Some bosses require it. Some bosses need no tank at all. (Shade of Aran, for example) So in the end it should balance out.
So yeah. Tell your Pally to stop crying and get some spare healing set, and tell your Warr to stop being lazy and get some half-decent DPS stuff. Or maybe let them talk to each other. GMs get too much pressure, in my opinion.
I agree with the above posters. Try an approach where your Paly will be the trash "MT" while your Warrior takes front for bosses, or alternate them in both roles. You will be needing 2 tanks regardless and a couple fights there really isn't an "off tank" as both tanks need to fight for aggro (Moroes, those Ushers leading to Opera, etc ...).
This is a very loaded question to ask me, if you've seen my posts in the past. I'm firmly against a paladin being the guild's main tank because I simply believe warriors are more traditional tanks and there will never be a situation that a warrior is unable to tank, but a paladin can. On the flip side, while the fear nerf and the sheer skill of some paladin tanks can overcome it, there are still some situations that make paladin tanking hard. Things fear... things silence... Both of those situations are at LEAST difficult for a paladin, while a half-descent warrior is completely unphased.
If your friend is SO childish that he would delete his character if you took the warrior, then let him, because if you give in to this threat, he'll just use this threat later on to get you to do something else you don't want. I'd wager he's bluffing anyway.
If your friend is SO childish that he would delete his character if you took the warrior, then let him, because if you give in to this threat, he'll just use this threat later on to get you to do something else you don't want. I'd wager he's bluffing anyway.
44 posts
I really wish this was a loaded question; and that it was a joke. I don't intend it to be loaded, nor is it a joke. It comes down to this; If I don't take the Paladin as the MT in 99% of raid situations, he will gquit, and next time I see him downtown it's going to be a /punchtotheface for me. He WOULD do it, trust me. The warrior, who will be referred to as TT, thinks the idea of taking turns tanking mobs that don't do any of the "bad" things that make Paladins unable to tank them unless you take a lot of precautions is a good one. The Paladin, who will be DM from here on; has not been told of this plan just yet. I explained to TT that in raiding you need more than 1 single tank, and later on you might need 3-5 in a couple(I can think of 1 right now, the phoenix in The Eye), and they will all need gear, not just 1 person. He's cool with it, but then he told me this; DM said that if any tankin gear drops, its his regardless. I don't know where he got that idea from, and the only time I ever told him he would have rights on something is if the staff dropped off The Curator, and his only roll competition was someone who just joined. I can't start taking reservations on gear for people, that'd end up destroying the guild due to favouritism, and I don't want that.
DM has a 70 warlock, as well as his paladin, and TT has only his warrior, who is currently protection spec. TT has been playing longer, and has only ever played his warrior(recently he made a mage to keep himself occupied while we get a couple more people ready). DM refuses to raid heal, spot heal, offheal, help heal, use heals, and any other way you want to say it. If he isn't tanking, he isn't playing. Thats the mentality I got struck with this morning when I met him for coffee after I got done work. How do I answer to something like that, when if I say the wrong thing, he's gunna come at me like a spider monkey?
I will agree with you guys in that this is simply childish, and DM's attitude is ludicrous. But this is the decision I've been placed in, and they're both looking to me for a resolution. It's kind of weak that this is about a damn game, but unfortunetly thats just how it is right now. But what do you guys think of that? In situations where both classes can tank effectively, it'll come down to who tanked the last boss. 50/50, split it down the middle, divide and conquer. Both tanks need gear, both tanks will get gear. If one week TT tanked Maiden, next week DM gets to tank maiden. When TT is done tanking maiden, DM will tank the next boss. That probably won't be an issue though, where it'll come down to the wire is when you need both people. Attumen is a no-brainer. Disarm = win in that fight for sure, but what about Moroes? Should I put DM on moroes as MT and TT as OT? Switch it around? Flip a coin?
I'm just trying to find an alternative that will keep DM happy, keep my face intact, and keep everyone happy. That's the biggest thing for me though, keeping everyone happy. They're my IRL friends, I don't want to show favouritism to one and not the other because that isn't how it is with me. I had the idea that some nights TT is the MT, and some nights DM is the MT, and DM basically said to me "So you're f***ing me and putting me on the sideline?" He really has no confidence in TT's ability to tank, due to his earlier attempts at it that were less than impressive. Recently he has gotten a LOT better, tanking multiple mobs like he's been doing it for years, his single target threat generation is very nice. DM told me though this morning; when I can grab hate off him in seconds, he isn't going to raid MT anything. What he let out was that he only let 1 sunder appear before he let loose warlock fury. I've taken my rogue into BM with TT, and as long as I didn't poke the elites in the *** at the start of the fight, glancing at my aggro bars and hitting Feign every once in a while was enough to keep aggro off me. I don't know about you guys, but that seems like a fairly decent tank.
I'm stuck at a crossroads here, and I'm hoping you guys can help me decide what to do. I don't want to hurt anyone by picking one over the other, but I also don't want to hold back guild progression because of a poor decision.
DM has a 70 warlock, as well as his paladin, and TT has only his warrior, who is currently protection spec. TT has been playing longer, and has only ever played his warrior(recently he made a mage to keep himself occupied while we get a couple more people ready). DM refuses to raid heal, spot heal, offheal, help heal, use heals, and any other way you want to say it. If he isn't tanking, he isn't playing. Thats the mentality I got struck with this morning when I met him for coffee after I got done work. How do I answer to something like that, when if I say the wrong thing, he's gunna come at me like a spider monkey?
I will agree with you guys in that this is simply childish, and DM's attitude is ludicrous. But this is the decision I've been placed in, and they're both looking to me for a resolution. It's kind of weak that this is about a damn game, but unfortunetly thats just how it is right now. But what do you guys think of that? In situations where both classes can tank effectively, it'll come down to who tanked the last boss. 50/50, split it down the middle, divide and conquer. Both tanks need gear, both tanks will get gear. If one week TT tanked Maiden, next week DM gets to tank maiden. When TT is done tanking maiden, DM will tank the next boss. That probably won't be an issue though, where it'll come down to the wire is when you need both people. Attumen is a no-brainer. Disarm = win in that fight for sure, but what about Moroes? Should I put DM on moroes as MT and TT as OT? Switch it around? Flip a coin?
I'm just trying to find an alternative that will keep DM happy, keep my face intact, and keep everyone happy. That's the biggest thing for me though, keeping everyone happy. They're my IRL friends, I don't want to show favouritism to one and not the other because that isn't how it is with me. I had the idea that some nights TT is the MT, and some nights DM is the MT, and DM basically said to me "So you're f***ing me and putting me on the sideline?" He really has no confidence in TT's ability to tank, due to his earlier attempts at it that were less than impressive. Recently he has gotten a LOT better, tanking multiple mobs like he's been doing it for years, his single target threat generation is very nice. DM told me though this morning; when I can grab hate off him in seconds, he isn't going to raid MT anything. What he let out was that he only let 1 sunder appear before he let loose warlock fury. I've taken my rogue into BM with TT, and as long as I didn't poke the elites in the *** at the start of the fight, glancing at my aggro bars and hitting Feign every once in a while was enough to keep aggro off me. I don't know about you guys, but that seems like a fairly decent tank.
I'm stuck at a crossroads here, and I'm hoping you guys can help me decide what to do. I don't want to hurt anyone by picking one over the other, but I also don't want to hold back guild progression because of a poor decision.
Get more guild members and get 2 runs going, each having one of them as the MT? Get a bi-weekly thing going where one week one is the main tank and the other week the other is the main tank and whatever tanking equipment drops it is up to the MT to decide who gets it (either keep it for himself or give it to the other tank if he already has the item or has a better item).
And if that doesn't work, double murder/suicide fixes everything.
And if that doesn't work, double murder/suicide fixes everything.
Quote:
They're my IRL friends
You mean, one is your friend and the other a manipulating *******. Sorry, that's just how it comes off. Doing what he does is not what I'd expect from a real friend.
Halt things, go to a gym and work out, come back and punch him before he does.
Cap's idea is good too, but you'll need an OT for both runs so that may require more trouble than it is worth. To let the Pally roll on everything he wants would be stupid and submissive.
I'd punch him in the face for you, cause seriously I see no other reasonable alternative. I hope you can knock some sense into him, even if it makes him leave WoW. It'll just be one less crybaby for everyone to deal with.
I know you consider him your friend, but he's putting you through too much stress for something so insignificant.
Selverein wrote:
Quote:
They're my IRL friends
You mean, one is your friend and the other a manipulating *******. Sorry, that's just how it comes off. Doing what he does is not what I'd expect from a real friend.
Here's the deal. From my understanding (assuming raids are like 5-mans in this regard) everyone sort of needs to work together as a team. If your pally isn't willing to do that before you even GET to the content then he's going to make things awful for everyone else involved inside of it.
Frankly, with that attitude? Friend or no I'd just drop the paladin - and explain to him exactly why you're dropping him.
He's not your friend.
This DM kid sounds like a prick to put it bluntly. I dont know man imo you need to find yourself a new friend, I mean come on he would actually punch you out over a video game? That kid has issues. Either tell him to lighten up and at least try to gather some healing gear or tell him to roll a damn warrior because Paladins are a HYBRID class.
If he's threatening to /gquit because he can't have his way, then I say good. Let him. If it was anyone other than your friend acting this way I imagine you'd have already booted him. I would. Guild raids are supposed to be just that: for the good of the guild. It behooves you to have both tanks geared.
Friends are supposed to be people you can be completely open an honest with. And right now, it sounds to me like "TT" is being completely reasonable and accomodating while "DM" is being nothing short of a childish, selfish prick. And you need to tell him that.
Friends are supposed to be people you can be completely open an honest with. And right now, it sounds to me like "TT" is being completely reasonable and accomodating while "DM" is being nothing short of a childish, selfish prick. And you need to tell him that.
Selverein wrote:
Quote:
They're my IRL friends
You mean, one is your friend and the other a manipulating *******. Sorry, that's just how it comes off. Doing what he does is not what I'd expect from a real friend.
run 2 ten mans. most of if not all of the time you will need 2-3 tanks for 25s, meaning you will need one more person to tank up. I would get a warrior to **** off the loot horder warrior *wink.
HKM needs 1 tank for maulgar, a OT for the priest and another for the warlock to keep it tight. Having 3 tanks at Gruul will not hurt either if your dps can keep up with Gruul and avoid dying to cave-ins and shatters.
You will need 2 tanks and 1 off tank to do SSC just for trash mobs. Its the same deal in TK.
As for loot, well the guild decides whether gearing the main tank who will be taking the punishment from Gruul and beyond is more important. Guild MTs normally end up with negative dkp because of this. They get tanking gear but they do not have points to spend on toys. Expect TT to be "extremely" bored and really bothered when you are not raiding, cos my guild's MT has several dpsing alts (I would think that he converted from rogue main to warrior main as the guilded needed a MT).
Tankadins are fine, they just a nice hp boost as well making them more sturdy. Each tanking class has a certain advantage over each other while the warrior appears to be most well rounded of the 3.
What I would do is sit em both down and tell them that the status of the Guild MT is a double edged sword. Having that title means that if you lose aggro the whole raid will stare at you. Sure it sounds and feels great to be the "hero" but do they really want to be the "hero" cos they can or they want to be the "hero" cos being the "hero" is cool?
I am glad my guild MT actually wants to relieve himself of being the CL for warriors. HE wanted to pass that role to the current OT so he can concentrate on helping the GM run the guild and doing what he does best tank bosses.
HKM needs 1 tank for maulgar, a OT for the priest and another for the warlock to keep it tight. Having 3 tanks at Gruul will not hurt either if your dps can keep up with Gruul and avoid dying to cave-ins and shatters.
You will need 2 tanks and 1 off tank to do SSC just for trash mobs. Its the same deal in TK.
As for loot, well the guild decides whether gearing the main tank who will be taking the punishment from Gruul and beyond is more important. Guild MTs normally end up with negative dkp because of this. They get tanking gear but they do not have points to spend on toys. Expect TT to be "extremely" bored and really bothered when you are not raiding, cos my guild's MT has several dpsing alts (I would think that he converted from rogue main to warrior main as the guilded needed a MT).
Tankadins are fine, they just a nice hp boost as well making them more sturdy. Each tanking class has a certain advantage over each other while the warrior appears to be most well rounded of the 3.
What I would do is sit em both down and tell them that the status of the Guild MT is a double edged sword. Having that title means that if you lose aggro the whole raid will stare at you. Sure it sounds and feels great to be the "hero" but do they really want to be the "hero" cos they can or they want to be the "hero" cos being the "hero" is cool?
I am glad my guild MT actually wants to relieve himself of being the CL for warriors. HE wanted to pass that role to the current OT so he can concentrate on helping the GM run the guild and doing what he does best tank bosses.
cancerous wrote:
a OT for the priest
We use a rogue.
OP, recruit a panzerkin and tell that paladin he's now a healbot because he's being a whiny little *****.
Seriously though, 2 MTs can work, but this paladin is being a primadonna whiny ***** just because he knows the GL irl. What is he, your friend, or your girlfriend? Because only one of those has the right to demand to be the center of attention.
And let me give you a hint, it's the one who sexes you.
Celcio wrote:
Here's the deal. From my understanding (assuming raids are like 5-mans in this regard) everyone sort of needs to work together as a team. If your pally isn't willing to do that before you even GET to the content then he's going to make things awful for everyone else involved inside of it.
Frankly, with that attitude? Friend or no I'd just drop the paladin - and explain to him exactly why you're dropping him.
He's not your friend.
Frankly, with that attitude? Friend or no I'd just drop the paladin - and explain to him exactly why you're dropping him.
He's not your friend.
I think this quote sums up what I would say the best. If said Paladin isn't willing to do what's needed to help anyone other than himself, forget him, cause that's the only way you'll progress.
to me it sounds like they both want MT just so they can get the best tank gear first then probably quit the guild anyway. Could always make the duel to see which to keep, take some bets make some money on the side. I'd personally go and find a new warrior and paladin.
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